Learning about Double Rifles
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Maverick223
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As others have suggested the disadvantages of a double is cost, ho-hum accuracy (typical), and the limited cartridge capacity. The advantages are two of nearly everything that could possibly break (redundancy is good when you are going up against large, dangerous game), and one extremely quick follow up shot (at the expense of slower additional shots, which are rarely necessary).
Blackies aren't the most dangerous game, nor the largest. Either cartridge you mention will serve you well with decent shot placement (and nothing will do well with poor shot placement). A double is not needed, but wouldn't hurt anything at typical ranges (limited by accuracy and sights). I would stick with what you already have, and plan to purchase. OTOH if you decide to go after the big bruins (Kodiak or Polar) then a little more oomph is in order. I prefer a good ole' .375H&H or .45-70Govt. for such use. The former being a bit better for range as it affords trajectory similar to the '06 (with similar bullets), the latter being better for a defensive role as it is a bit quicker to operate (assuming the typical lever action).
Blackies aren't the most dangerous game, nor the largest. Either cartridge you mention will serve you well with decent shot placement (and nothing will do well with poor shot placement). A double is not needed, but wouldn't hurt anything at typical ranges (limited by accuracy and sights). I would stick with what you already have, and plan to purchase. OTOH if you decide to go after the big bruins (Kodiak or Polar) then a little more oomph is in order. I prefer a good ole' .375H&H or .45-70Govt. for such use. The former being a bit better for range as it affords trajectory similar to the '06 (with similar bullets), the latter being better for a defensive role as it is a bit quicker to operate (assuming the typical lever action).
This really is fantastic info all around. Range isn't as much of an issue for me as it is for others. 150-200yds is my outer limit for shooting for anything deer or bigger (200yds-300yds for varmints) I'm much more comfortable inside of 100-150yds. So the range of a double rifle really isn't of much concern for me.
Cost is more of an issue for me though. In the small to medium calibers (257 to 338) its hard for me to justify $3k-$5k for a double rifle when an off the shelf Browning can be had new in nearly any medium/large game caliber or action for under $1300. Now, for the larger calibers (9.3x74 and up), theres not a whole lot of choice in multi-shot rifles from what I've seen, so I'd be willing to spend $5k-$9k for a nice double rifle.
Cost is more of an issue for me though. In the small to medium calibers (257 to 338) its hard for me to justify $3k-$5k for a double rifle when an off the shelf Browning can be had new in nearly any medium/large game caliber or action for under $1300. Now, for the larger calibers (9.3x74 and up), theres not a whole lot of choice in multi-shot rifles from what I've seen, so I'd be willing to spend $5k-$9k for a nice double rifle.
Maverick223
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I disagree, there are a great many choices in .375H&H, and the selection isn't too shabby for .416Rigby, .458WM, or .458Lott either. Above .458cal. is a bit limited.
I am traditional and do not want to count on rimless extractors in a dangerous game express rifle. Krieghoff has a 500/.416 that gives Rigby ballistics and a rimmed case for easy extraction. Hornady is loading .450-400 for new and old guns.
I have and have used a variety of actions for hunting, bolt actions, single shots, double rifles, and lever actions. Of them all, I keep returning to the lever action and the single shot rifles. The doubles, one 45-70 and one cut for the 475#2 Jeffery, were nice but the single shots are nearly as quick and much more accurate in my hands. The lever rifle, in 405 WCF, is a fast repeater and certainly accurate and more then enough for anything on this continent. Of course, the 30-06, 303 Enfield and 30-Gov't are also more than enough for any of the animals the original poster mentioned.
I would recommend you just buy appropriate ammo (or load your own) and practice a bit more.
I would recommend you just buy appropriate ammo (or load your own) and practice a bit more.
There is also a cz 550 bolt gun offered in 505 gibbs for about 3k if you. Want to go real big !! That will kill anything that walks on the planet
There seems to be a perception gap in what is needed for North American dangerous game versus African dangerous game. .375H&H is typically listed as the minimum effective DG cartridge for Africa, while .338WM is considered quite enough for N.A. game like bears or bison. However, a large brown or polar bear weighs twice as much as a male lion and a North American bison is faster, heavier, and bigger-boned than a Cape buffalo (albeit less irate). There are obviously no elephants, rhinos, etc. in N.A. but do hunters either magnify the potency of African game or underestimate the critters on our own continent? To an extent I suspect catridge preferences are driven simply by what is known to work in each place.
Much of it is due to tradition and game laws. The British tradition was large bore, "express rifles" for just about everything, and that was locked into law years and years ago.
Maverick223
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Your logic is sound, but honestly the difference between the .375H&H and .338WM is not as wide as one might believe (though I still greatly prefer the old nitro cartridge). As you said the Cape Buffalo is a far more dangerous species (which no doubt dates back to being teased for those funny looking ears), but Bison aren't predictable either. OTOH, I am sure that more folks hunt the African bovine than the domestic one, but hopefully the population will continue to rebound and that will soon change.
Laws and common sense are two different things. Particularly when the people making the laws know little about firearms.
Maverick, I stand corrected. A bit of searching turned up a good number of 416 Rem Mag & 458 Win Mag rifles such as the Remington Model 700, Ruger No 1, and the newer version of the Model 70 Winchester. Of those, I'm more partial to the Model 70 as its currently being made by Winchester in that caliber, its a 3+1 bolt action, and there is ammo readily avaliable in good selection for each caliber. I'd lean more towards a 416 Rem Mag because the load is a little faster & harder hitting than the 458 Win Mag.
As for the comments of shoot what you have, a 12ga with deer slugs or a 257 Roberts aren't really good elk guns unless you happen to be standing on top of the elk. Slugs period are a 100yds or less deal and the 257 is just too small to be effective at any range outside of 100yd on elk without ridicuously great shot placement (as in misses all the bones on its way in, hits the heart & lungs, and then breaks the shoulder on the way out). This is a case where I do need a cartridge that can shoot though the bone & tissue, hit the vitals, and break a joint or two to drop it where it stands.
I understand that I need to be able to shoot whatever it is that I choose, but even great shot placement with an undersized gun isn't a good idea. I understand that a bad shot can't be made up for with a large caliber gun.
From what I've been reading, its begining to seem the 338 Win Mag is a good all round large NA game round. For anything larger than what I'd find here in NA, I'd probably use a 416 Rem Mag. I know I need to be able to shoot each one of those in order to use it effectivly. I've learned a ton about double rifles in this thread, but it also has become apparent that unless I'm willing to shell out $9k+, I'm not going to have alot of choices as far as double rifles go. Its hard to argue economics of a 4 shot bolt action that costs $1300 vs a 2 shot double rifle that costs $6k.
I really do appreciate the info about double rifles thus far. But I'm also interested in choosing an appropriate cartridge & gun for NA large game as well.
Maverick223
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I was referring to the 358Win. and .30-06Spd. that you mentioned in the OP, not a little bitty quarter bore or scattergun (which would do fine with Brenneke Black Magic slugs).
As I mentioned earlier the .30-06Spd. is a fine choice for blackies, elk, and even moose (with proper shot placement), though a .35Whelen would be my first choice. If you plan to use it for the larger species of bear, a .338WM, 9.3x64mmBrenneke, .375H&H, .405WCF, or .45-70Govt. might be a better investment. These would work just as well for the smaller species, but keep in mind that cartridge cost and recoil will be much greater with these magnums than the aforementioned choices.
As far as the rifle, I have always preferred a CRF action like a M-70 or Mauser for things that might eat me, or other important tasks at moderate to long range. For defensive applications (where one would expect much closer engagement distances) I would select a lever rifle or pump scattergun. The Winchester 1895 fills both roles quite well, as it affords the use of powerful, heavy cartridges (& spitzers) and a quick-cycling action, but it precludes the use of optics (for all practical purposes).
.30-06 is enough for anything on this continent, including black bear or even the bigger brown ones. Bear spray is your best defense against an unlikely attack, rather than a larger rifle.
Either the 358 or 30-06 would be excellent rounds for elk, moose or black bear. You would only want to consider something bigger for grizzly or polar bear.
So your tactics would be to fire the rifle once and if the bear doesn't drop, throw the rifle away and whip out a pistol? Might I suggest that you fire again with the loaded and far more powerful rifle you still have in your hands?
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Maverick223
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I sort of see his logic. If the rifle fails, you still have a back-up system; though I would simply use a very reliable rifle platform to begin with making a big, heavy pistol largely unnecessary.
I sort of see his logic. If the rifle fails, you still have a back-up system; though I would simply use a very reliable rifle platform to begin with making a big, heavy pistol largely unnecessary.
Let's go over the quote again:
He says they would use the pistols if the rifle doesn't take it down on the first shot. There's nothing about the rifle failing and using the pistol as a backup. And I agree; get a decent bolt action and the odds of it failing are pretty small.
Maverick223
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I suppose I just assumed that the condition was if the rifle failed in some way...why else would one drop a rifle for a wee little pistol?
P.S.: If that was the logic applied and you were thinking speed as a justification; how long would it take to retrieve the pistol? I'd think it would be slower than working the action of a proper rifle (which is to say anything save for a single-shot). If you were thinking distance (the pistol being shorter and thereby affording more time to fire); how long does it take a bear to close 2ft.? I'm betting PDQ.
I wouldn't throw the rifle down if the bear charged. I'd unload my rifle into that bear and slap another 4 round mag in it and empty that if I had to. My dad seems to have the idea that we'd need a 44mag handgun. If I can't drop something thats charging with a 338 WinMag BAR, I need to be eaten.
I'm curious as to what you guys think of a semi auto like the BAR. I noticed that you guys keep saying CRF, but how is a semi less reliable than a bolt. If the gas system fails on a semi auto, you still can rack the round by hand as you do with a bolt or lever action.
I'm curious as to what you guys think of a semi auto like the BAR. I noticed that you guys keep saying CRF, but how is a semi less reliable than a bolt. If the gas system fails on a semi auto, you still can rack the round by hand as you do with a bolt or lever action.
Pete D.
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Great thread. Just a quick comment about a comment.
That is just not true. I hunt with a .30-06 double rifle. I don't feel that it puts me at a disadvantage in any way. Very handy, easy to carry, more compact than others rifle with the same barrel length. Reliable.
What else is there?
Pete
That is just not true. I hunt with a .30-06 double rifle. I don't feel that it puts me at a disadvantage in any way. Very handy, easy to carry, more compact than others rifle with the same barrel length. Reliable.
What else is there?
Pete
how about this from ruger?
http://www.ruger.com/products/m77HawkeyeAlaskan/models.html
chambered in 375 ruger, basically a 375 H&H in a shorter, fatter case. you can find them for around $700-$900
http://www.ruger.com/products/m77HawkeyeAlaskan/models.html
chambered in 375 ruger, basically a 375 H&H in a shorter, fatter case. you can find them for around $700-$900
or how about one of these?
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/bigbore/1895GS.asp
loaded with some hammerhead loads from garrett: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570.html
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/bigbore/1895GS.asp
loaded with some hammerhead loads from garrett: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570.html
Maverick223
Member
Good decision, take a pistol if it makes you feel better, but don't ever drop a functioning, loaded rifle...especially a $10k double.Ole Humpback said:
A modern (well any made after about 1898...cause that is about as modern as they get
) bolt action applies a great deal of camming force when extracting the cartridge (primary extraction). This feature is unique to the bolt action repeating rifle, and makes it a great deal more reliable than most anything else (save for actions that have built in redundancy...like a double, drilling, et cetera). This doesn't preclude other actions from use, because it is a fairly slow action to manipulate (but with training it can be workable...just ask the Brits), but for dangerous game hunting the universally accepted two best choices are the double and the controlled round feed bolt action repeater.For defensive use, there are other considerations, because you may not be as aware of your surroundings (you are effectively the quarry not the predator), and may require faster follow-up shots due to the short engagement range and/or simply being started by the beast (bear in this case). Long range capability is unnecessary (it isn't really defense if the bruin is 200yds away), so bigger cartridges are a better choice here IMO, as they tend to incapacitate a little faster than the best of the skinny bullets. For this reason I consider a lever action rifle or a pump action scattergun to be superior for this use.
The BAR is a nice rifle, but there is no way would I consider a SA of any kind for dangerous game (which doesn't include black bear by my definition). They are too prone to jam at the worst of times, especially in adverse conditions (ever notice that the biggest, and meanest are usually located in areas with severe weather?).
Perhaps I am just a traditionalist when it comes to the thumper chamberings, but i'd not trade my H&H for it. The heavily tapered, moderate pressure cartridge affords more than just graceful lines and a rich history...it doesn't stick...ever! I tested mine on a 100 degree day (with typical NC humidity), and let it cook in the sun (hot enough that I didn't want to touch the steel) with maximum loads...came out like it was chilled with ice. The Ruger *might* afford the same forgiving extraction, but i'll not bet my life on it (OTOH I think the .45-70Govt. is heading in the right direction).NOLAEMT said:
Maverick, that is some great info. It also explains why all the dangerous game catridges are only avaliable in CRF single shot or repeater bolt rifles and double rifles. Makes perfect sense to me.
I agree with you that black bear aren't dangerous game, but they aren't exactly safe either. Seeing as how this will be an elk/moose/bear gun, my personal preference would be the BAR in 338 Win Mag. My dad pointed me to an article at Chuckhawks which goes into good detail about the pros & cons of the 338 Win Mag BAR. He also read this one as it compared his 358 to the 338. I have no problem with it being heavy or long barreled as I am young and recoil doesn't bother me too much.
For dangerous game, I'd be looking at the Model 70 Winchester in 416 Rem Mag. Its a 3+1 CRF bolt action for $1300. The cartridge has good size & speed, and most companies make ammo for it. Does that sound like a good choice for brown bear and anything else that could eat or trample me with ease?
Now all I need to do is graduate, get a job, and round out my hunting rifles. I also want a replica 1874 Sharps in 38-55 for an Indiana legal deer rifle (cut down the case length and it works just fine) and a replica Missouri River Hawken's Rifle (50 cal) for muzzle loader season and I'd be set.
I agree with you that black bear aren't dangerous game, but they aren't exactly safe either. Seeing as how this will be an elk/moose/bear gun, my personal preference would be the BAR in 338 Win Mag. My dad pointed me to an article at Chuckhawks which goes into good detail about the pros & cons of the 338 Win Mag BAR. He also read this one as it compared his 358 to the 338. I have no problem with it being heavy or long barreled as I am young and recoil doesn't bother me too much.
For dangerous game, I'd be looking at the Model 70 Winchester in 416 Rem Mag. Its a 3+1 CRF bolt action for $1300. The cartridge has good size & speed, and most companies make ammo for it. Does that sound like a good choice for brown bear and anything else that could eat or trample me with ease?
Now all I need to do is graduate, get a job, and round out my hunting rifles. I also want a replica 1874 Sharps in 38-55 for an Indiana legal deer rifle (cut down the case length and it works just fine) and a replica Missouri River Hawken's Rifle (50 cal) for muzzle loader season and I'd be set.
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