LCP vs P3AT question

[Wanderling]

So, as I understand, LCP is basically a rebranded and very slightly redesigned P3AT (correct me if I am wrong). They even have the same stupid takedown pin.

So, why is Ruger, which to me looks like the same design filling the same exact niche at about the same price point and coming to market a whole five years after Kel-Tec, is such a great hit, while P3AT is a fairly obscure gun ? Marketing ? Quality issues ?

 

[cfullgraf]

I'd guess the Ruger name has some benefit. Also, the Ruger has some small improvements over the Kel-Tec. The Ruger's fit and finish is a bit better than the Kel-Tec.

I have a Kel-Tec P3-AT and a P32 and they have been great, reliable guns.

 

[tactikel]

I am a great fan of KelTec products. Ruger was able circumvent patent laws and produce a "twin brother" of the Pat-3 the LCP. Ruger improved the fit and finish, had the cachet and marketing and made a fortune off of George Kelgren's design. I went to 5 LGSs not one had a Pat-3, LCPs everywhere. I ended up buying a 2nd hand LCP at a fantastic price and love it! Finish, reliability, and accuracy are fantastic. I carry it everyday.

 

[cc-hangfire]

In real estate, it’s location-location-location.

In firearms, it’s name-name-name (mostly & name is built by reliable products, aftermarket accessories, & customer services).

The plastic (oops, polymer) on Kel Tecs grips feels softer & cheaper. The design is proven after decades of use and since it is essentially the same design, that goes for both the P3AT & the LCP.

No one is impressed if you tell them you carry a Kel Tec. If you tell them that you carry a Ruger, they nod and say, “Ruger makes good guns.”

I don’t pocket carry to impress other people, though. I sold my LCP a few years ago (just had to have one to compare). I still have three P3AT’s; one gen1 & two gen2’s.

 

[Tallball]

It's the same gun. I think the Ruger may be a tiny bit heavier, and its fit and finish are maybe a little better. I'm not sure if there were any patents to circumvent. The real "breakthrough" idea was to make a small light polymer pocket pistol by using a locked breech instead of a blowback. IIRC the breech is a normal Browning one - the patent expired decades ago. Using a polymer frame is an old idea, too.

I've owned two P3AT's and a P32. They all work(ed) fine. I eventually replaced the 380's because the LCPII has way better sights and trigger.

I think cc-hangfire pretty much nailed it. A Kel-Tec is a "cheap" gun and therefore suspect. Slap the Ruger name on the same gun and all of the sudden it's a "quality firearm".

 

[Wanderling]

I get the Kel Tec lack of brand name appeal, but - again, correct me if I am wrong - didn’t they pretty much have the only truly pocketable lightweight and affordable .380 on the market with P3AT ? All other guns in that caliber at that time which I can think of are heavier, larger, more expensive or all of it.

I am just surprised, given the great market for similar guns today, that they were not as successful as Ruger was only five years later with basically same exact design.

 

[cc-hangfire]

.,,I am just surprised, given the great market for similar guns today, that they were not as successful as Ruger was only five years later with basically same exact design.

Kel Tec is a company that folks like to hate on - not the level of ridicule that Hi Point receives- but up there. But they are successful.

If what I remember is correct, KT is the 3rd largest American firearms maker; their business philosophy is to only expand with their own earnings (zero corporate debt); and -as posted above with scarcity in gun shops - they sell out their production runs. Another THR member calls them “the Bic pen of the gun world”, and I think that is spot on. They manufacture tools, self defense tools, but tools nonetheless.

 

[mavracer]

I am a great fan of KelTec products. Ruger was able circumvent patent laws and produce a "twin brother" of the Pat-3 the LCP. Ruger improved the fit and finish, had the cachet and marketing and made a fortune off of George Kelgren's design. I went to 5 LGSs not one had a Pat-3, LCPs everywhere. I ended up buying a 2nd hand LCP at a fantastic price and love it! Finish, reliability, and accuracy are fantastic. I carry it everyday.

What patents???

 

[Jeb Stuart]

Same gun, different logo's. Different Poly grip design. Under the hood it is the same thing. Over the many years I have seen many guys like the Keltec better. Then again, it depends on how much advertising is going on and money spent on ads. In that regards, I am sure Ruger outsells the Keltec.


Wanderling quote"They even have the same stupid takedown pin.
Yes, it is baffling that they still use this cheap piece of crap for a take down pin. I had enough of them break over the years and sent a few receivers down range. I got into the habit of just replacing them on a regular basis. But the bottom line, is that these guns are "Throw Away Guns". Use to they go kaput and get another one.

 

[Wanderling]

Same gun, different logo's. Different Poly grip design. Under the hood it is the same thing. Over the many years I have seen many guys like the Keltec better. Then again, it depends on how much advertising is going on and money spent on ads. In that regards, I am sure Ruger outsells the Keltec.


Wanderling quote"They even have the same stupid takedown pin.
Yes, it is baffling that they still use this cheap piece of crap for a take down pin. I had enough of them break over the years and sent a few receivers down range. I got into the habit of just replacing them on a regular basis. But the bottom line, is that these guns are "Throw Away Guns". Use to they go kaput and get another one.

Yeah, def not range toys. I only shoot a couple mags at a time through mine to make sure I still have a feel for it and can hit the target.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

They're NOT the same guns with different logos, but they both share the same basic design.

I've owned both, and the only difference for me was that 1) the Ruger was a bit prettier (and cosmetics/aesthetics do matter when you look at guns in a gunshop), and 2) the trigger guard shape of the P3AT jammed my trigger finger during recoil, and it was painful after a few shots.

Had I kept my P3AT I would probably have heated up that part of the frame/trigger guard and stretched the finger guard a bit. I tried a LCP and it was fine. I later decided to go to the next size up, and tried several guns, ranging from a Keltec P11, to a Kahr P9, PM9, CM9, and finally settled on a Ruger SR9c and a Browning BDA380. Generally, when I carry, it's a 9mm, but not always a sub-compact. (I've got a Glock 38 that I like a lot, but its usually a home-defense gun.).

 

[chicharrones]

I can tell you that when I first saw the KelTec pocket guns at a gun show in the early 2000s, I thought they were "ring of fire" guns. The low price, basic grip frame design, finish of that frame, and I probably never heard of KelTec before.

Plus, I don't recall seeing KelTec pistols in gun shops back then either. I probably saw them in pawn shops like the "ring of fire" guns.

Ruger came along and took the KelTec design several steps above the "ring of fire" appearance. So did Taurus with their TCP, for that matter.

Appearance, and pricing, can affect the perception of quality whether it's deserved or not. Add Ruger's well known name and reputation, and there ya go.

It took me firing a friend's PF9 (which is a better looking gun than the P3AT, IMO) to open my mind to KelTecs.

 

[chicharrones]

They even have the same stupid takedown pin.

A lot of lightweight and thin pocket guns do have similar minimal takedown pins. For the same reason many of these type of guns don't have manual safety levers or hammer spurs. They're made to a minimal size and have few external protrusions. Fewer sharp points to rub into a person's body and fewer points to snag on clothing, are what come to my mind.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

I can tell you that when I first saw the KelTec pocket guns at a gun show in the early 2000s, I thought they were "ring of fire" guns. The low price, basic grip frame design, finish of that frame, and I probably never heard of KelTec before.

Plus, I don't recall seeing KelTec pistols in gun shops back then either. I probably saw them in pawn shops like the "ring of fire" guns.

Ruger came along and took the KelTec design several steps above the "ring of fire" appearance. So did Taurus with their TCP, for that matter.

Appearance, and pricing, can affect the perception of quality whether it's deserved or not. Add Ruger's well known name and reputation, and there ya go.

It took me firing a friend's PF9 (which is a better looking gun than the P3AT, IMO) to open my mind to KelTecs.

They ARE the same thing under the hood. Same design to be almost identical. You might find a slight variation, but nothing significant. But you are right. Appearance and Pricing and affect PERCEPTION of Quality. Both companies could have done better. They very well could have designed a better take down pin. And stainless steel pins could be bought from different sources. They could have used stainless steel guide rods. (And please do not tell me they don't wear out). Ruger basicall stole the design from Keltec no matter how you cut it. But they could have just made their own gun and built it like a tank, rather then just piggyback off the Keltec.

Here is a take down pin of quality. The Beretta Pico. And I bet it will last for every. and the Kahr CW380


I started off with the Keltec and Ruger many years ago. As a Ruger fan I always hoped they would actually come out with a real tank build pocket gun. Just not in the cards. That said, I found the Pico and it became everthing I wanted, so all was not lost.

The same with the Ruger SR9C. I love that gun, great quality. I don't think you will see another one. The Security9 sound IMO been called the LCP9. And it AIN'T NO SR9!
y

 

[gbw]

Also a big Kel-Tec fan, PF9 is still the best all-round 9mm carry pistol for size, weight, reliability, accuracy, and price. To me the LCP and P3AT are the same gun, except:

KTs must NOT be dry fired. Baffling that KTs have this problem and they’ve never bothered to correct it. Firing pin either breaks or becomes wedged in the FP hole in the slide, which is just goofy in this day and age.

It is a deal breaker for many, understandably, and part of the reason they’ve never gained the acceptance they otherwise deserve.

Roger had sense enough to avoid that problem.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

Also a big Kel-Tec fan, PF9 is still the best all-round 9mm carry pistol for size, weight, reliability, accuracy, and price. To me the LCP and P3AT are the same gun, except:

KTs must NOT be dry fired. Baffling that KTs have this problem and they’ve never bothered to correct it. Firing pin either breaks or becomes wedged in the FP hole in the slide, which is just goofy in this day and age.

It is a deal breaker for many, understandably, and part of the reason they’ve never gained the acceptance they otherwise deserve.

Roger had sense enough to avoid that problem.

I do not dry fire any of my firearms,Never have and never will. Having a take down pin break because of a weak material is unacceptable. The only thing I know about a PF9 is the fact that it is a gun that is not fun to shoot. And both the LCP and Keltec are snappy suckers.
I will say this. Ruger has IMO the best marketing department of all firearms. My God, I can only imagine the millions spent on Ads etc. They have learned the lesson of Sell the "SIZZLE" and not the steak very well. Combined with great customer service, they have learned how to sell cheap firearms. Take the LCP, not really much to it. They sell a million, know very well most people will not shoot them very often and all is good. When a failure does happen, they will repair it fast and quick. , I would say they know they will not be getting many of them in from the one's sold. I doubt most new age guns owners do not put more than a 100 rds a year through them.
The internet is full of people telling them they do not need to shoot often or train often, because they are only good for a few feet away.
In reality they need a lot of training. Frequent and diligent practice. And with that practice, means the guns are far more capable of shooting well at farther distances.

 

[Tallball]

My two P3AT's worked well. My FiL still has one of them and it still works fine. My P32 works well. My P11 had such a stiff trigger that I eventually traded it towards something else, but it worked just fine. My KT experiences have been good ones.

I don't dry-fire my firearms without snap caps either, and even then not all that much. I have too many to remember which ones it's okay to dry-fire and which ones it isn't. Trips to the range will just have to accomplish the same purpose, over time.

 

[Speedo66]

I seem to recall the magazines on early models were even interchangeable between brands. Also, a product for clip carry, rather than a holster, fit either brand.

To me, the Ruger was just a shameless copy, I doubt Bill Ruger would have allowed that.

 

[herrwalther]

There is no way in a very well written about place I would ever own a P3AT again. I had malfunctions with that firearm I have never even seen before. The very last time I fired it at the range, instead of loading a new bullet into the chamber, it pushed the spent brass halfway down the barrel. I had to take the gun apart to get the case out. I didn't even bother to clean it before I sold it. But the LCP has tempted me from time to time.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

There is no way in a very well written about place I would ever own a P3AT again. I had malfunctions with that firearm I have never even seen before. The very last time I fired it at the range, instead of loading a new bullet into the chamber, it pushed the spent brass halfway down the barrel. I had to take the gun apart to get the case out. I didn't even bother to clean it before I sold it. But the LCP has tempted me from time to time.

If you had other problems with the P3AT, I can understand your concern/disgust.

But a gun that "pushed the spent brass halfway down the barrel" is an issue that is more likely a problem that was caused by crappy brass/ammo than the gun. There's not much about that gun (or the LCP) that can force a casing down the barrel. A defective cartridge (weak brass, bad load, etc.) might do it. The design of the slide and barrel are very, very similar in those two guns.

I had both a P3AT and an LCP, and the only thing I found really different about the two was that the trigger guard of the LCP was slightly larger than the trigger guard of the P3AT, and the LCP didn't slam into my trigger finger when I fired. (The smaller P3AT trigger guard was a little painful for me after a magazine or two.) Both guns performed about the same, otherwise, and I had no problems with either.

 

[Yo Mama]

Keltec designs what other manufacturers will be making years from now.

 

[herrwalther]

If you had other problems with the P3AT, I can understand your concern/disgust.

I did. In addition to the horrendous failure I had with the P3AT, it was a jam o matic. Failure to feed and extracts. I had more reliable feeding out of AMT handguns. As far as out of spec ammo, I doubt it. The brass (actually nickel) was on a Hydra-shok round. I was doing reliablity testing with SD rounds. My hope at the time was the jams were caused by target FMJ 380 ammo. When I started having the same issue with SD/HP ammo, I didn't want it to be my problem anymore.

 

[Jeb Stuart]

I did. In addition to the horrendous failure I had with the P3AT, it was a jam o matic. Failure to feed and extracts. I had more reliable feeding out of AMT handguns. As far as out of spec ammo, I doubt it. The brass (actually nickel) was on a Hydra-shok round. I was doing reliablity testing with SD rounds. My hope at the time was the jams were caused by target FMJ 380 ammo. When I started having the same issue with SD/HP ammo, I didn't want it to be my problem anymore.

So you had a Keltc P3AT that had failures so all Keltecs are jamomatics? Come on, give me a break. I was on the LCP forum for about 10 years. Can't count the amount of LCP's that had all kinds of failures. Yes, I had 4 of them and was lucky as they all feed well. But, But Not all LCP's were fantastic and still many are not. No, there is not much difference in a Keltec or Ruger. No matter how you cut it, they are basically the same gun.
Personally I do not feel this is much of a debate. Flip a coin. The only thing I might find superior is the fact that Ruger continued to repair or replace all my LCP's with great service.
Many years ago, friends at my club would hold informal contest between Pocket guns. There never was much difference in the LCP or Keltec, Shooters yes. It was always Ford vs Chevy comparisons. Back then the Sig 238 was selling quite well and neither the LCP or Keltec could do as well. But then again, I really do not thing the Sig was in the same class.

 

[deadeye dick]

I had a P32 KT sold it for a little bigger cal. Got a Ruger LCP. Sort of a mistake. The LCP has , to me, a lot more recoil than the .32 and is much fun to shoot. It's just a BUG so I don't practice much with it. Howie

 

[herrwalther]

So you had a Keltc P3AT that had failures so all Keltecs are jamomatics? Come on, give me a break. I was on the LCP forum for about 10 years. Can't count the amount of LCP's that had all kinds of failures. Yes, I had 4 of them and was lucky as they all feed well. But, But Not all LCP's were fantastic and still many are not. No, there is not much difference in a Keltec or Ruger. No matter how you cut it, they are basically the same gun.
Personally I do not feel this is much of a debate. Flip a coin. The only thing I might find superior is the fact that Ruger continued to repair or replace all my LCP's with great service.
Many years ago, friends at my club would hold informal contest between Pocket guns. There never was much difference in the LCP or Keltec, Shooters yes. It was always Ford vs Chevy comparisons. Back then the Sig 238 was selling quite well and neither the LCP or Keltec could do as well. But then again, I really do not thing the Sig was in the same class.

I didn't say anything about ALL Kel-tecs being junk. I had bad experience with one, and that colors my experience against them. My wife is worse about it. The P3AT was technically "her" gun for carry. After we sold it she swore off the brand harder than I did. She was interested in getting a P-11 until she saw the manufacturer name.