Lessons from a retired Marine

[The Lone Haranguer]

In 2007, a retired Marine with a concealed handgun permit got into a shootout with two robbers in a sandwich shop. He complied with their initial demands and gave up his money, but when they ordered him and the store personnel into a back room to possibly be killed, he opened fire, killing one robber and seriously wounding the other. No good guys were hurt.

The Retired Marine and the Robbers - Massad Ayoob

I've often quoted passages from the above article but have never distilled all my thoughts on it into a single post. Here are some lessons I believe can be learned from this incident.

1 - Determine beforehand your personal "choke point" or "trigger" (no pun intended) at which you will take action.

They announce a stickup. Common sense and military training and experience combine to tell the Marine these men have the upper hand at the moment. Slowly, calmly, he raises his hands high enough for the robbers to believe he is complying. On the other side of the counter, the store manager is complying, too.

The Marine gives up his wallet, with several hundred dollars inside. He doesn't think it's worth killing anyone over, let alone dying for.

But that's not enough. The robbers order him into the back of the shop, into a rest room.

And that changes everything.

Every responsible person who carries a gun has given some thought to how and when they would use it. The Marine is no exception. He has given up his money, but long beforehand, he has determined he will not be taken at gunpoint into the back of a robbery premises and proned-out on the floor. He knows that too many times, victims have not gotten up from there.

As you can see, he did not open fire to protect his money or stop the robbery, but in defense of his life.

2 - Carry enough gun.
Imagine yourself in this situation with a .32 or .380 pocket pistol or even (IMO) a five-shot .38 revolver. Is this really what you want?

3 - Don't skimp on carry gear.

The second thug turns, running toward the front door. The Marine realizes there's a bullet hole in that door now ... and the slide on his pistol has locked back empty. The first robber has collapsed.

He reflexively reaches for the spare magazine, but it has slipped down inside his jeans. He can't get hold of it. He has to take a moment to reach down and unbuckle his belt before he can grasp the second magazine.

If the second robber had chosen to stand and fight, this could have been disastrous.

4 - Become familiar with your firearm.

Long familiar with the 1911, the Marine was able to bring up his Para LDA and fire the shots ending the encounter in a smooth and fluid movement born of years of training. He observes, "l carried with the safety on. 1 have no recollection of releasing the safety. I started firing."

If you choose a firearm with a manual safety or other mechanism that must be released or activated (e.g., the H&K P7's cocking lever) before firing, or choose to carry a DA or DAO firearm with a safety engaged, this action must become ingrained, without your having to think about it. If you think you might forget to do so under stress, by all means, don't purchase a firearm with such a mechanism or engage a safety. It might become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
4a - You will fight as you have trained. See above.

5 - Sometimes, not even a .45 is enough.

The second was identified as Frederick Gadson, age 21, of Fort Lauderdale. A police manhunt ended when a K-9 found him almost 300 yards from the Subway shop, collapsed near a bank. He had sustained a gunshot wound to the thorax from the Marine's weapon, striking some 2" above the heart.

This would seem to be a pretty well-placed shot, but could hardly be called a "one-shot stop." To be fair, it did accomplish its goal, which was to take him out of the fight. But had he stood his ground, the outcome could have been much different.

6 - Don't get overly wrapped up in perfect shooting stances and other techniques.

"I am not happy with my accuracy. There was no time to take up a modified Weaver stance or anything close to it. The best way 1 could describe it is the reaction you have when you walk into a spider web and think the spider is on you. You reflexively brush, urgently or even frantically, to get it off," the retired Marine Major explains.

Perfect technique, he discovered, is not always possible in a gunfight. He remembers, "I was firing one handed as I emerged from the bathroom--we're talking seconds or fractions thereof--the last shots were fired to my right with body facing the opposite hallway wall at about a three-quarters angle."

Also mentioned is that the gun did not come up into his line of sight, which means that either he used some form of "point shooting" or that he did align his sights but did not remember doing so. So that debate won't be settled here. Whatever technique he may have used, he did score an impressive hit rate.

Discuss.

 

[mickeygrimreaperblueeyes]

TLH, good post.

I agree, the application of the weapon, the accessibility of the extra mags and all of the possible exchanges of fire and such have to be accounted for in each situation. I like shoulder rigs in the winter and waist rigs in the summer. You have to figure out how easy it really is to access your magazines too. If presented with cover, utilize it. If not, just shoot at the intended recipient till he stops his unlawful actions. Only reload if they are still firing at you. If they stop and run, don't shoot them in the back.

 

[TheProf]

I like the comment of "have enough gun". My journey of CCW started with carrying a .22 NAA mini revolver......to eventually a Glock 27 (.40 cal)....back down to a 9mm (Glock 26)...but is seriously considering going back to the G27.

(Will never carry less than a 9mm....)

 

[cbrgator]

That incident in the article happened at a Subway about 3 minutes from the house I grew up in. I passed it on my way to and from high school every morning and it is about 100 feet from my middle school's baseball field.

I remember when that whole thing happened, it made all of the local newspapers. I was in town for the summer from college. He was generally considered a hero, except of course for the families of the criminals, or should I say "victims." Their families could not understand how a man who shot two people could go free. I guess they assume only criminals are allowed to use guns.

 

[John Wayne]

Dammit! Every time I put off another Midway order I have to come across one of these threads. I swear, they get all my money

Couple questions/comments though:

Any idea what ammo was used by the Marine?

And while no one has ever been in a gunfight and wished they had a smaller gun, accessing the gun is just as much of an issue. Whether it means not having access to the gun because it was large and required you to carry it in an awkward position, or because it was heavy and you left it at home, the first rule is having a gun. The second is being able to get to it quick enough.

 

[cbrgator]

Any idea what ammo was used by the Marine?

Per the article...

I was using Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket.

 

[Water-Man]

His choice of ammo was probably based on him carrying a 1911.

 

[wideym]

Great outcome and thought provoking, but it turns me off when the phrase "bring enough gun" is thrown into the mix.

Just having a gun, no matter the caliber, is usually enough to turn any situation around. I carry a small .32acp Beretta, due to back and neck injuries, but it's that or go unarmed altogether.

 

[AOK]

4 - Become familiar with your firearm.

4a - You will fight as you have trained.

-------

I am a big believer in 4 and 4a but all are great points.

To add to #4, I think it's important to be familiar with your gear as well.

James Yeager says you want to become unconsciously competent when it comes to running your gun. A perfect example is the marine flipping off the safety and didn't even have to think about it. In addition, while he can't say if he got a sight picture, he says he may have and didn't even realize it which would be another sign of him being unconsciously competent. I believe neither of these examples would be possible without #4 or #4a.

 

[MikeNice]

I hate when people say "bring enough gun."

The NYPD has proven that 21 shots of 9x19 isn't enough gun if you aren't aiming right. Of course they also proved that three shots of 9x19 is enough in the same situation. They killed hte guy they were trying to protect and his attacker survived.

Then we have verified reports of police officers being killed with a single shot of .22mag. So, it seems to me the lesson people should learn is, carry the biggest gun you are comfortable with.

If you can conceal it, get it out quickly when needed, and shoot it well, then that is "enough gun."

 

[Al Thompson]

Agree with Mike. All handguns are poor stoppers. They are, however, easy to carry.

I would be interested in knowing the good guys training and competition back ground. Sounds to me that he was pretty firmly in the "unconsciously competent" category.

 

[scaatylobo]

SHOT PLACEMENT - s'all

It is shot placement that will - or will not end a confrontation.

If your like most who EDC/CCW then you will not get to fight to a long gun with your handgun.

So learn to use it as it has to be used = to stop the threat.

As stated,practice as you will use it,shoot realistic distances and then increase that to find your point of MISSING,and hitting innocent persons.

NOW you know where to draw that line.

That Marine did well,not perfect but he lived and so he wins the cupie doll AND the cigar.

I practice with all my gear and in all weather and clothing conditions.

The same reason I sometimes carry a pocket pistol = so I can get to my main battle pistol.

 

[brandon_mcg]

thank you for the post! i need to observe point #3 "don't skimp on carry gear"

i sometimes will go to midway and sort by price lowest to highest and will get the cheapest product. i can only imagine the feeling of dread that came over this marine when he realized that he could not access his extra mag.

after reading this i think i will go practice.

 

[Creature]

Imagine yourself in this situation with a .32 or .380 pocket pistol or even (IMO) a five-shot .38 revolver. Is this really what you want?

A five shot revolver? Sure! Because it seems from the story that the first robber was dead on his feet after three shots ...and the other was turning tail and running for the door. Seems to me that a five-shot revolver would have been more than enough for this particular situation.

 

[Mountainman38]

I hate when people say "bring enough gun."

The NYPD has proven that 21 shots of 9x19 isn't enough gun if you aren't aiming right. Of course they also proved that three shots of 9x19 is enough in the same situation. They killed hte guy they were trying to protect and his attacker survived.

Then we have verified reports of police officers being killed with a single shot of .22mag. So, it seems to me the lesson people should learn is, carry the biggest gun you are comfortable with.

The problem here is that anecdotes do NOT prove a point. There are lots of fluke incidents, but they don't mean a .22 Mag is as effective as a 9 MM or a .45 ACP.

Just because I'm extremely comfortable shooting my .22 SA doesn't mean I carry that for self-defense. I have a much bigger gun for that, and that's what I will carry.

If you can conceal it, get it out quickly when needed, and shoot it well, then that is "enough gun."

The first three parts are indeed necessary, but only when combined with a consistently potent weapon will they be something you can reasonably count on to be enough.

 

[Creature]

The first three parts are indeed necessary, but only when combined with a consistently potent weapon will they be something you can reasonably count on to be enough.

There are more than enough dead people to show that 32acp, 380acp and 38spl are reasonably "enough". Likewise, there are enough dead people around to show that one doesn't need to carry eighteen reloads to be suitably armed.

I love when those who have an inferiority complex about pistol calibers throw the anecdotal card. The subject of pistol calibers has been discussed ad nauseam and the consensus is that placement and penetration are the key to an effective shot.

 

[scaatylobo]

Creature +

Creature,you are correct,BUT there is no "known" amount of ammunition needed for any and every fight YOU might get into.

So do you adjust the reload count as you think of your daily travels or do you just carry "enough" for all scenerios you can envision.

I am not being confrontational,just asking your view s'all.

Me.I carry all I can envision I might need = daily.

 

[Creature]

I don't adjust my reload count, I adjust my situation awareness as best I can and depart the areas that exceed my level of comfort. My six shot snubby loaded with 38Spl is for me enough to get myself and my loved ones far enough away from a dangerous situation.

As you pointed out, there is no known amount of ammunition for any and every fight. One must try to choose who they are around and where they are to the best that they can control.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

"Carry enough gun" generated some comments. Good. It doesn't mean I agree with all of them, but that is what discussions are for.

The second robber was hit two inches above the heart with a .45 yet was able to run ~300 yards. How would a .22 (even a magnum), .25, .32, etc. have fared? Second, the good guy used a handgun with a seven-shot capacity, which was specified to have been fully loaded, and shot it to slide lock. We know one robber took three hits, the other, one. The bullet hole in the door was likely a miss. That leaves two more rounds unaccounted for - probable misses. Unfortunately (and I know this sounds bad), with all the parties bobbing and weaving about in the heat of battle, you may have to allow for missing with at least some of your shots. So that five-shot revolver would not have been "enough gun," at least in this case. This is also worthy of note:

With the Para Carry LDA still in evidence until the trial of the second armed robber is over, the Marine is now carrying a single action Para-Ordnance Hawg .45, comforted by its ten-plus-one cartridge capacity.

I gather from this that he didn't think seven shots were "enough," either. And I will add a seventh point:

7 - Have a replacement for your handgun.
Not only will your handgun be taken from you and held in evidence, but the aftermath of a shooting is a really bad time to be unarmed. It is not inconceivable that friends or family of the person you shot may want to seek revenge on you.

 

[Fred Fuller]

The second robber was hit two inches above the heart

And the bullet went WHERE after impact? All that tells you is the POI (point of impact) of the bullet- which is essentially meaningless.

There are some excellent trainers working today who go out of their way to make sure their students understand that they are shooting at THREE-dimensional targets in real life, and that where the bullet impacts is less important than where the bullet goes once it gets INSIDE the target. They teach you to shoot at the important stuff you can't see, in other words.

Not all of them use the specific approach covered at http://www.tacticalanatomy.com/, but the general principles apply. Give it some thought...

lpl

ps- One of those instructors is Louis Awerbuck, who also says fairly often that "No magazine is ever big enough." Mindset and Skillset always trump Toolset...

 

[Bubba613]

I hate threads like this because you cannot generalize from one incident. Is 9mm effective? How about .308? People have been shot by both and some lived and some died.
The truth of the matter is having a gun is better than not having one. Being skilled with one is better than not being skilled with one. And being lucky beats being good any day of the week.

 

[Creature]

The truth of the matter is having a gun is better than not having one. Being skilled with one is better than not being skilled with one. And being lucky beats being good any day of the week.

Exactly.

The second robber was hit two inches above the heart with a .45 yet was able to run ~300 yards. How would a .22 (even a magnum), .25, .32, etc. have fared?

Likely just as well as the marine's 45ACP hits. I would be willing to bet that after the marine's first shot, let alone the first hit, the first robber's hostile intentions had evaporated and that both robbers were only interested in fleeing the scene...

 

[Mountainman38]

There are more than enough dead people to show that 32acp, 380acp and 38spl are reasonably "enough". Likewise, there are enough dead people around to show that one doesn't need to carry eighteen reloads to be suitably armed.

This statement shows a disconnect from reality. Just because something CAN kill you, in no way means it's the optimal weapon to carry. A lot of people have been killed with knives, but I'm certainly not going to go for my folder when someone starts shooting at me.

I love when those who have an inferiority complex about pistol calibers throw the anecdotal card. The subject of pistol calibers has been discussed ad nauseam and the consensus is that placement and penetration are the key to an effective shot.

More unreality. What you love has no interest for me -- so stop trying to show your superiority by belittling someone you disagree with. You think that because a .25 ACP HAS killed someone, it's just as effective as a .45 ACP -- or even BETTER, because it's a lot easier to carry. Using a few anecdotes in now way proves a point, whether you can understand that or not.

 

[Mountainman38]

...Likely just as well as the marine's 45ACP hits. I would be willing to bet that after the marine's first shot, let alone the first hit, the first robber's hostile intentions had evaporated and that both robbers were only interested in fleeing the scene...

You quote someone asking how a .22, .32, or other small round would work against an assailant, and say it would work just as well as a .45 ACP?! Amazing. You really do believe in magic guns -- one shot, and everybody scatters! Of course high round count isn't necessary -- who cares about misses in the intense stress of defending your life -- that first shot's gonna send 'em scurrying like a covey of flushed quail!

You can believe whatever you want to convince yourself of, but common sense will tell you that getting hit with a more powerful round in the same spot as a weaker round is going to do more damage.

You go ahead and carry your 5-shot snubbie and feel smug, and I'll carry my 15 shot Glock and know that there are still a lot of situations I won't be completely prepared for. I'm willing to accept reality, and not believe that everyone will run screaming as soon as I fire the first round from my .22 derringer.

 

[Creature]

I never belittled anyone nor did I say that a 5 or 6 shot snubby was the "optimal" weapon for every situation. I merely countered that the poster was comparing 45ACP to smaller calibers as if it was the caliber that made most difference. Which, in this case, it didn't.

I pointed out that in the case of the marine vs two robbers, the choice of caliber OBVIOUSLY had little to do with the outcome...obvious because one robber was still capable of running 300 yards after being shot above the heart with a 45ACP.

The argument I was making is that it really didn't matter what the lone marine had as his weapon. What mattered is that he had a weapon at all and that he employed it.

Secondarily but just as important is that after the first shot, seemingly the fight was over for the robbers.