Lessons learned? Miami shootout...

[Bear Gulch]

Use of rifles and shotguns by those SAs would have seriously changed the out come.

Further don't count on bullet expansion, placement and large heavy bullet are more apt to be useful. Just my .02.

 

[Sean Smith]

Wow, this old mummy has been dug up again. OK, here goes.

I would argue that shot placement per se was not a lesson of this shootout at all. There were several wonderfully placed shots by the FBI... head shots, heart shots, spinal shots. But many of them failed to stop anyway.

The real handgun lesson? Even with shot placement, handguns are pretty ineffective weapons. You need to assume that you will need MULTIPLE well-placed shots to do the job.

But ultimately, the overall problem was one of not being prepared for the enemy in question. All kinds of big and small problems with the shootout ultimately can be traced back to this.

 

[knowledgegreen]

Lesson 3, It isn't about killing bad guys, but about surviving the fight

Well stated Double Naught

 

[foghornl]

If your enemy is known to be well-versed in long arms, and is willing to use them, bring your own long arms...and a lot of friends with long arms.

Do not expect any handgun round to be an immediate fight-ender...unless your handgun is a 40 MM Bofors Cannon.

If your 'adversary study' indicates you need a 5-to-one manpower advantage, you really need at least a 10-to-1 advantage.

 

[Otisimo]

I said

"Bring a friggin rifle ya dumbass feds ya."

ACP said,

"I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in that you probably didn't intentionally mean to be disrespectful to those SA's involved in this shootout or the ones who died."

I did not intend disrespect to the good guys here. These guys were trying to stop some pyscho killers, definitely takes some cojones. I live down here and this is not uncommon.

It is just sad that the level of training and weapons issued were so inneffective.

 

[MK11]

Baby Face Nelson killed two FBI agents armed with .45-caliber Tommy guns before he went down himself. That kind of refutes the idea that another caliber might have prevailed in Miami (or the romantic notion that "men were men" in law enforcement back in the '20s and '30s).

 

[Old Fud]

I don't Understand -- why ONLY Miami and N Hollywood?

I have been reading about the in-depth studies and analysis of this shootout for more than 2 years now. It's been done, and done, and done some more by every expert in the country.
Ditto the North Hollywood shootout.

My question is "Why just these two?"
Why aren't "some", "Most", or even ALL multiple-0fficer-shot situations given in-depth post mortems with "lessons learned" Shared nationally.

Least June, 4 Birminham Ala police officers went out to make what they thought was a minor arrest. Three wound up dead that afternoon.
It was immediately reported that this was the THIRD multiple-officer-dead incident in Birmingham in less than a year.

There was a blast of public indignation nationwide for one week.
Believe me, the news articles left dozens of un-answered questions, including the fact the city arrested two people for the crime right after stating for the record they knew they hadn't done it.
Then it died.

I've been searching and searching and find NO sign that any follow-up has been done.

Which brings me full circle.
Why is one shootout in Florida many years ago still being hashed? And
Why does 3 dead in Birmingham mean nothing?

Confused Fud

 

[buzz_knox]

The Miami incident was (IIRC) the single greatest loss of life for the FBI, so it made national news.

The North Hollywood incident was also straight out of the movies, was witnessed live due to media coverage, and was one of the worst such events ever.

 

[ACP]

Thanks for the clarification, Otisimo.

 

[David N]

Miami Shootout

Molonlabe-

Thanks (!!!) for the gunzone link. I still consider myself a newcomer to the worlds of guns and self defense and am trying to learn all I can.

Sincerely,

Dave
"NeveraVictimAgain"

 

[molonlabe]

Wow, this old mummy has been dug up again. OK, here goes.

This is at least the third time I posted the after action report that was perhaps the best I have read since it includes the autopsy. I enjoy reading the replies. I agree with azrael.

They were also taken out by someone who used aggressive military tactics and laid down sufficient suppressive fire. Hindsight is always 20/20 and you can be assured that those men wanted to go home that night to their wives and families. They definitely underestimated the perps and paid the ultimate price for it. They deserve honor and respect for their bravery and their marksmanship was outstanding but in the end ineffective for their survivability.

That's my take

 

[PzGren]

Never expect a bullet to have the same effect on different people, or game. While one will drop instantly, the other might not even notice the lethality in an adrenalin rush.

The will to fight aggressively is more important than the choice of weapons, or even 5.11 pants.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

And to add to what buzz_knox said, other multiple officer shootouts don't have the coverage, notoriety, or analysis information as available on such a large scale. Both episodes were something of law enforcement fiascos. You would think that such events would result in significant changes by other LE agencies, but for the most part, that is not the case, and so the issues are continually discussed.

For example, both of these incidents are well known and the implication that had officers had rifles that the incidents might have turned out differently. However, it hasn't been until a few months ago that Dallas PD decided that maybe they needed to outfit beat officers with rifles. Was this because of the fact that they finally understood Miami and North Hollywood? Nope. They understood it just fine. The clincher was when Dallas and local area cops faced bad guys with full auto guns.

 

[Texian Pistolero]

The "Miami shootout" can be condensed into one simple lesson.

DON'T TAKE A HANDGUN TO A RIFLE FIGHT.

Next question?

P.S The simple fact is that these two bad guys,

in THIS case,

were heavy hitters (highly trained, and CURRENTLY trained ex-military MP's.).

They were FAR MORE talented than the run of the mill scrotes that LEO normally encounter.

Pistol caliber is not the issue.

(Though the FBI bureaucracy chose to make it so.)

This is not to critisize the FBI agents involved.

They were operating in an "LEO attitude ambiance" that was "reasonable" at that time and place.

But, fact is,

they faced two VERY bad dudes who had WEEKLY been out in the Everglades busting hundreds of 5.56 caps to "stay current".

Not every scrote is a mediocrity.

 

[PzGren]

Them being "talented" is a good point. Platt had a lot of fighting in him.

Motivation is more important than anything else. Bad guys can be good fighters and do not necessarily cower down when confronted with death. The old Hollywood movies gave us a dangerously wrong impression.

The record of the Waffen SS can stress this point. Most Waffen SS men that I have met, and who admitted to having been in it, where not at all physically very strong people or crack shots but hard headed old farts who had believed what they had been told - and so motivated, it carried them through all the hot spots. Generally they were grossly outnumbered but considered themselves superior and would not accept defeat before death.

Once somebody has made this decision, fighting him will be on hard terms and to the bitter end.

 

[Horsesense]

The thing that jumped out at me was the effectiveness of suppressive fire and the fact that LEO, because of public safety concerns, has very few options. The military response would be to answer with a higher volume of fire but LEO don’t have that luxury.

So, what is the answer for the LEO? Shot placement with effective penetration.

It’s a tough job and I tip my hat to the brave men who protect and serve.


PS: this is why I detest M&S and anyone else who promotes one shot stops, energy transfer et all other hooky pseudo science over penetration.

 

[Joejojoba111]

MK11 - about Babyface, I'm not sure that's 100% correct. I agree it's a very relevant scenario, but never discussed, though!

Lester Gillis, aka Baby Face Nelson, John Paul Chase, and Chase's wife were in the car chased by FBI agents Cowley and Hollis. Both cars were firing at each other, so it's possible people were hit before BabyFace pullled over for Chase's wife to hide in a field.

This was a HEAVILY armed encounter. The FBI agents were well armed, Cowley had a Thompson and Hollis had a shotgun. Not a bad tag-team. The robbers were also well armed, but not as suitably - Baby Face also had a Thompson, but Chase had a BAR, that's right a full size Browning Automatic Rifle!

In a book by Robin May it doesn't describe where everyone ran to very well, but has account of the last half. Consruction workers ducked down and witnessed waves of fire going both ways for a while. Then, just as in the lumber yard 50 years later, Nelson had enough, got up and started advaning, firing as he came. He reached Cowley who was firing from a ditch, and killed him. Then he went for Hollis, and Hollis tossed his empty shotgun and pulled out a pistol. As he ran for cover he emptied the pistol at BabyFace, and BabyFace shot back killing him. BabyFace then walked, swaying a little, over to the G-mens car and asked Chase to drive, saying "I'm hit." Turns out he was shot by 17 bullets.

 

[David N]

No XTPs?

Does anyone know why the Hornady XTP is not included in the list posted by alduro, from data obtained from ammo labs? Was it found lacking somehow, or just not tested?

The account of the Miami shootout at the gunzone implies that the XTP was developed after this shootout specifically to penetrate first, then expand.

If anyone can answer this or has any other facts/opinions on the XTP I will appreciate hearing from you.

 

[orangeninja]

I too would like to know.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

I remember from the old AmmoLab.com (before it was a pay site) that the XTP had expansion problems when fired through denim. Problems as in, like, didn't expand at all.

 

[surr]

There were 8 Feds with pistols, not 5, 1 Fed had a

shotgun, but it was a pump and he was already wounded, so he accomplished nothing much with it. The Mini-14 user had already lost the use of one arm, and he still kicked their butts pretty hard. Why does nobody mention the 50+ rds that the Feds never TOUCHED Platt with?