Ladder load work up?

[Chewy4480]

I have heard of two different ways to do ladder loads.

First is to load 5 rds for each charge in .3gr jumps from your min to max and then pick your best group and that is your best charge for your rifle.

The other way is to load just 1 rd per charge in .3gr jumps from your min to max. There will be some reds that group together and then you fine tune that group to your gun.

What way works best?

 

[Blue68f100]

On rifle rounds I jump 0.5 gr, loading 5 each. Then I pick out the best and work each side of it. It's hard to tell with just one shot, at least for me. Maybe a F class shooter can get by with 1 but not me. While your doing the workup take good notes on conditions. Then come back and test again with a different conditions, like colder or hotter. Here in TX we get large temp swings. So if your working up a hunting load in the summer it may be different in the winter. Then when it's all done you need to see how your gun does with a cold bore. Every gun is different on this.

 

[UziLand]

On rifle rounds I jump 0.5 gr, loading 5 each.

I like three to five rounds using a sighting vise or rest.

 

[JamieC]

I do five of each 'load'. I'll jump two or three sizes of holes, (Lee double disc), see what looks promising, then come back and go one step either side of the better ones. I'll measure the three best bullet holes figuring they are the gun/ammo, the two worst are probably me!

 

[Coltdriver]

It is up to you. I learned this, got the concept and started doing work ups in .3 grain loads.

That will quickly get you past the limit of accuracy and the load. I have unloaded a lot of rounds but I have also learned to sneak up on what is termed a max round in the manual.

The key to ladder loading is this. You want to discover the load range that works for your particular rifle.

So lets say you discover that you dial in somewhere between XX.3 and XX.6 grains using the .3 grain increment. Once you do you create a set of rounds that range from before your XX.3 and after your XX.6 in .1 grain increments.

So create a 10 round set that goes from XX.1 thru XX.9 and see where you end up.

You are looking for the optimum harmonic from your ammo and rifle combo. The bullet, powder and primer and brass will affect this combination. So you have to repeat that combination to get the same result.

I have most often found that it is the medium range of the highest velocity possible where the most accurate round occurs.

So two step the process, do a .3 grain set across ten rounds. Then load the range that works and go a .1 grain set below and above that range.

I dial in all of my rifles this way and have had great success doing following this course.

Let us know how you do.

 

[WestKentucky]

My load in .270 is a tack driver to 300 and is on a sheet of notebook paper to 750 if I do my part...and this is a hunting load. I found the bullets I wanted to use on sale and bought a thousand of them. I looked at several sources for data and found all were similar for a powder I just happened to already have on hand in bulk. I took the heaviest starting load, and lightest max load, divided that into 5 groups (math worked out) and loaded 5 of each. I started light and shot 2 up close and checked for pressure signs then moved on to the next until I was through all 5. I decided not to shoot the lightest load because it hadn't flattened the primer to my liking and at 25 yards was a 1" 2 shot group when I knew both shots were well aimed. The other 4 loads got new pizza box targets at 150 yards, but all were on paper. Tried each 3 shot group slow fired, and barrel cooled while I changed targets. Ended up load #4 was really good, and I kept it as my midpoint and worked the distance from load 3 to load 5 with 3 shots each and ended up with the original load being the best.

This is how I do my ladder, and how I have shown my friends. Other folks do things differently, and with reason. I put 40 bullets, primers, and powder charges down range. I have heard of older guys loading a dozen from low end to high end of the data...and beyond...in fact I have a heavy .270 load slightly beyond book max...but those guys would shoot the whole batch of a dozen loads, figure out what recoil they liked based on 1 round, then verify pressure signs are good and call it good. Like most things reloading, there are very few people who do things identically. Find what just makes the most sense in your thought process and go with it. There is no "right way" but there is plenty wrong way. Be safe, and have fun loading.

 

[Chewy4480]

Thanks for all the great advice. I think I'm going to do a hybrid of everything I have heard. I loaded 4, 5rd loads in .5 increments from start and not quite to max. For a 55gr .223 start was 25grs of varget. So I did 25, 25.5, 26, then 26.5. Max was 27.6 I believer the 27 and 27.5 loads would have been compressed and being new to reloading I didn't want to go there yet. So I think I'll shoot the groups and pick the best one and then load some rounds in .1 increments to plus and minus .3 from the best group to fine tune it. Hopefully I'll be able to shoot next weekend.

 

[rmelchiori]

How about for pistol loads where the min and max and less than a grain apart?

 

[WNTFW]

.5 might be a big increment for .223 rounds. But I think you can see where to go from there.

I subscribe to the OCW for the most part, which leads me to say I agree with post #5

The biggest problem I see with the ladder is sample size. OCW is a variation on the ladder and designed to address the problems with ladder testing. Both methods are similar and the point is to identify a charge weight that will allow for some tolerance to variation. This is the condensed, simple version of it. There are more complicated ways to delve into what is going on.

 

[spitballer]

Tests can be quite elaborate but I've found that a clean barrel is necessary to start each group. I do my tests at at least 200 yds on the calmest day to increase "magnification". After a fouling shot (which splits right and seems to be more distinguishable at less-than-optimum pressure), normally my rounds will stay left of center until correct pressure is reached, at which point the fouling shot is also much less distinguishable from subsequent shots. This is with soft varmint style bullets with left hand twist and frequent barrel maintenance. I'm not too familiar with the FMJ's. I've never used a laser bore sight, but if it tells you where the bore is actually pointing I would definitely make use of it because it is imperative that you know where your actual center of aim is. Shots that roll left and right of center do so for a reason and I would not settle for anything less than dead center, with possible exceptions for spin drift and corialis effect.

Correction: Right hand twist! sorry, guys

 

[Schwing]

How about for pistol loads where the min and max and less than a grain apart?

I work those up .2 grains apart.

I also do 10-15 rounds for each and do 2 or 3 targets for each load. I find that I have enough bad shooting days that I need to do this to be sure that the one I pick as the best load REALLY is the best load and not just the target I got lucky on

 

[Toprudder]

For pistols, I like to try 4, sometimes 5 charge levels between the min and max loads, depending on the difference between min/max.

 

[Chewy4480]

So I load 20 rds of fmj and of v-max with varget. I'm going to do the same with benchmark. I'm going to have so much time into these rounds I almost don't want to shoot them, almost!

 

[Chewy4480]

I loaded up some ladder loads for my fmjs and v-max with varget. I'm going to do the same with benchmark. I'm going to have so much time into these rounds I almost don't want to shoot them, almost!

 

[savanahsdad]

The other way is to load just 1 rd per charge in .3gr jumps from your min to max. There will be some reds that group together and then you fine tune that group to your gun.

^^^^^^This is a ladder test , the other is just working up a load ,

A ladder test is to find the sweat spot , some bullets/rifles don't shoot there best at max , I run two ladder tests when I try new bullets or get a new gun , I'll load two rounds starting just above min. and go up to max, I shoot one string , shoot two rounds, let cool , shoot two,...... then clean gun , and do it all over again, most of the time the min's hit low and walk up , and max are high , but I've had max go right or left , as I shoot I have another target on the bench, that I mark my hits on , my ladders are about 10 rounds , out of the 10 hits find the best group of three and go with the one in the middle ,

if your best group is on the low side (slow) play with you bullet jump , and run test again ,

working up a load with 5 shot groups, jumping up 0.5gr at a time is fine after you do a ladder test , I work up loads whenever I get new lot of powder , brass or primers,

the up side to a ladder test, is to find that sweat spot in about 20 rounds (some do it in 10rd), if you do the "work up" ,with 5 shot groups to find the sweat spot you may shoot 50+ rounds with a lot of cool down time ,

oh and , with a 223 I'd go 0.3gr with 308, 270 ,25/06 and bigger stuff I'd go 0.5gr

 

[Nwflycaster]

^^^^^^
This

 

[Chewy4480]

Thanks savanahsdad. That makes a lot of sense. I believe thats the way I heard it explained on the reloadingpodcast.

 

[Chewy4480]

I just loaded up 10 rounds from 23.0 to 25.6 of benchmark. Thats .3 intervals. Does the test have to be at 100 yards or can I do it closer? The reason I ask is because all I have for an optic is an EOTEC with a 3x magnifier and I'm not sure if the dot will give me the accuracy I need at 100 yards.

 

[Nwflycaster]

While you may be able get some information at 100 yards, you will always be able to get a better visual the further you can stretch it out. I use the furthest distance possible at my home range which is 300 yards. Even at that distance I sometimes have a tough time reading the best results. If you are able to stretch it out to 500 or more that's what you should do. A low power magnification wont matter as long as you have a good solid hold on a fixed point for all shots and have good trigger control.

Good luck,
Jeff

 

[MtnCreek]

IMHO, you're not likely to get much useful info at 100yds and with a dot + magnifier.

 

[Chewy4480]

I could take my 3-9 nikon off my other rifle, I'd have to get a different set of rings. my range only goes to 200 yards but I have access to a field thats about 430 yards.

 

[Coltdriver]

Spitballer and Nwflycaster make good points.

I dial in for hunting rifles. So I always work up my loads at 200 yards.

Usually I set up for a 200 yard zero and then calculate my maximum point blank range from there. If I can set up so that I am 2 inches high at 100 yards and spot on at 200 then I can use ballistics software to figure out where I drop 2 inches past 100 yards. That way I can reliably hit anything within a 4 inch circle all the way out to my maximum. No messing with holdover or anything else. Once I range the animal I know I am good to go.

Smaller caliber, lighter bullets, smaller increments to begin with. Also very good advice.

You also have to consider the platform. In my NSHO a single shot rifle is the ultimate followed by a bolt rifle followed by a semi auto.

My maximum point blank range on a 55 grain .223 round was 235 yards which was an inch and a half high at 100, spot on at 200 and an inch and a half low at 235. That caliber really falls off so if you use a heavier bullet you can count on a lot more arc. Depending on your intended use that can make long distance accuracy tougher if you don't know the distance to target.

 

[savanahsdad]

Thanks savanahsdad. That makes a lot of sense. I believe thats the way I heard it explained on the reloadingpodcast.

your welcome ,

a ladder test should be done at 100 yards , remember we are trying to find the "sweat spot" , hopefully get under MOA, farther out you go the more the wind can effect the bullet , after you get the load that works best in your gun then go out farther ,

and for testing I'd slap on that 3X9, , your red dot will most likely cover more than 1"

what I like to do, is use 1" graph paper with a 1" dot in the middle and hold on the dot , if you can do that with a Red dot , you're a better shot than me,

you could try the ladder test at 50 yards but I'd bet you would have 5 out of your 10 shots so close together , that you would have a hard time picking witch load is your sweat spot ,

 

[Nwflycaster]

Definitely mount the scope.

Personally I wouldn't bother with a ladder test at 100 yards. If I fired 10 shots with an increase at .3 grains per charge, with an accurate rifle I would fully expect to have a single vertical hole. And somewhere in that single hole there would likely be a plateau that you wont see, rendering the test a waste of time and components.

I feel that at 100 yards how good you are on the trigger squeeze will show more than the load change for the most part.

When I was working up my 6BR, I performed an 8 shot ladder shot at 300 yards. The spread from highest to lowest was under 2.5" with a clear node that I would not have seen at 100 yards. That was the easiest rifle I've ever worked up a load for (finished in under 40 rounds) and it's still the most accurate I've ever had. I've kept some 300 yard 5 shot group targets from it where you can cover all five shots with a dime.

I wish they were all that easy. I'm currently two months and over 200 shots through one that I'm still not satisfied with for results.

Good luck

 

[savanahsdad]

Nwfylcaster: with a 6mm Bench Rest, heavy barrel and 14x or larger scope , on a calm wind free day , I too would stretch it out to 200-300 yards , but with a light AR or hunting rifle I going to have to stick with the 100 yard test, plus the math is simple, 1" at 100 yards = 1 MOA , more than good enough for a hunting rifle and most AR's


I too have a gun that I just can't seem to get tuned in , it's an AR in 25WSSM , I get nice ragged holes with 75gr V-Max ,90gr Sierra's and a few other light bullets are under 1 MOA , but when I load 117gr bullets or 120gr my groups are at 1.5 to 2.5 MOA, and I know it is not the rate of twist , because factory 100gr shoot under 1 MOA, and factory 120's are about 0.5 MOA , so I agree , and wish they were all easy ,