Knife attack at California Target store: Some thoughts.

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Some stores carry bb gun and paintball markers, but then again some have them locked up.

With a little prep time, a paintball marker could be a perfectly adequate weapon. A few paintballs in the face from 25 feet would stop any attack, unless the attacker is on some very serious drugs. In that case, a good volley would still fill their eyes with paint.
 
Depends on what department you are in. Be REAL useful if you happened to be in hardware or sporting goods vs bedding. Course if all else fails, you always have the actual SHELF itself at your disposal.

Precisely. Even a shelf would be a good tool against a knife-wielding madwoman. Above there's a witty reference to throwing linens and towels, but actually if you're going up against a knife or two, wrapping something around your weak hand can be an effective move. A towel can be snapped like a whip up at the face of the attacker as a distraction. Really, almost anything at hand in a store could be useful, even if all you're doing is throwing boxes.
 
So how does one stop something like this? Ofcourse I would hope lethal force does not have to be used, but maybe biting the attacker might help?

If you're being attacked by a knife wielding lunatic in LA, there's a good chance you might get AIDS if you bite them.
 
bulldog10

Advice to myself: Choke her to death with heel dust.

Keep your powder dry and lots of it.
 
Books, sockets, cans of coke, soap, containers of lotion, beer/wine bottles, small kitchen appliances all seem like decent things to chuck at a knife wielding assailant in a pinch.

Golf clubs, baseball bats, light bench press bars, tall lamps, and small clothing racks would be good for swinging if you had to.

Shelves, Rubbermaid boxes and linens could be used as shields, and if you could throw a lot of unfolded sheets at the assailant, you might trip them up and slow them down enough to subdue them.

And finally, in many stores, the shelving units aren't anchored to the ground (this might not be true in Ca), so if you were in the next aisle over, you could try to knock over the shelving unit on the assailant.
 
But if others were in immediate danger, like that guy getting stabbed repeatedly in the back, I don't think I could stand idly by, twittering the stab-by-stab action, nor could I so easily run away -- after all, if that were me getting stabbed repeatedly in the back, I'd sure appreciate someone doing something about it. Anything within reach that could be used to effectively spray, stun, blind, bash, distract would likely find immediate use, and if I could take the knifer off her feet, all the better. The aim would be to stay out of her range while capitalizing upon my own.

In this situation, I think I would try to grab anything within range and smack the individual who, I assume is concentrating on stabbing the guy in the back. I'm heavy enough that I suspect a full bore body tackle would knock her off her feet and allow me to get some degree of control while others (I hope) help to pin her down of disarm her.

However, if all the others are busy texting and tweeting I my be in a world of hurt in a hurry!

Then again, if the individual involved is a 6'3" 360 pound guy I may just re-think this response.
 
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Distance is a good strategy. Run away. Or in a store with big racks, climb up to the top of one. If the attacker lingers, throw things at him. Canned soup as projectiles is better than nothing. Or pick up a washing machine and chase the person out of the store with it ;-)
 
Well, now you'll probably have to wait for the stockboy to get a manager with a key to the display case everytime you want to buy a steak knife at Target. Then they'll escort you to the cash register like you're a criminal while they carry your merchandise. Probably even have to train the manager on safe knife handling thereby driving up the cost and price of the knife. That's just great.
 
But what about some non-lethal opotions like this: http://www.kimberamerica.com/shop/product.php?xProd=2&xSec=2 Anyway, I did some digging, turns out you can't carry that either in California. :banghead:

That's too bad, although you are allowed to carry OC/pepper spray, which I do at all times (yes, I live in the PRC).

So how does one stop something like this? Ofcourse I would hope lethal force does not have to be used, but maybe biting the attacker might help? :rolleyes:

After I blind her with pepper spray (or at least highly distract her with it), I'd forcibly remove the knife from her hand and subdue her if possible. If, on the other hand, she's a 6' 200-pound weightlifter, then I might have to apply a choke hold or punch her lights out. ;) Not that I have a tendency to hit ladies, but this ain't no lady. :)
 
Guys, you don't understand. This is a HUGE victory for the anti's. You see if they actually allowed CCW this woman would have obviously found someone wearing a hidden gun and taken that from him for her glorious rampage rather than using knives. Having no guns obviously deescalated the situation. :rolleyes:

I don't understand how people can't understand that even if we were to regulate knives, criminals will get them. The only people that they disarm are the law abiding citizens who are left with nothing to defend themselves with.
 
Guys, you don't understand. This is a HUGE victory for the anti's. You see if they actually allowed CCW this woman would have obviously found someone wearing a hidden gun and taken that from him for her glorious rampage rather than using knives. Having no guns obviously deescalated the situation. :rolleyes:

Even more to the point, their idea would be that without gun control, the perp would have had a gun and therefore would have killed hundreds of people (maybe a few dozen but hundreds sounds scarier). In their view, this is a textbook example of the success of anti-gun legislation. :rolleyes:

I don't understand how people can't understand that even if we were to regulate knives, criminals will get them. The only people that they disarm are the law abiding citizens who are left with nothing to defend themselves with.

They do understand some of our logic, but in their view we are all murderers who simply haven't decided to go on a rampage yet. :barf: In addition, they view us as the source of guns for criminals, and their ultimate goal is to not allow anybody but law enforcement, the military, and themselves to own guns, which supposedly means that criminals will no longer have guns (outwardly, with the real goal being the disarming of their subjects to protect their hold on power).

The problem is that criminals don't need guns to rob, rape, and kill--knives work just fine, and so do bare hands, especially in the case of rape, and law-abiding citizens still need guns as equalizers. Some of the anti-gun loonies are so blinded by their hatred of guns that they neither see nor accept any logic, while others are convinced that they can eventually keep guns out of the hands of criminals by taking them away from us first. What they both share is their fixation on an inanimate object--a tool--rather than having responsibility for one's actions, and no amount of reasoning or logic can change their basic view of the rest of humanity as subjects and peons who must be controlled by the government. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity (for defenseless victims of crimes), or remorse (for undermining our liberty), or fear (except for armed, free citizens). And they absolutely will not stop--EVER--until they have our guns! :fire:
 
It's very ironic that this happened in a store named TARGET. "My goodness, I feel a sudden need to stab people. Where ever shall I find some?"
 
I think the best part is when instead of calling 911, "McNamara" sends out a Twitter messege. Put down your "social network" and pick up your brain.
 
I'd throw two fast towels followed by a pillowcase and a comforter!
Depends on what department you are in. Be REAL useful if you happened to be in hardware or sporting goods vs bedding.

I once knocked a person completely off their feet and gave them a pretty serious bloody nose with a pillow. It wasn't exacly a 'lethal force' situation, and I'm not sure I'd attempt to repeat the trick vs a knife wielding nutcase, but even bedding would be preferable to wading in bare handed.

R
 
McNamara said she watched helplessly as the woman plunged a knife into the upper back and shoulder of a male shopper

Sickening, but I guess the whole "sheep or sheepdog" thing is true
 
Sickening, but I guess the whole "sheep or sheepdog" thing is true

So if you see a crime occur without a means to immediately stop it, you are a sheep? No, I don't think so. Lots of people witness crimes or events without a means to be able to stop what they see is immediately happening. It happens to CCW folks, law enforcement folks, and military folks.

Being a witness does not mean you are a sheep.
 
IMO, in a state where CCW is pretty much limited to Law Enforcement, they have a special duty to protect others as the state has removed the ability of folks to protect themselves.

Unfortunately for you then the SCOTUS has disagreed. LEO have no duty to protect you. This was proven in a D.C. case where they had the toughest gun laws in the nation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
Two of three female roommates were upstairs when they heard men break in and attack the third. After repeated calls to the police over half an hour, the roommate's screams stopped, and they assumed the police had arrived. They went downstairs and were held captive, raped, robbed, beaten, and forced to commit sexual acts upon one another and to submit to the attackers' sexual demands for 14 hours. The police had lost track of the repeated calls for assistance. DC's highest court ruled that the police do not have a legal responsibility to provide personal protection to individuals, and absolved the police and the city of any liability.

Then the SCOTUS decision:
By a 4-3 decision the court decided that Warren was not entitled to remedy at the bar despite the demonstrable abuse and ineptitude on the part of the police. The court held that official police personnel and the government employing them are not generally liable to victims of criminal acts for a failure to provide adequate police protection.
They went on to say that basically the only people they are legally bound to protect are people they have in their custody. So unless they have arrested you they are not liable or required to protect you.

The only person responsible for protecting you under the law is you.




Any store has tons of weapons. This women herself obtained the two kitchen knives from inside the store.
There is tools everywhere, from shovels, to pick axes, to axes, to hatchets, to wrenches, fire extinguishers, baseball bats, crowbars etc.
Most of the store has weapons, whether you are in the kitchen area, the gardening area, the automotive area the sporting goods area, etc
Those are just what can be immediately picked up and used.
What can be built in a few minutes is even more numerous but less likely to be useful in self defense.

The only reason such a person is not stopped is because nobody chooses to stop her. Any grown man with a heavy object could have dropped her like a sack of potatoes.
Just looking at her I bet picking up the shopping cart and throwing it at her would have ended her day.

From the sounds of it though it was rather quick. The woman took the knives and attacked people in the isle selling cosmetics. I doubt I would have been in that isle.
 
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...Or in a store with big racks, climb up to the top of one. If the attacker lingers, throw things at him...

Why is it when I read this I get the impression of someone standing at the top of the rack throwing things while Biplanes circle and shoot at them?

To running away...I would have a problem doing that. Maybe it is the same flawed mentality that makes me keep failing those "can you survive a zombie apocalypse" quizzed on facebook, but I think I would have a serious problem with turning my back on a group of people being stabbed to death. The only exception would be if I had my kids with me. I would expect my instincts would be to shuttle them out of the situation ASAP. Course after numerous trips to Target I have never encountered a raving lunatic stabbing everyone in sight so who really knows.
 
This story exemplifies why I absolutley :fire:HATE:fire: when people say bad guy(s). Even worse is when a service-member says it.
 
"A few paintballs in the face from 25 feet would stop any attack, unless the attacker is on some very serious drugs"

External drugs are not needed to shrug off an attack. Have you ever seen a boxing match or other "hand to hand" fighting? People can take much more than a few paintballs and for much longer without backing down (and they are tested for drugs).
 
This story exemplifies why I absolutley HATE when people say bad guy(s). Even worse is when a service-member says it.

Why? I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, 'BG' is simply a convenient 2 letter abbreviation for "anyone breaking into my home, attacking me with a knife, attempting to carjack my POS truck, firing 105mm rockets at me, or commiting any other action deserving of an armed response." I don't necessarily mean it as a moral judgement (but on the other hand, a knife wielding nutjob attacking random strangers at the local department store certainly meets the classical definition of 'bad,' even if the offender in this case wasn't a 'guy').

R
 
It seems just as easy to say assailant, or carjacker, or suspect, or enemy (in the case of military) or whatever. When dealing with such serious subjects I think it's best not to take a disney, black and white view of things, especially when it disrespects the deceased.
 
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