A buddy of mine has kept a pistol he purchased in compliance with NJ law when he lived in his father's house full time. He has kept it ever since in a safe in his bedroom at his father's house for years while he moved from state to state for his job. He now lives in NYC and goes to his Dad's house on weekends and holidays but he has not had a New Jersey driver's license or paid taxes in New Jersey for years. He wants to give the pistol away since having it in NYC is too much of a hassle. The only NJ ID he still has is his NJ FID card. The NJ pistol purchase permit states the seller must be a NJ resident. The question is can someone in his situation consider themselves a resident? Licensed dealers won't get involved in the transfer since they say they can only receive a firearm from someone with two forms of ID showing NJ residency or from another dealer. This is quite a quandary where according to the law, he can transport the firearm in New Jersey with his card which is "good for life" but he cannot take it to NY to send it back here and he thinks he cannot transfer or sell it here since he believes he cannot prove he is a resident. Any ideas or insights?
Legal Limbo in New Jersey...
- Thread starter harryusa
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
He could take it to a dealer in a more free state (PA comes to mind) and sell it to a dealer there. That would comply with federal law, and wouldn't run afoul of any PA state laws.
driftpin
Member
You might also look into gifting the gun to the father of your friend. In some states that's allowed. I know in Mass it's a gray area and some will say its legal and others won't. but with the recent issue in Jersey I would do everything by the book. At least now your friend has a governor who has common sense.
SAM1911:
You know as a matter of fact anyone could walk into a FFL dealer in PA and have them transfer a handgun to another FFL dealer with no question of PA residency?
Driftpin:
New Jersey statue seems to be silent on the transfer or sale of firearms from the seller's aspect. The burden seems to be placed on the purchaser or transferee to obtain an FID card for rifles and shotguns and additionally, a pistol purchaser's permit for each pistol to be purchased. However it is this permit that requires the seller's name and address and indicates seller must be a NJ resident. As for transferring to a family member, according to NJ 2C:58-3a "No person shall sell, give, transfer, assign or otherwise dispose of nor receive...unless purchaser, assignee, donee,...has first secured a permit to purchase...". So except in the case of the death of the gun owner which the law provides different remedies, the owner cannot even give the gun to a relative unless that relative obtains a purchaser's permit and then it is the same problem all over again.
You know as a matter of fact anyone could walk into a FFL dealer in PA and have them transfer a handgun to another FFL dealer with no question of PA residency?
Driftpin:
New Jersey statue seems to be silent on the transfer or sale of firearms from the seller's aspect. The burden seems to be placed on the purchaser or transferee to obtain an FID card for rifles and shotguns and additionally, a pistol purchaser's permit for each pistol to be purchased. However it is this permit that requires the seller's name and address and indicates seller must be a NJ resident. As for transferring to a family member, according to NJ 2C:58-3a "No person shall sell, give, transfer, assign or otherwise dispose of nor receive...unless purchaser, assignee, donee,...has first secured a permit to purchase...". So except in the case of the death of the gun owner which the law provides different remedies, the owner cannot even give the gun to a relative unless that relative obtains a purchaser's permit and then it is the same problem all over again.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Federal law says that a non-licensee (you, your pal, etc) may sell a handgun to a dealer in any state. There is no residency requirement to ask about.
Lovesbeer99
Member
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I live in NJ and happen to have a valid permit. What kind of gun is it.
Lovesbeer99 -
Lovesbeer99 -
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Let me clarify: FEDERALLY, a dealer may purchase a handgun from a resident of any state. That means that PA (or most other state) dealers could purchase that handgun from him without breaking any laws.
As you have found, NJ seems to have odd residency laws which might preclude him selling that gun to a dealer in NJ. (I don't know NJ laws all that well, but NJ law doesn't apply to him if he is a resident of NY selling a gun to a dealer in PA.)
But if he takes the gun to a PA dealer, he doesn't have to show an FOID card from a state he doesn't live in.
As you have found, NJ seems to have odd residency laws which might preclude him selling that gun to a dealer in NJ. (I don't know NJ laws all that well, but NJ law doesn't apply to him if he is a resident of NY selling a gun to a dealer in PA.)
But if he takes the gun to a PA dealer, he doesn't have to show an FOID card from a state he doesn't live in.
I do understand that an FFL dealer is allowed to engage in the interstate commerce of firearms. I thought that is the whole point of the FFL. But I don't think it is an oddity of NJ residency that make the FFL'd guys we have spoken to recoil like we're going to bring the plague into their stores. Furthermore, I am not sure there is anything odd about the NJ residency requirements that is much different from other states. What you seem to be saying is someone could walk into any FFL dealer outside of NJ and they should not have to prove they are from the state the dealer resides in (or by regulation, it doesn't matter to the dealer) and they should be able to have that dealer send it anywhere in the country from there.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Yes. You understand me correctly.
According to federal law, a regular Joe citizen (not a dealer) may sell a firearm to a resident of his own state without going through a dealer -- as long as his state laws don't make more restrictions.
A regular Joe citizen may sell any firearm to a dealer in any state.
A regular Joe citizen may BUY a rifle or shotgun from a dealer in any state as long as the laws of his state and the dealer's state are all followed.
A regular Joe citizen may buy a handgun from a dealer ONLY in his own state.
Again, unless the state laws involved make further requirements.
So, I, as a resident of PA, could take my rifle, pistol, or shotgun to, for example, Washington state and sell it to a FFL dealer there.
According to federal law, a regular Joe citizen (not a dealer) may sell a firearm to a resident of his own state without going through a dealer -- as long as his state laws don't make more restrictions.
A regular Joe citizen may sell any firearm to a dealer in any state.
A regular Joe citizen may BUY a rifle or shotgun from a dealer in any state as long as the laws of his state and the dealer's state are all followed.
A regular Joe citizen may buy a handgun from a dealer ONLY in his own state.
Again, unless the state laws involved make further requirements.
So, I, as a resident of PA, could take my rifle, pistol, or shotgun to, for example, Washington state and sell it to a FFL dealer there.
Yes, yes it is an oddity of NJ law. NJ is a tough place for firearms owners and firearms dealers alike. These issues don't crop up almost anywhere else.
Not sure what that has to do with it, but if they sell it to the dealer he may sell it to another dealer in any state, or he may sell it to an individual in his own state, OR to an individual in another state, as long as he transfers that gun through a dealer in that buyer's home state.
NavyLCDR
member
For that matter, the PA resident could sell the gun to an FFL dealer in Washington and ship it via UPS or FEDEX to the dealer in Washington!
I think the New Jersey dealers are full of bologna. I'll have to look up New Jersey statutes here in a second.
Ohio Gun Guy
Member
because all of this would stop criminals....right....
Ganster on the corner to other gangster, hey I cant sell you this piece, my ID is invalid and we'll be committing a crime.
I know it's off topic a little, but the obsurdity of it is just glaring.
Ganster on the corner to other gangster, hey I cant sell you this piece, my ID is invalid and we'll be committing a crime.
I know it's off topic a little, but the obsurdity of it is just glaring.
NavyLCDR
member
I don't see anything in New Jersey statutes which requires this. A New Jersey FFL should be able to receive a firearm from a resident of any state.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-5/atf-p-5300-5-new_jersey.pdf
As Sam1911 stated, if your buddy can't get a New Jersey FFL to take the gun, just take it to an FFL in any of the other 49 states and they will take it from him. All of Sam1911 posts are exactly correct.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
How does one go about getting a quote from a forum thread framed to hang on their wall?
NavyLCDR
member
Snapfish....
The entire scenario was told to the two FFL dealers here in NJ as I told you earlier and they both said "you can't just bring a gun in here..." One guy actually waved his arms like no no no! So these guys are ignorant of the law or they don't understand this is a gun that is already in New Jersey and can be legally transported in NJ or they think some guy from NY is going to transport a handgun across state lines to give it away. I'll find a PA dealer tomorrow and confirm this.
It seems crazy that he has to go to PA and have an FFL transfer the pistol back to a NJ dealer so he can give his pistol away to a NJ resident.
It seems crazy that he has to go to PA and have an FFL transfer the pistol back to a NJ dealer so he can give his pistol away to a NJ resident.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Just because the law doesn't prohibit something, doesn't mean that a dealer is forced to sell. A dealer may refuse a sale for just about any reason at all -- including their own mistaken understanding, or that a local cop or Police chief once told them not to do something, or just an odd hunch.
Even if you have it in writing from your state's Attorney General and the head of the BATFE, you can't force the dealer to make a sale.
Your friend will just have to do what it takes to get the gun sold. Unfortunately, as he is no longer a resident of NJ, someone will have to pay shipping and transfer fees to have the dealers handle this gun. Might be worth more to simply sell it to a dealer and let it go at that. By the time the giftee finishes paying the fees, the 'gift' could easily cost him over $100.
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NavyLCDR
member
Sell it on Gunbroker and specify that residents of New Jersey will not be honored. When someone buys it on gunbroker, ship the handgun to the buyer's FFL via FEDEX or UPS, with a copy of the seller's driver's license and be done with it, and make money off the gun.
he can transport the firearm in New Jersey with his card which is "good for life"
If transport is dependent on the NJ FID card this is incorrect. Your friend no longer lives in NJ so the ID is technically no good. He could transport the gun legally to a range or a dealer without the ID card anyway.
AFAIK there is no prohibition on a NJ FFL in acquiring a gun from an out of state resident. It should be expected that the FFL will want ID to accurately record where the gun came from in his bound book.
Keep in mind that even if the handgun is gifted in NJ a pistol purchase permit is needed by the receiver to keep it legal.
If transport is dependent on the NJ FID card this is incorrect. Your friend no longer lives in NJ so the ID is technically no good. He could transport the gun legally to a range or a dealer without the ID card anyway.
AFAIK there is no prohibition on a NJ FFL in acquiring a gun from an out of state resident. It should be expected that the FFL will want ID to accurately record where the gun came from in his bound book.
Keep in mind that even if the handgun is gifted in NJ a pistol purchase permit is needed by the receiver to keep it legal.
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