Let's try this again: employing a NAA .22 Mag Mini Revolver for Self-Defense.

[B yond]

My previous thread on this topic degraded quickly and was closed. I'd like to keep this one on-topic.

How can one best employ a NAA Mini Revolver chambered in .22 Magnum for self defense?

Please assume:
-The person carrying said weapon is capable of drawing and hitting a 10-inch target in approximately 1.5 to 2 seconds at a distance of 15 yards.
-The weapon is fitted with factory bird's head grips.
-There may be a folding pocket knife available as a backup weapon, but there is no other firearm available.
-a round fired from this weapon can penetrate 10-12" into gelatin depending upon the round used. Penetration in a human would most likely be less, especially if bone were struck.
-The weapon must be drawn from concealment to be used.

Obviously this leaves a lot wide open:
-The target may or may not be aware of or attacking the person with the weapon.
-The target may or may not be armed with a pistol/knife/bat/chain/bomb/evil bunny.
-There may or may not be innocent bystanders.
-The distance between the person with the NAA and the target may be up to 15 yards.
-The NAA may be loaded with any commercially available .22 magnum ammunition.

What tactics can be used to maximize the effectiveness of the NAA and how should those tactics change to accommodate situational variables?

There were a few very good/interesting responses in the previous attempt at this thread, one of which was that a shot to the liver would cause the target a great deal of pain and most likely lead to a quick loss of consciousness due to a sudden drop on blood pressure. The liver being a large soft target, this seems like a great point of aim for engagement with this weapon from beyond spitting distance.

I'm trying to spark a serious conversation about how to maximize the effectiveness of this weapon. Please keep it on-topic.

 

[Avenger29]

Stick it in their eyesocket and pull the trigger has always been my view of the NAA mini revolvers.

There is or was a guy from South Africa on here who reported successfully engaging threats with the NAA .22mag revolver, I think. I read the thread a while back.

I wouldn't try to target specific organs with a normal handgun much less one of the NAA revolvers, btw.

 

[Titan6]

This is somewhere in there.

Advocating techniques or mindsets in S&T which ignore reality will likely be met with challenges from the general membership.

 

[OurSafeHome.net]

Was it Goldfinger who told 007 "I aim for the left eye and I never miss"?

 

[Fred Fuller]

For a few years, most everyone I knew who carried a gun carried a NAA mini sometimes- or all the time. This was before the advent of widely available 'mouse guns' of more robust chamberings. I carried a couple of them (a .22 LR and a .22 Mag) at different times, I still have them both but neither is carried any more.

It's been my experience that people just don't see the little guns, even when they are drawn and fired in plain view- they're just so tiny. On two occasions when in the company of others, I have used a NAA on varmints of a scaly/toothy nature which presented threats, and both times the reaction was, "I thought you shot it with your finger." Thus it's my impression that presentation of this particular gun is not apt to be a deterrent, and even firing it without effect will not either.

You're pretty much going to have to hit something for the NAA to be of any use at all in self defense, and IMHO the best POA (point of aim) for any .22 rimfire in a defensive role is the triangle formed by the corners of the eyes and the nose. I wouldn't use hollow points, as penetration is your only hardware-controlled asset with a .22 (placement is your primary software controlled asset).

I usually stuck my support hand thumb straight up from a closed fist and slid it up behind the grip of the little revolver in my shooting hand, if time/circumstances permitted. That gives a lot more to hold onto without increasing the size of the grips on the gun and decreasing its concealability, and it helps control the gun better for followup shots as well IMHO.

I know a couple of folks who did use the little guns in self defense 'back when.' Neither instance was lethal for the assailant, but in both cases the threat was ended promptly- fortunately for the defenders. The NAAs are a pretty slender reed upon which to lean for last ditch defensive use- but far better than nothing.

hth,

lpl

 

[B yond]

That laser looks promising. According to laserlyte they'll be shipping in Sept. for $99.

Here's the link to the thread Avenger29 mentioned where another THR member took on several assailants with one of these little revolvers and survived (despite being shot twice and having it blow up in his hand). Amazing story.

 

[Sam1911]

Two thoughts that are as serious as I can get about the question:

1) This is a surprise gun. A "DEEP concealment" item. This is not a primary carry gun. This is the type of thing someone might carry in a boot or some unexpected place on the 1,000,000:1 chance they got disarmed of their primary weapon (maybe secondary back-up, too) and the attacker let their guard down somehow so the victim could retrieve the NAA. Then apply it quickly and decisively to the temple, eye, neck, or whatever extremely vulnerable spot that presents itself. A .22LR or .22 Mag to the temple will work. Good luck making that delivery, though. It's a LONG shot, but might work.

2) There is no point in believing that you can target an organ. Statistics indicate that you'll be lucky to even hit center mass when your adrenaline is pumping. Your only hope is to try and empty that little thing into the attacker. It will NOT be easy to manipulate that hammer, but five rounds in the attacker increases your odds of success to at least 5%. (Now, THAT's some SCIENCE, for you!) Maybe, one of those bullets will find something important. You're playing the lottery -- chances of winning are quite low, but playing 5 times does push the odds in your favor at least a bit.

And, a third, which may be too far outside the original question, but I'm very serious.

3) Use the revolver as a kubotan or fist-load. With the muzzle and butt protruding from the top and bottom of your closed fist, you may be able to inflict some extra pain and even damage by employing the gun as a blunt-trauma weapon. Depending on distance and the difficulty of cocking that tiny hammer, and the difficulty in making a well-placed shot, I might not even try to empty the gun first.

Your mind is the real weapon, you know. So even if all you've got is an NAA mini-revolver, you can still be armed!

-Sam

 

[SharpDog]

OK, I'm sorry for my attempt at humor in your earlier thread. Let me start out by saying that I have at least 4 NAA pistols like you are describing .22 mag NAA Black widow, .22 lr and .22 mag versions like the one pictured and a .22lr one with a folding 'clip-on' stock much like a folding knife. I also would like to add that I have the NAA .32 ACP stainless and Keltec .32 and P3at versions as well as their .40 S&W pistol that is not made any more.

Let me also say that I am a gunshot survivor from a 9mm attack and that I was not incapacitated in any way and responded / could respond for a full 10 mins after that. This was not a 'flesh wound' and took 2 weeks in hospital and $25K in med bills (figures approx) to get me straightened out.

When I was shot with the .9mm (silvertip) it failed to hit a vital organ or artery. I think this would be very likely in the case of a .22 lr, no matter how good a shot you are (you and your assailant will both be moving, I assume).

so, in my opinion, that's right, opinion. the difference between a $200 pistol and a $500 pistol pales in comparison to effective means of self-defense. Now, I don't want to get into your budgeting business, I'm just saying that, for me, I can find an extra few hundred to spend on adequate self-defense.

With that said, this, in my mind (my opinion), become a matter of not 'what is the best way to ...' but really a matter of 'Is there any way to be confident in the fact that I choose to carry a NNA .22 lr piece instread of another backup pistol'.

Now, my kel-tec .32 acp's have a 10+1 magazine and are no heavier or less concealable than the 5-shot NAA pistol in question. Cost is maybe $100 more (if that).

If it were my hide, and my choice, I would pick an NAA 9mm carry pistol as my deep cover, If I could not conceal that I would pick a p3At or Ruger LCP and failing to conceal those, I would pick the Kel-tec P32

I fully realize that y'all will rant that .... "hey, he's saying that we should pick another pistol and isn't answering my question" ... well, I am answering it, I would not carry your pistol if it were one of my three choices and I would work extra hard to afford one I could have faith in

so, my answer to what is the best way to deploy ... is that I would leave it home until I could afford a better pistol.

I am trained in martial arts and knife fighting and I would have more faith in these skills (even at my advanced age) than in that pistol you are contemplating.

 

[SharpDog]

PS. If you look hard enough you can find good martial arts and knife fighting instruction manuals (not ideal, but adequate) and then it is only a matter of your time and willpower for practicing (of course instruction is much better).

Before you diismiss this answer, search around on the internet for the damage a knife can case at 15 feet versus what that .22 lr will cause at the same distance. Also search for what will be quicker to deploy at ranges <= 15 feet, a knife or a pistol (concealed knife vs. concealed pistol, etc).

I don't know what state you live in but many states allow 3 1/2 " fixed or folding blade knives. I carry a folding blade knife clipped inside my shirt under where a tie would be so that only the clip is showing. If you position this at the correct angle and get the proper opening geometry, this can be very quick to deploy (and can be totally concealed by a tie).

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Center mass at close range with as many of the shots as I can get off would be my plan.

In theory of course. OP: I didn't read the other thread, so did you happen to touch on why the NAA .22 is the only weapon you can carry?

It if it were me, and I planned on carrying a firearm, I would go through my house and find enough old junk to sell to make up the difference to buy a gun in a real caliber. Even a P3AT would be leaps and bounds of a .22. Like Sharpdog said, if I were serious about carrying a firearm; I would make it so I could acquire a real caliber firearm by any means necessary.

 

[EOD3]

Shoot them in the foot then run like hell.

 

[B yond]

OP: I didn't read the other thread, so did you happen to touch on why the NAA .22 is the only weapon you can carry?

Bickering over that is a big part of why that thread was closed.

It's a combination of factors, some of which I cannot discuss.

I don't want to be limited to such a small caliber, but when I am limited to it I want to be able to make the most of it.

 

[batjka]

I see this thread is heading the way of the first one with the same topic...

Here's my take on the subject. A lot of people here are advocating bigger calibers. Which is nice. But they are forgetting one thing though - convenience. If we lived in the war zone, everyone would carry the biggest caliber possible, no matter the weight and bulk. But in our society where chances of getting into a firefight are pretty slim, I believe carrying a mini revolver makes sense. Small, featherweight and able to get one out of the bind should the need arise. So let's stop knocking the gun and concentrate on the tactics.

My opinion - just keep shooting. You have 5 rounds - make them count. You can shoot your mini well, so have confidence in yourself and you'll be fine. Hope you never have to employ it, though.

 

[B yond]

Thanks batjka.

If this thread can stay on course, I'm hoping to feed off the collective knowledge of THR. The suggestion from the last thread about the liver really caught my attention, as I'd never even considered the abdomen as a desirable target. I'm wondering if there are more "soft-spots" that I'm unaware of where a .22mag could be used as effectively as possible given the limitations of the weapon and caliber.

So far this thread is going much better. Thanks everyone.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Profile

Something else to consider: your target may not be face-on; you may have to deal with a profile shot.

I'm not sure how this dynamic changes the exposure of vulnerable areas.

I would assume that an ear would make a good "aim small, miss small" target, and a hit anywhere near it would ruin a guy's day.

I'm thinking there might be a vulnerable/sensitive spot at the top of the hip/pelvic area in profile.

I have no expertise here, I'm just going by what hurts me personally, and things have knocked me down in the past.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I had a laser on my NAA Mini before I put on the Aimpoint Micro red dot scope.http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=387345&highlight=naa+mini+aimpoint

The laser was not as compact as the one shown above, but it worked fine. The problem was that it was very disconcerting to see how much the laser dot moved around on a target during cocking or even during the trigger squeeze. The guns are just so small that getting a proper firm grip to keep the dot steady on a stop at at 7 yards is really tough.

With the Aimpoint red dot, braced against a tree, and slow firing, I was able to hit a human-sized torso silhouette at 50 yards 60% of the time (3 out of 5 shots) which I thought was pretty great. Still the failure to hit more often seemed to be an issue of ergonomics, not inaccuracy. Adding the red dot helped to overcome the poor sights and short sight radius issue, but not the small grip size or horrible trigger.

People talk about hitting paper plates consistently at 7-10 yards. The gun is capable of much better accuracy than that, but the poor ergonomics make it difficult to get much better accuracy from the gun short of taking some extreme measures.

Of course, they have some NAA minis with larger grips that are easier to shoot. Of course once you go to the larger grip, it starts becoming a fairly large gun that is underpowered for its size.

 

[Carl Levitian]

Using a small light caliber weapon, follow the advice of a trainer to the boxer; go for the gut.

In the three shootings involving .22's that I responded to as a police officer, all three that were shot in the abdominal cavity were down and out. One was laying on the sidewalk were he dropped after being shot by the person he was chasing with a pool cue he was attempting to assault. The fleeing person used a cheap RG .22 revolver with a 2 inch barrel and the gun was loaded with old .22 long ammo. Yes, I said .22 long. The shot attacker was hit by one of six shots fired, dropped to the sidewalk and curled up in a fetal position. My partner and I arrived right after, and the shooting victim was uncommunicative, and semi conscious. He lived, but it took 5 hours of emergency surgery by a top doctor to pull him through.

The other gut shot person I actually witnessed as a kid, was a large man in a picnic area accosting a man with a family, telling the family man to give him some beer money. The bum, being told to leave, pulled a large sheath knife on the family man, and demanded money. The family man pulled a .22 Colt Woodsman and told the man with the knife to leave. The knifeman advanced on the family guy yelling he was chicken ---- and didn't have the guts to pull the trigger, and was shot once by the .22. It didn't seem to do much aside from make the knife wielding bum hunch up a bit and stop for a minute. Then he took another step toward the man with the family, and got shot twice more in the gut. This had an immediate effect of doubling him over, gong to his knees and screaming that his guts were on fire. He fell over on his side, drew his knees up to his chest, and over the course of a minute grew steadily quieter. He was unconscious in about a minute, and when the ambulance got there, he was dead. It took three shot to stop him, but what ever the last two shots hit, the effect was immediate and deadly.

A third instance was a high school kid who shot himself by accident. He was returning home in late afternoon from rabbit hunting after school. He had his .22 rifle in the pickup, and on getting out in the driveway of the house, he reached back in for his rifle, grabbing it by the barrel and pulling it out to him. Somehow the trigger got brushed on something, and it went off, hitting him in the stomach. He reported at first it felt like being lightly sucker punched in the gut, then a few seconds later the fire started. He doubled over and fell there in the driveway and couldn't move, and said it felt like a white hot iron was being twisted around in his guts. The neighbor lady across the street was doing some gardening on her flower beds in front of the house, and looked up at the sound of the shot and saw the kid fall. She called 911 immediately. The kid was a big kid, high school letterman, football hero, and a bit over 6 feet in the 215 to 220 pound range. Big muscular kid. When I interviewed him at the hospital, he told me he couldn't move or speak aftr getting hit by the round. A .22 Remington high speed hollow point.

In three out of three cases I am familiar with on a first hand basis, a .22 bullet or bullets in the abdominal cavity seemed to have a pretty bad effect on the person. A .22 is a very light bullet, trying to drive it through breast bone and rib cartilage seems a bit much to ask of it. The sternum is a pretty tough piece of work, as it protects the heart. But the liver, spleen, stomach, kidneys, are all pretty much open with protection. Even a blunt screwdriver can be driven into the guts with very disastrous effects. If I had to defend myself with a small .22 handgun, that's where I'm shooting for. Same thing for the head; too strong skull and facial bones that are too tough to get through. Even .45's have been know to glance off a skull. You can break your fingers and knuckles trying to knock someone out, but a good punch to the guts is effective. There was a mailman who got shot in the face with a .38 in the eye soccet, and it deflected the bullet and he lived with a nasty wound. The skull and face bones are tough to protect the brain, they are made to soak up punishment.

There was a while back right here on these forums, the case of a man in South Africa, who defended himself with a NAA .22. He came out of it, in spite of his gun somehow blowing up from some cause. He had the news clipping to prove he wasn't BS'sing. Then there was the old man in Texas. He was sitting in his home and two young punks forced their way into his house to rob him. He had a .22 NAA in his pocket, and sent both punks to the hospital, then jail. It worked for him.

Getting shot by anything is not good. Depending on what gets hit inside, it can be very very bad. Even if the bullet doesn't come from a umpteen shot wonder auto of the month, or fire belching magnum revolver. A NAA .22 shooting into the gut area can be a very effective defence.

 

[bigfatdave]

Thanks for sharing the personal experience, Carl Levitian. I think you have a good point there, unless at contact ranges it may be best to aim for the softest large area presented.
It gives a good chance of actually hitting and a reasonable chance for a stop. I still think that getting a shot off rapidly would be a good idea, those NAAs are so small that the only way to announce believably that you are armed might be to fire. (I'm picturing pulling it and demanding a stop/surrender as an assailant approaches and having them call what they think is a bluff)

For the posters who continue to criticize the choice of weapon, and refuse to read the full previous thread and discover that the OP has more suitable CC pistols in his possession, take a moment to think about when the NAA might really be the only firearm you could carry when concealment is more important than ever. He HAS a .45 and a .380 ... and he isn't a total moron, so perhaps he really can't CC with effective concealment without going tiny. He's in CA, so purchas of tiny .32 pistols isn't an option, and who wants an antique pistol in a sub-caliber?
Take a moment to think before posting "not enough gun" comments, please - we're talking about how to best use a gun you can CC once in a while when nothing else will do, not daily carry of a NAA mini as primary defense.

 

[doc2rn]

I would go for maximizing potency and a liver hit which contains a large quantity of blood will do almost as much as bouncing around.
1) CNS=Central Nervous System Brain and spinal cord
2) Heart
3)Liver
4) Pancreas
as you can see the center mass arguement has a lot going for it, with aspects of all 4 located there-in. I recommend the analogy I once heard take your time smooth is fast and far more accurate.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

So just how are you going to aim at the pancreas? What are the external landmark aimpoints for the pancreas?

 

[GEM]

Obviously, most of us Kryptonians have X-ray vision.

All these surgical shots are quite silly. You will be well served if you point the gun at the center of the opponent and just keep shooting him. It isn't a fast gun and folks will be running around.

There are folks who have used these guns successfully. They didn't wait for the perfect liver or pancreas shot.

It's like any other gun - aim at the COM or center of what you see and keep shooting it.

Go shoot a speed IDPA or IPSC like stage with one and then see if you can pick out the Pancreas.

 

[Sam1911]

Go shoot a speed IDPA or IPSC like stage with one and then see if you can pick out the Pancreas.

I think this is the big point. Not that you're going to try and be competative in an action pistol event with this gun, but that you have to consider such an event as a "perfect world" rendition of a violent encounter.

(NO, IDPA isn't tactical training. It's more like tactical training-wheels! If you can't run the gun in the game setting, your chances of running it successfully in a fight are pretty slim.)

The scenario is known, the "assailant" is standing still (usually), you have your gear set up "just so," and you know when the "beep" is coming. Can you draw and fire that gun for a COM hit in anything like the amount of time you might reasonably have to do so in the real world?

Just as important with a .22, can you draw, fire, and manipulate the gun repeatedly so as to get more of those precious tiny hits on target?

Really, the answer is yes, it can be done. If you practice the techniques until you do them smoothly, you should be able to make it more than useless. You won't be able to enter IDPA-type competitions with that gun, of course, but you should consider using the targets, scenarios (well, simple ones that you could reasonably hope to engage with such a weapon), and a timer in your practice to give you an idea of your capabilities with the gun and to help measure your progress.

Please be careful, though. Trying to run that small of a gun --fast-- could easily lead to fumbling and even dropping the thing! Just try to get the procedures down pat before you attempt much in the way of speed. Endangering yourself and others is not cool.

Good luck!

-Sam

 

[Carl Levitian]

For those with little understanding of simple concepts; for those "surgical shots" as you call them, you aim low for a the spot about 3 to 5 inches over the belt buckle. Stay under the sternum. Simple as that. If you train that way, you'll shoot that way when the time comes.

 

[CoRoMo]

I would also suggest using up all the hollow points and only carry solids in that gun. However, the things you left wide open make S&T a mixed bag to choose from. Ideally, this little gun would be used at point blank range to stop a threat, or from a distance to provide cover fire for your retreat.

It is not what you want to use to exchange fire with in a shootout. But as we've read from Avenger29's shooting, you'd use what you carried. His example proves how this little booger is definitely better than nothing as it absolutely saved his life. If you can point-shoot the minirevolver as accurately as you post, then you're about as prepared as you'd need to be. Where to aim is the question then. I say, wherever you please.

 

[David E]

Many applicable answers were given in the last thread, so I don't know what revelations will happen in this thread...

To repeat one more time, get a larger grip, learn slip-shooting, go for the face/neck and PRACTICE.