Lee Undersized Die and 9mm

[wiiawiwb]

I'm reloading 9mm for both a Glock 17 and DW ECO using the Lee 4-die set. I've separated my 9mm brass and have been using WIN brass exclusively.

The plunk test passes every time on the Glock but fails 2% of the time with the DW. I've been reading about the Lee Undersized Die and wonder if that might be a solution for that 2%.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[badkarmamib]

Why is it not passing the plunk test? Which dimension is too big? I have found that passing in one barrel and failing in another is usually solved by slightly increasing the crimp.

 

[kingmt]

Smoke the case & show us where it's failing.

 

[rg1]

My experience with the Lee U-die is that it is only useful for thin walled brass when the bullet doesn't have enough neck tension. Don't think it will solve any chambering problems or not passing a gauge check. Some dies on the large side of spec and brass with thinner than normal brass then the Lee U-die will help with neck tension. Winchester brass is not thin walled and will probably not benefit from using a U-die. I'd look elsewhere for your issues.

 

[Walkalong]

Make sure the sizer is all the way down. This is important since the 9MM case is tapered.

Too much crimp will cause problems, so I wouldn't go over a couple thousandths of crimp.

I use a Wilson 9MM case gauge that checks diameter and if it fails that after sizing I simply scrap the case. I figure it has been stressed in the web area (Which is where they stick) and I have plenty of 9MM range brass.

but fails 2% of the time

Not enough to worry with IMHO. Scrap them if adjusting the die doesn't solve it.

And of course the undersized die may fix it.

 

[Jeff H]

If you have the 4 die set, are you using the FCD?

 

[ATLDave]

There are all kinds of reasons that a round might fail to plunk or fail a case gauge, and brass resizing is only one of them. Undersizing won't help if the gun has a short throat and the bullet profile jams into the lands, for instance. This is a common issue with CZ's... and they now own DW.

Nor will undersizing help if you're getting a bullet started asymetrically some of the time and creating a little bulge on the side of the case... a tight-chambered gun or gauge might reject it, but a loose-chambered gun might like it fine.

You really do need to know what the cause of the problem is before you can solve it. Or at least develop a working hypothesis, do what would fix that problem, and see if it goes away.

But I'd look at bullet profile/length/depth before I bought any new reloading hardware.

 

[mdi]

Any time there is a "fit" problem, measure! Measure one of the 2% that fail and compare that to the 98% good cartridges. Where is it too big? Too long? Bulged? Not crimped enough (too much flare left in case)?

 

[kingmt]

Smoking it will be faster & easier. Then we can give better advice.

 

[wiiawiwb]

I do have the 4-die set and I am using the Lee FCD. Here is a picture of two different rounds that did not pass the plunk test.

The two rounds that failed are 1.159 in length. The typical round that passed is 1.160.

The round that passed is .387 wide at the base where indicated by the red arrow in the picture of two rounds. The two rounds that failed are .388 and .389.

 

[kingmt]

That doesn't show anything useful in helping you without smoking it.

 

[Reefinmike]

I certainly wouldnt jump up and buy an undersized die assuming sizing is the problem. Especially because you are having plunk failures with loaded rounds. as others have stated, color the problem round with a marker, chamber it and let us know where u see the color rubbed off. Good chance the bullets are seated out slightly too long for your DW ECO(what is this??) barrel.

 

[Shootshellz]

FWIW I throw Winchester 9mm Luger brass into my scrap brass recycling bucket. The American Rifleman did an article years ago regarding reloading the 9mm Luger cartridge. Short story: they found the use of W-W brass caused big problems, which my experience confirms.

 

[wiiawiwb]

I certainly wouldnt jump up and buy an undersized die assuming sizing is the problem. Especially because you are having plunk failures with loaded rounds. as others have stated, color the problem round with a marker, chamber it and let us know where u see the color rubbed off. Good chance the bullets are seated out slightly too long for your DW ECO(what is this??) barrel.

DW ECO is a Dan Wesson ECO which is a 3.5" officer size 1911. I just edited the post above the include length and width information.

That doesn't show anything useful in helping you without smoking it.

I don't know what "smoking it" means.

 

[ATLDave]

Poly-coated bullets? With a round shoulder and loaded pretty long? I'm guessing it's the bullet profile impinging on the throat. As I said above, CZ tends to cut pretty short throats on their pistols, and it's not unusual for reloaders to find that certain bullet profiles don't work, or have to be seated deeper. And when you add in poly-coating, which is generally going to have a bit more variability in its thickness than, say, jacketing or even plating, if you're just barely, barely, barely able to plunk with 98% of the rounds, having 2% with just enough variance to hang up a touch isn't surprising at all.

I'd be willing to bet a beer that this is what's going on. Not a super expensive one, but better than a Bud'.

ETA: What's the specific bullet? Make, profile/name, and weight.

 

[wiiawiwb]

FWIW I throw Winchester 9mm Luger brass into my scrap brass recycling bucket. The American Rifleman did an article years ago regarding reloading the 9mm Luger cartridge. Short story: they found the use of W-W brass caused big problems, which my experience confirms.

I also a fair supply of Blazer and Federal FC. If these are batter, I can use them. If they are equally as unreliable, I can simply buy some Starline brass and be done with it.

 

[firewrench044]

The under size die works, I use it a lot ( 20,000 to 30,000 cases a year )
My son and granddaughter shoot IDPA, I load for them, I have taught them to pick up the brass
Doing this I have run into many cases fired in an oversized or bad chamber or has the Glock smiley face bulge
The smaller Dies do help, they are 1 thou. smaller in dia. and size the case lower than other dies
The disgard rate on cases changed from 25% to 10% ( do not be afraid to disgard a case it's not expensive )

Lee no longer has a Bulge Buster Die for 9mm ( on some cases ( FC and Blazer ) the extractor ring on the case is bigger
than the case and was breaking the Die )

 

[wiiawiwb]

ETA: What's the specific bullet? Make, profile/name, and weight.

It is a Missouri Bullet 147 gr FP

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=215&category=20&secondary=8&keywords=

 

[ATLDave]

Before doing any of this, mark the base of the case with a marker or something so that you don't later shoot this round!

As an experiment - NOT FOR SHOOTING - put one of those won't-seat rounds back in your press. Put it under the seater die, and run the ram up. Take the round out and confirm it still won't plunk. If it won't, then turn the seating adjustment knob about a quarter turn clockwise (seating shorter/deeper). Run the round through the seating die again. See if it plunks. If it still won't, repeat once more (for a total half-a-turn adjustment). See if it plunks.

Report back on what you find, please.

 

[wiiawiwb]

I also had the same 2% problem loading Berry's plated 124gr RN. Just measured one that doesn't pass the plunk test. It is 1.155 in length and .388 wide.

 

[ATLDave]

If the issue is interference between the ogive of the bullet and the barrel's throat, neither overall length nor width measurements are going to directly tell you anything. The interference would be between a part of the bullet below the tip. Is this making any sense to you?

To help, here's an illustration (taken from a CZ discussion forum... again, CZ's often pose this issue for reloaders, and Dan Wesson is now owned by CZ) showing how different bullet shapes can cause interference between the start of the rifling and the round. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-...OU/_pS6NKuOtrU/w769-h577-no/Bullet+Shapes.jpg

 

[rg1]

I'd first rule out that bullets are seated too long. Not familiar with your bullets but the pics "look" like they are seated long. At near maximum length and just a bit out of concentricity and they would touch the rifling more than a straight seated bullet. First thing I would try would be to take a round that won't chamber and try seating it about .010" to .020" shorter and retry. I've had no issues with Winchester 9MM brass. Actually my favorite 9MM brass. Works flawlessly in 3 pistols and 2 carbine rifles in 9MM. Just a wild guess.

 

[Blue68f100]

There is nothing wrong with Winchester brass. I have some that's been reloaded so many times the headstamp is hard to read. Just because someone has problem with some does not make them bad. If you go by that assumption, there is NO good brass ever made. Normally this is due to improper setup or a bad selection of components. Now Mfg have changed the brass composition several times over decades. There are some years that hold up way better then others.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Make sure the sizer is all the way down. This is important since the 9MM case is tapered.

I've had this happen and it threw me off for a few. Definitely agree... make sure this is done. Often shows up when loading for a tight chambered gun.

 

[Shootshellz]

Sorry, but I still have problems with reloading W-W 9mm Luger brass and I have been reloading for 35+ years. I am able to take as much once fired 9mm Luger indoor range brass as I want so recycling the W-W is no big deal (ca$h in my pocket).