Tinpig
Member
Here's an M1 I received from CMP.
A Springfield with a SN duplicated by Winchester...the Army electro-penciled an "A" suffix on the heel of the receiver. This isn't just an identifier, it's an altered serial number.
Tinpig
Legality of selling gun with altered serial #
- Thread starter McCall911
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Here's an M1 I received from CMP.
A Springfield with a SN duplicated by Winchester...the Army electro-penciled an "A" suffix on the heel of the receiver. This isn't just an identifier, it's an altered serial number.
Tinpig
Shadow 7D
Member
Done by THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
prior to the ATF....
prior to the ATF....
And note they did NOT try to change the existing number, just added another marking so they could tell them apart.
And the military can do darn near whatever it wants with its weapons (just like they can with just about any government property they hold if they want/need to).
There are aircraft in the AF inventory that have no airworthiness certificates (and the military can issue their own).
Even after many decades they remain 'exterminator.'
The SR-71 stayed in that class from the beginning to the end.
And the military can do darn near whatever it wants with its weapons (just like they can with just about any government property they hold if they want/need to).
There are aircraft in the AF inventory that have no airworthiness certificates (and the military can issue their own).
Even after many decades they remain 'exterminator.'
The SR-71 stayed in that class from the beginning to the end.
Tinpig
Member
That's what I figured at first, but the CMP paperwork records the "A" as part of the serial number. So at some point the SN was altered.
Shadow 7D
Member
Which he just pointed out
doesn't matter because it was done by the military, under military rules and laws..., now, in civilian market, under the ATF thumb
I would suggest that it would be unwise for you to alter, deface.....
doesn't matter because it was done by the military, under military rules and laws..., now, in civilian market, under the ATF thumb
I would suggest that it would be unwise for you to alter, deface.....
Joe in fla
Member
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2011
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- 127
You said:
When the new adjustable sights for the M1 carbine covered the serial numbers on some of the guns, the military would restamp the serial number in a visible place. Of course, the original stamp could be verified by removing the sight.
First, that was done by the US military and the US government arsenals so ATF policy/laws don't apply to them.
Second, I have a large number of M-1 carbines with the SNs obscured by adjustable sights and NONE of them has had the SN relocated! Relocating the SN was certainly not a standard procedure. Where was the number on your's moved to?
Regardless, the SNs are still present even if they are hard to see and they have clearly NOT been "removed, obliterated, or altered" so IMO the carbines are still legal.
When the new adjustable sights for the M1 carbine covered the serial numbers on some of the guns, the military would restamp the serial number in a visible place. Of course, the original stamp could be verified by removing the sight.
First, that was done by the US military and the US government arsenals so ATF policy/laws don't apply to them.
Second, I have a large number of M-1 carbines with the SNs obscured by adjustable sights and NONE of them has had the SN relocated! Relocating the SN was certainly not a standard procedure. Where was the number on your's moved to?
Regardless, the SNs are still present even if they are hard to see and they have clearly NOT been "removed, obliterated, or altered" so IMO the carbines are still legal.
evan price
Member
Last year I was offered a shotgun for sale, Mossberg 500.
The serial number area on the receiver- and no other area on the gun anywhere- was scoured down to bare metal. The serial number was still visible and legible.
The seller told me it was from years of being put into a gun rack, and the rack arm scratched the receiver. I guess only ONE arm scratched, and it was conveniently right on the serial number, which isn't on an area that would normally be touched by a gun rack IMHO.
I passed.
The serial number area on the receiver- and no other area on the gun anywhere- was scoured down to bare metal. The serial number was still visible and legible.
The seller told me it was from years of being put into a gun rack, and the rack arm scratched the receiver. I guess only ONE arm scratched, and it was conveniently right on the serial number, which isn't on an area that would normally be touched by a gun rack IMHO.
I passed.
frankenstein406
Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2011
- Messages
- 816
What happens then if someone steals a gun, scratches the serial number up. Police recover it and owner wants to resell it?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Good question. If the serial number is seriously "obliterated" and/or deliberately removed/altered, the police should probably consider the firearm to now be illegal to own.
It would be just as if the thief had cut the barrels down below 18"(shotgun) or 16"(rifle) -- or had done some file work and made your semi-auto into an unregistered full-auto.
In those cases, you wouldn't be getting it back -- and having it in your possession if they somehow missed the alterations and did give it to you would still open you to all the risks of a federal felony conviction for possession of an unregistered title II firearm.
I'd think that an altered or removed serial number would be about the same. Now, if one officer decided it was still o.k. enough to return to you, great, but that wouldn't mean that another officer later wouldn't feel obliged to give you trouble over it.
That would be a very unfortunate situation, but the safe thing to do would probably be to part it out and build/buy a one. But that's just my humble opinion.
jimmyraythomason
Member
That is the best thing to do IMO. Buying a new gun is FAR cheaper(and safer) than defending yourself against an illegal gun charge,even if you win.
Kenneth
Member
Several years ago I purchased a sporting rifle, a 30-06 built on an old Mauser action, from a reputable dealer. The only markings on the gun are the Spandau stamp and date (1914). The serial number had been buffed off by whomever built the gun. The lack of a serial number did not pose any problems for the dealer who sold it to me, the sales transaction was completely above board and I have a receipt that identifies it as "Mauser 30-06, Spandau 1914". I tried once to trade it at a big box sporting goods store whose clerks in the firearms department tend to act like federal agent wannabe's, they would not take it due to the lack of a serial number but no hassles otherwise. There must be some exception to the rules that allowed the legal sale to me and the subsequent legal possession by me.
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does anyone know when specifically the serial number laws came about? in the case above of kenneth it would seem like that gun is just older than the serial number requirements?
edit, it seems that the requirement was made with the gca '68, if so were all serial numbers on guns before that purely a manufacturing/distribution aid?
also, i have a 2 bp firearms, 1 of them has a conversion cylinder, and none of them have serial numbers, is the sn requirement only for modern firearms?
edit, it seems that the requirement was made with the gca '68, if so were all serial numbers on guns before that purely a manufacturing/distribution aid?
also, i have a 2 bp firearms, 1 of them has a conversion cylinder, and none of them have serial numbers, is the sn requirement only for modern firearms?
Ruger MkIII's serial number appears to be etched in. The depth is pretty close to nothing.
As for OP's question, in most cases it would be easy to rub a stone/sandpaper over the frame until the scratches are gone, then refinish. Trying to scratch out a stamped serial number is stupid. Even if you used a grinder and completely removed it, you can still bring out the number with an acid etch.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, probably. Prior to 1968 firearms were not required to have a serial number. An old Mauser probably did have a serial number at one point -- and removing that NOW would be illegal -- but it may never have had one. Knowing that, the dealer followed the protocol for selling a gun that did not have any serial number.
If there is evidense to show that there WAS a serial number which was at some point ground off, then that's a touchy one.
No surprise that the big box store guys wouldn't touch it. For someone in their shoes, "safe" really is usually better than "sorry."
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
The ATF says, that the serial number must be marked on the receiver or frame, and must be no less than 1/16" in height and no less than 0.003" deep. That's not very big, and not very deep.
I'm pretty sure Ruger -- they of the owners' manual engraved into the side of the barrel -- is playing by the rules.
I'm pretty sure Ruger -- they of the owners' manual engraved into the side of the barrel -- is playing by the rules.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Yes. Industry has long found that having a high-dollar product identified by a specific, individual serail number is a good idea.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Technically, a muzzle-loading BP firearm is (usually) not considered a firearm. I've read somewhere that imported BP guns are still required to have one, but I could be wrong on that.
I don't know exactly how the cartridge conversion kits get around the laws on this, except that, if you MAKE a Title I firearm (like a cartridge-firing revolver) for your own use, there is no federal requirement to put a serial number on it. It is just possible that this part which enables your muzzle-loader to become a "modern" firearm is considered to be so.
But that's speculation on my part. I really don't know. A conversion part by itself would not meet the US Code definitions for a Title I firearm, so no serial number would be required.
No, there record of the serial number was altered.
The original number appears to be completely intact and un-altered.
And the marking they added does no met the BATFE rules for civilian guns anyway.
There is still nothing preventing you from adding any markings you want, including letters, numbers, your name & address, etc.
The law is that you may not alter or remove the factory number if one is present.
Patriot1/3
member
Any type of intentional disfigurement on a serial number is considered a felony.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Inexpensive single shot .22s and shotguns made as utility guns or farmer's helpers were often not considered valuable enough to warrant serial numbers before the 1968 gun control act mandated that all firearms be serially numbered. They are grandfathered (legal) even though they don't have serial numbers.
mgkdrgn
Member
I'm 100% sure .... it is (illegal)
Tinpig
Member
No, it's not paint, it's electropenciled right through into the steel.
The rifle was manufactured by Springfield Armory with the serial number 1628706.
The serial number was given an "A" suffix by the Army in order to distinguish it from Winchester's duplicate 1628706.
When CMP sold the rifle they recorded the serial number as 1628706A.
Therefore the serial number has been altered.
If BATF doesn't care because the government did it that's great.
Tinpig
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