Leading problems - Taurus 24/7 Pro C DS in .45ACP

[Steve in KC]

I recently started reloading and shooting rounds for my 24/7 Pro Compact DS .45acp

I've used the following recipe on two batches:
Projectile: Missouri Bullet Company - 230 LRN "softball" .452, BHN=18*
Brass: Assorted between PMC once fired and Winchester, Remington, Speer Range brass (all cleaned up of course)
Powder: Red Dot
Charge: 5.0gr and 4.5 gr
Primers: CCI 300
OAL: 1.265
All rounds go into battery and feed from the clips without a hiccup. When dropped a dummy round into the barrel (removed from the gun) it seats flush with a 'clunk'.

After shooting 50 rounds of each this past weekend, my barrel was so leaded, grooves were almost FULL of lead. It looked like I had a smooth bore! In fact, there were very small thin shavings of lead clinging to the inside of the barrel.

I've got it all cleaned up now and all the lead is gone, but I have a LOT of these bullets left over.

I'm wondering if the following could be a culprit:
1) BHN is 18: Is this too hard of lead for my barrel?
2) Barrel could possibly be .001-.002 larger than .450 - has anyone slugged this barrel? I haven't yet, but plan on doing so. The reason I bring this up is that gas cutting could be the culprit.
3) Could my OAL be too short? I measured against a PMC 230J FMJ for seating depth, after I had shot 150 rounds of that ammo without a single failure to feed/fire or jam.
4) I did NOT check the diameter of the projectiles against a caliper. I assumed (yes I know what that means) that they were spot on as .452 since they were professionally manufactured.

Thanks in advance.

 

[rcmodel]

Well, I think the first thing to do is slug the barrel and measure the bullets.

If that checks out, buy some JB Bore Paste & JB Bore bright and lap/polish the bore.

Some barrels just lead more then others for no apparent reason, and lapping usually makes a remarkable difference.

We can assume there are microscopic burs left in the bore from manufacturing, and they begin to grab lead off the bullet from the first shot out of a clean barrel.
Once it starts, it's all downhill from there.

As an aside, Alliant powder guide 2002 said 4.0 Red Dot / 230 L bullet was a max target load.

rc

 

[Quoheleth]

I would bet the farm that you are shooting too hard of bullets. You're running 18BHN bullets that are designed for magnum velocity & pressure.

The .45ACP is a much lower pressure round and the 12BHN will suffice.

Check Missouri Bullet's FAQs for an explanation of harder vs softer lead.

FWIW, I run the 18bhn out of my 9mm, .357 and .41 Magnums and their 12bhn in my .38 and .45ACP with no major leading.

Q

 

[243winxb]

Is there a difference in group size between the first 10 shot group to the last group fired? Its not leading if accuracy stays the same.

 

[Walkalong]

The .45ACP is a much lower pressure round and the 12BHN will suffice.

Yep, especially if they are a hair undersized for your barrel.

.45 ACP should not lead at all.

 

[Steve in KC]

rcmodel,

Thanks for the guide info, but per their website, 5.1 is the max load (as of today). However, their Min OAL is 1.270. I find that odd since the 45ACP was designed to be 1.265 for the 1911. Granted, I'm not shooting a 1911, but anywho...

Minimum OAL(inches) Bbl Length Primer Powder Charge Weight
grains) Velocity
(fps)
1.27 4.4 CCI 300 Red Dot 5.1 841

 

[Walkalong]

1) Yes.
2) Could be, and doesn't help, especially with too hard a bullet.
3) Got nothing to do with leading.
4) Probably not an issue.

 

[rcmodel]

All GI issue 230 grain RN-FMJ match and ball ammo I have measured is seated to 1.266" - 1.271"

1.270" is what I seat to with GI profile bullets cast in a Lyman #452374 mold.
They recommend 1.272".

One other thing to double-check is the amount of taper crimp you are using.
If too much, you can squish the bullet under-size and that will cause gas blow-by / gas cutting / leading.
Case mouth after taper crimp should measure no less then .469". at most.

.470" - .471 is probably better with cast bullets if they will chamber freely but it all depends on bullet dia and case mouth thickness.

rc

 

[918v]

I vote too hard a bullet.

The barrel is prolly fine in terms of groove diameter, but the throat may be larger than .452" and allows blowby which in turn causes leading.

 

[Steve in KC]

Quo, I ran the calculation, which came out to 16BHN. 18BHN shouldn't make that much of a difference. I didn't see anywhere on their site where the 230gr LRN in .452 is designed for magnum velocity and pressure. Their own site displays this bullet as an option when choosing 45acp - am I missing something?

RC - I'll definitely be slugging. I plan to cast my own and want to know the exact diameter for this purpose. I'll try the lap/polish if I can't figure this out without buying something. I'm not crimping. I'll check the case mouths though! Good point. I did notice during loading that I'd get a 'squeek' sometimes out of the press when seating a bullet. Perhaps I'm not flaring enough and squeezing the bullet when seating since I'm not crimping.

243 - I wasn't measuring the groups. These loads were for just 'shooting'/plinking not for accuracy. We all know how red dot measures for accuracy...it don't!

 

[Walkalong]

Calculations are fine, but what it is, is what it is, and it's leading. Soft lead bullets don't lead in .45 ACP. Seriously.

Even the harder ones than needed generally don't lead if they are a real good fit.

.45 ACP is about as easy as it gets. Bullets too hard or too small, or barrel too big, are really the only things that will cause leading in it.

Even with a big barrel, you can go soft with the lead and pretty much get by unless the barrel is .50 cal.

 

[rcmodel]

Even the harder ones than needed generally don't lead if they are a real good fit.

+1
I run a little Linotype in my bullets for 1911's & S&W revolvers.

They have very shallow rifling, as do most .45 ACP barrels designed for jacketed bullets.
A too soft bullet can strip the shallow rifling and cause leading if driven too hard.

Harder .45 ACP bullets is good.

rc

 

[Steve in KC]

Here's what I'm going to do...
1) slug the barrel
2) hopefully acquire some softer lead bullets form a form member before I go down the money pit of casting.
3) decide from there.

 

[Walkalong]

A too soft bullet can strip the shallow rifling and cause leading if driven too hard.

Very true. I just didn't consider that with his charge weighs of Red Dot.

 

[glockmon]

Shooting too hard of lead is crap. That's a BS pitch to get you buy a cheaper processed lead bullet. 80% linotype with 20% pure will do a good job, if not pure linotype. Take internet information with a grain of salt. Test it for yourself.

 

[Walkalong]

It's not crap. Tested by many here and all over the place. Especially the guys over at castboolits. Us older guys had to read and test. No internet for us. Too hard causes leading in some situations, many really.

 

[EddieNFL]

Shooting too hard of lead is crap. That's a BS pitch to get you buy a cheaper processed lead bullet. 80% linotype with 20% pure will do a good job, if not pure linotype. Take internet information with a grain of salt. Test it for yourself.

Am I the only one to see the irony?

 

[Steve in KC]

Well, crap. Seems I might've figured this out. May NOT have anything to do with hardness afterall. I had to run home (I live an HOUR from work) ugh, and while I was there, I grabbed the caliper's two PMC 230gr FMJ's and, two of my re-loads, and two projectiles...

PMC FMJ's...
OAL: 1.264, 1.265
Diameter at the mouth: .469", .470"

My reloads...
OAL: 1.2585, 1.261 <----hmmmmm
Diameter at the mouth: .470", .469"

Projectiles...
right on the money at .451"


Soooo....I'm thinking that because I'm obviously seating too deep that my pressure has increased causing THREE things...
1) the load being hotter than I thought
2) leaving too much room between the nose of the bullet and the throat, allowing gasses to escape
3) The loads not seeming to be any lighter than the 5gr loads **I only measured those from the 4.5gr batch.

I'm still going to slug tonight and see what happens.
I'm going to shoot up instead of pulling the other 100+ rounds I have and just deal with the lead buildup in the barrel one final time.
Make up some dummy rounds between 1.265 and 1.275 to see at what point the bullets start to jam when cycling so I know where to dial it back to.
Work up SMALLER batches of new loads with 4gr of powder and INCREASE the OAL to Whatever length I found above.

Today's lesson? Measure thrice, load once.

Thanks, everyone. I appreciate the help.

 

[243winxb]

Test it for yourself. I did using a 45 acp

Harder bullets seem to lead in my testing. But then the alloy is really unknown. I guess it to be mostly wheel weight with some pure, maybe even some zinc Hardened by oven heat treating/water quench. Made bullets a lot harder. I test using thumb nail, no tester. Barrel slugs at .451" Lyman 200gr BB drop from the mold at .4515" to .452" Tumble lubed w/Xlox (not a TL bullet). 5.0gr 700X. Leading is a lot more than my normal air cooled and sized bullets. Accuracy has remained the same to 140 rounds fired. Never had a problem in 40 years using range scrape/air cooled. If the bullets drop undersized from the mould, linotype is added. I have seen 2 guns lead where accuracy was lost. One a .354" bore with .358" factory swaged 148gr WC ove 2.7 bullseye. The other had tool marks. Photos of my leading test @http://www.photobucket.com/joe1944usa

 

[Steve in KC]

yep, that's why my barrel looked like.

 

[LiveLife]

Harder bullets don't mean it will automatically lead the barrel. I believe there are other factors such as quality of alloying process.

I shoot 24 BHN lead bullets in my Taurus PT145 Pro (230 gr 5.0-5.5gr W231/HP38 1.25" OAL) with hardly any leading.

I also shoot the same hardness lead bullets in 9mm/40S&W Lone Wolf barrels with similar results.

Like many others posted, I would reexamine all the variables and rerloading steps.

 

[Steve C]

Lead accumulates on fouling, both lead and copper. If you shot much jacketed ammo before the lead there's probably enough copper in the bore that should be removed. You need to get your bore clean as possible. The best way to remove the lead and the copper is chemically with a Outers foul out or similar home made device.

Next quickest is to remove the lead with a 50-50 mix of hydrogen peroxide and white vinegar. Plug the barrel, vacuum line plugs from the automotive store is a cheap and good way to do this. Stand the barrel up and pour the mix into the bore. You will see bubbles rising and a scum containing the lead will accumulate on top. Pour out into somewhere you will not poison yourself or anyone else with the lead. DO NOT LEAVE IN THE BORE LONGER AFTER THE SOLUTIONS QUITS BUBBLING OR AROUND 15 MINUTES BECAUSE IT WILL START IN ON THE STEEL AFTER IF FINISHES THE LEAD.

patches cut from a Lead Wipe Cloth pushed through on a jag will work pretty good too.

A slower way is with bore brush, lead removing solvent and lots of elbow grease.

After the lead is gone clean with a copper removing bore cleaner, Sweets 7.62 is probably the strongest.

Reduce your load to around 4.5grs of Red Dot and there shouldn't be any more leading that can't be removed with a couple brush passes with regular bore solvent.

 

[243winxb]

I believe there are other factors such as quality of alloying process.

True, if using scrap alloy like i do. But Missouri Bullet Company is using virgin metals to make there alloy or buying it. The .452" diameter is correct for probably 99% of 45 acp's out there (needs to be checked). If Steves barrel groove dia. is not undersize or rough, then i would guess its a lube problem. The commercial lubes are harder to withstand heat during shipment. I never did believe to hard an alloy could be the problem, just bad alloy. But i have been wrong before.

 

[Steve in KC]

ok, here's where we are....

I slugged my barrel and from groove to opposite groove, it slugged at .4660"

The projectiles I'm using are .016" smaller than my bore....gas cutting.

 

[SSN Vet]

it slugged at .4660"

something 'aint right with that!