Level a city and the muslim extremists take the hint, or, the case for nuking them

[R.H. Lee]

Collectivism is the real enemy. And socialism and Islam appear to find common ground there, which may explain some of the strange bedfellow arrangements we've been seeing

Interesting point. Upon close examination it becomes apparent that collectivism/socialism is (are) inseparable from fascism; the tie IS religion (or the destruction thereof).

Here are some Nazis on that subject:

"Christianity, sprung from Jewish roots and comprehensible only as a growth on this soil, represents the counter-movement to any morality of breeding, of race, of privilege. It is the anti-Aryan religion par excellence"
-Nietzsche


"Verily a man cannot serve two masters. And I consider the foundation or destruction of a religion far greater than the foundation or destruction of a state" -Adolf Hitler, 'Mein Kampf' (1927)

The socialists want to destroy religion, the islamos want to establish religion. They may be pals now, but sooner or later they're gonna clash.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Marko, now you're making stuff up. I NEVER advocated the "wholesale slaughter of innocent non combatants".

Either you have me confused with someone else, or you're attributing the title of this thread to me.

 

[Chris Rhines]

Gary -

OK Chris, you don't have any solutions.

Just as I said. I have quite enough trouble handling my own life without involving myself in others.

and for your information, the first large scale polling by Zogby International ( Zogby is rather left leaning ) in Iraq indicates that Iraqis want Democracy and view it as a path to greater freedom.

Wonderful news if it's true - I tend to be suspicious of the polling methods that Zogby uses. In fact, I'm suspicious of polls in general. Even if true, this does not give the United States the moral right to impose democracy at gunpoint.

If the Iraqi people are so enamored of western democratic capitalism, there really isn't any need for occupation troops anymore, neh?

I think I understand your tag line, "Behind Enemy Lines."

Okay. Feel free to share your interpretation...

Glockler -

The purpose of us being in Irqq is not the benefit of the Iraqis but for our benefit.

Who benefits, exactly? You and I? Or the government?

The financial benefits as well as the security benefits would probably not be able to be calculated. You might think of it as a money pit right now as your seeing no ROI but it might be a fantastic investment a few decades in the future.

As nice as I would find a western-style capitalist economy in Iraq, I don't have the right to kill people to bring it about. So I'm not going to advocate that other people do so in my stead. It's a simple application of the NAP.

The survival of capitalism is dependant on wiping this scourge of radical Islam from the earth's face. Now that Saddam is gone, whether you agree or disagree with going in and destroying his regime, a power vacuum has occured and we muct fill it with a regime that is favorable to our interests.

Iraq was one of the most secular states in the Middle East. They weren't a particularly dangerous source of radical Islam.

- Chris

 

[MeekandMild]

I've always thought that we only had two, and didn't really know what we were going to do if they didn't surrender after the second one. I've never heard the Emperor's palace thing. Do you have any reliable links about this?

No, I saw it on The History Channel, as a fifteen second mention during the course of a two hour docudrama about the last conventional raid on the last oil refinery in Japan.

This jives with a similar rumor I had heard from time to time talking to retired officers back when I was a member of the Air Force community out in San Antonio. As mentioned, we had been careful to preserve the emperor from bombing throughout the war, but here you're talking about bombing Tokyo versus 2 million Jap dead and a million GIs killed or wounded.

Yes, I realize it goes against all that we were told, however there was a lot of stuff which was declassified at the fifty year mark. I saw another show a couple of years ago about Japan's heavy water experiments. They apparantly were working on that particular project at some dams in Manchuria. Interesting that the Russians "helped" us by fighting them in Manchuria very late in the war.

I will try to find you a link. Of course I could be wrong, like I was on the dates Roman infantrymen were given short swords, and like I have been on many other things through the years, but I don't think so.

In any regard, I don't think that killing unrelated people will snuff out extremist cells. Only thing which will do that is kill off their command and control. (Mrs. Meek disagrees. She believes we should kill them all. Ivan the Terrible of Russia used to do that. He would kill his enemies, then kill their families and friends so there was no one left to pray for them nor remember them.)

 

[hapafish]

fix, thank you. A voice of reason sums it all up.

MeekandMild, could you not use the word "Jap" again? Thanks much.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Iraq was one of the most secular states in the Middle East. They weren't a particularly dangerous source of radical Islam. Chris Rhines

Saddam was paying Palestinian terrorists to commit their crimes in Israel. He was definitely a supporter and funding source for terror. I've never understood the need or logic to nicely segregate one radical Islamist from another.

Regards from TX

 

[Stand_Watie]

Jap

Why is it offensive? It's just a short for "Japanese"?

It's been used with an angry, negative sneer for fifty years. I think that's long enough for us to consider it a racial slur.

"******" came about in the same way, and it's just about the ugliest word in the english (american) language.

I would hope that all members of the high road would try to make all other members welcome, even if that were to mean not calling British people "Brits", Pakistanis "paki's" or Polish people "pollacks". I would even support not calling Americans "yanks" if I found a substantial number of Americans who were actually offended by it.

 

[jimpeel]

I have no problem with the word "Jap".

"Nip" is similar in its being a slang term for Nipponese.

Personally, I'm a Limey; and I see nothing wrong with that, either.

Of course, I am from the old school of "sticks and stones"; and I am cogent enough to know that there is no right not to be offended in the Bill of Rights.

In America, we should be able to stand nose to nose and have the most vile shouting match including the grossest of racial epithets without government intervention. It is at the point that our noses touch that the government has sway over what happens.

I've been called a Yak, Yakus, Blue-Eyed-Devil, Honkey, etc. both in jest and in anger and I just don't allow it to rub me the wrong way.

I can't be bothered by the rantings of Elijah Muhammed who posited that Whites lived in caves protected by dogs and walked on all fours. Yakus came along and took pity on us, strapped branches in the shape of a cross to our backs to force us to walk upright like men. That is why we worship the Cross. We also worship "God" because "God" spelled backward is "Dog" and honors the dogs that protected us when we lived in caves.

Always gives me a good laugh every time I hear "Yak" or "Yakus" as most of those calling us those names don't know that some of us know what they mean.

 

[hapafish]

In America, we should be able to stand nose to nose and have the most vile shouting match including the grossest of racial epithets without government intervention. It is at the point that our noses touch that the government has sway over what happens.

Unfortunately, members of the government are elected from the populace, and retarded public opinion carried into the realm of policy by public officials results in such wonderful things as the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Japanese-American concentration camp internment, and other joyous events which give ammunition to those overseas who love to depict America as something less than what it advertises, and thereby worthy of terrorist attacks. I remember last week I saw this turn-of-the-century political ad that read "Keep California White" that was primarily directed at Japanese and Chinese. The rest of the exhibit warmed my heart too.

My reaction to being called a "Jap" or "Nip" is often to immediately strike the offender with intent to hospitalize. I do this because the wonderful experience of being targeted in society on the basis of race and race alone is more than enough proof that these "harmless epithets" carry with them the promise of something far worse. I had a guy in boot call me a "Jap fa**ot piece of s**t" to my face. I clocked him with my M16A2, sent him to the hospital, and got taken away by the MPs. The MPs were laughing the whole way, took the cuffs off at the station, and kept on offering to buy me dinner. Strange. Oh and the outcome? That guy became my battle buddy. He was very nice to me after that.

Needless to say, if I had tried to indulge in the luxury of letting him call me Jap, Nip, Chink, or Gook, who knows what other types would have come out of the woodwork? None of these terms, by the way, has ever been a term of affection, or neutral in usage, ever.

jimpeel, I hardly think you have any Asian ancestry, so I hardly think this issue of whether the word "Jap" is offensive impacts your consciousness in the least. I really don't like the current PC state of affairs in American society, but since you are a strong believer in the freedom to use racial slurs, I can direct you to some neighborhoods in the Los Angeles area should you wish to test your convictions.

Peace out.

 

[Stand_Watie]

In America, we should be able to stand nose to nose and have the most vile shouting match including the grossest of racial epithets without government intervention. It is at the point that our noses touch that the government has sway over what happens

Indeed, we most certainly should. Government intervention has no place in speech.

Better yet would be if we would choose to make our points without the grossest of epithets. That would be taking the High Road.

 

[artherd]

Bruce H- thanks for providing some beauty in the midst of all this hate.

You should post that seperately (though I predict it will get 3 or 4 replies

 

[The_Antibubba]

Bush's timetable

I think that The desire to make Iraq an Arab Democracy is a good and noble one. It will also fail. How long did we occupy Japan and Germany after WW2? Technically, we still are! Yes, now they are allies, but really, we never left.

But we are leaving Iraq! Oh, yes, we will see that the democratic Iraqis are in power, hand over the keys, and have the troops home in time to go to the polls. Never mind that the "new Arab Democracy" crumbles. Never mind that the Shiites hold a Revolution, or the Sunnis slaughter the Shiites. Ignore the Kurds when they set up their own State, and Turkey faces it's own revolt from within. Forget the WMDs in the sand and in Syria.

The Iraqis know we're leaving. They might not understand the reasons for it, but they know we won't be finishing what we started, and they consider that a victory.

If we're going to fight, we need to stay until it's over-or we need to stop going in in the first place. It helps you understand why most Israelis and Palestinians are suspicious of the US-led "Road Map" to peace.

 

[jimpeel]

hapafish

jimpeel, I hardly think you have any Asian ancestry, so I hardly think this issue of whether the word "Jap" is offensive impacts your consciousness in the least. I really don't like the current PC state of affairs in American society, but since you are a strong believer in the freedom to use racial slurs, I can direct you to some neighborhoods in the Los Angeles area should you wish to test your convictions.

I have lived in Diamond Temple, Boyle Heights, Watts, and Mariana Maravilla. I had friends from White Fence and Dogtown. Watts and Willow Brook. Toonerville and VNE. The one guy who was of Asian exrtraction who hung out with the guys from Diamond was nicknamed "Tighteyes".

I have lived all over the L.A. Basin and San Fernando Valley. I always hung around with the Mexicans and Blacks. When I got married and had kids, my wife and I always lived in mixed areas so our kids could learn to live with everyone.

I am a race mixer so I get an equal amount of animus from the likes of Tom Metzger and Louis Farrakahn. In fact, I am the only thing they agree on -- they both hate my guts.

My wife is Mexican and Yakima Indian. My son had a child with a Black / White woman so I have a Black / White / Mexican / Indian Grandson.

I have done more for racial integration with my penis that the likes of Jesse Jackson could do with an endless supply of school buses.

Since you don't know me I take no offense at your challenge; but for what its worth, been there, done that.

 

[hapafish]

jimpeel,

Good for you then on the "been there and done that." Am wondering with raised eyebrow if you've tried the "Jap/Nip/Gook/Chink" thing with some Koreans, or better yet, Vietnamese. You've already said you've associated primarily with Mexicans and Blacks, and if you say you've got heaps and scads of Asian acquaintances and you refer to them tenderly with such lovely words, then why should I believe otherwise? You're still alive, after all.

I didn't issue a "challenge." That in my lexicon is something far more confrontational in nature. But since you don't know me either to read into what I was saying, try this one ... how about going to every business in Little Tokyo and asking the people "Is it ok if I call you Japs?" How about going to Koreatown and asking a bunch of Koreans "Is it ok if I call you Japs?" I'm sure that these reasonable people will all see the light and have absolutely no problem with you and your choice of language.

After all, you're not of Asian extraction, so why should "Jap" be an issue to you? I completely understand.

In the meantime, you can mull over the suggestions. Oh and the rest of us can all embrace our new freedom from PC speech and refer to each other with great affection as Japs, Chinks, Gooks, Wops, Dagos, Kikes, Micks, Spics, *******, Ragheads, and everything else that morons over the centuries have come up with, since it is "unreasonable" for us to see any of this as a "problem."

Enough.

 

[hapafish]

On a further note, every time we go ahead and talk about "ragheads, towelheads, camel jockeys" and other words to dehumanize an entire culture, we make it so much easier to do the wrong thing and push for the slaughter of Muslim women who deserve better, Muslim children who deserve better, Muslim poor who deserve better, Muslim academics who deserve better. We wouldn't have Western culture if Islamic scholars hadn't saved what they could of the writings of the Greeks in the wake of the fall of the Roman Empire (yes I am perfectly aware of debacles like the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria for bath-house fuel) ... pushing for "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" is so much easier when you're saying it from a great distance, and somebody else has to do the dirty work.

The Mongols were impartial when it came to religion, and impartial when it came to race and national origin in levying taxes, promoting commanders in their armies, choosing advisors to the Khans. If only America could be so fair ... and as successful in battle and establishing peace, without having to resort to extermination. However since stupidity in all its forms seems to be an acceptable condition for living in America today, maybe the President should sue for peace with the rest of the world while we still have a chance. Better to let the enemy suspect our society is filled with idiots, rather than botch everything and remove all doubt.

Peace out.

 

[jimpeel]

hapafish

I didn't say I use those words. I said I had no problem with them. I personally don't use epithets to describe people by their race.

I worked at a company in Denver, CO as a temp. It was a short gig, about a month or so. I was designing the tool and parts boxes used in the teardown of 777 engines.

On my second day there, my boss (B) and his boss (J) and myself had to go out to DIA to the United Terminal hanger to get a measurement of a piece of tubing for the fuel system. On the way out, everything went just fine. I got the measurements and we started back.

This is at the time when O.J. was on trial and the radio had something about the trial. J says "Why don't they just hang that n----- and get it over with?" When we got back to the facility, which is federally secured, the guard at the gate, a Black man, was just walking back to the guardhouse from the main building. J says "Come on Satchmo, open the f---ing gate!"

When we got back in the building I got J aside and told him "I'm not into that kind of talk and I would appreciate if you didn't use it around me. I don't care if you do; but if you do it around me it will show a lack of respect for me." He says, "Yeah, I guess I should be more careful."

Nuf said; or so I thought.

Later in the week, Thursday, I had to go to another company in the Denver area where I had worked before and sign off my interest in the patent that had been filed for the product I designed. I took a late lunch break and B knew that I was going there to do this. I took about 45 minutes of my one-hour break before I got back. When I got back, the guy who hired me, a Black guy named JM called my office. He said "Jim. What's up?"

Now this was not your usual "what's up" but a "What in the Hell is going on?" what's up.

I said "Nothing".

He says "I've been told that you've been terminated."

I said "Not that I know of."

He says, "Come up and see me."

So I go up and he knows nothing about what's going on. I told him that I was still working away on the project. He told me to go back to my office and he will find out what is going on by calling my shop.

I go back to work but a few minutes later he calls me back upstairs. He says that my shop said that J had called and said that I was terminated for abandoning the jobsite. I said "I'm here so how can I have abandoned the jobsite?"

So he calls my shop and my contract agent, D, tells me that he has called my home and my wife doesn't know where I am either. He says that J called and said "Jim Peel has abandoned the jobsite and he's terminated" <click>

D tells me to get the Hell out of there, don't say s--- to anyone, just go home and call him when I get home.

So me and JM are talking a bit as I leave and I tell him what happened earlier in the week. He says "J and B were in the next office from me talking that s--- one day and they knew I was right there." I said "Why didn't you say 'Hey, you Honkeys, hold it down in there'?" He said he didn't want to start anything.

So I must have scared the s--- out of J as this was a federally secured facility and he was either afraid I would lodge a complaint or he just didn't want any "n----- lovers" working for him.

So, no, I don't use those terms and I have no problem asking people who do not to do so in my presence. If they continue to do so it merely shows a lack of respect for me but I never bring it up twice. Once should be enough.

As I said prior, I have been called racial epithets and I just let them roll off. I simply remove myself from that influence. You see, I don't want to associate with ignorant people.

But when it comes to their right to say these things, I have no complaint because it IS their right to say those things. Now if you want to fly off the handle and bash some guy with a deadly weapon because you have no self control, that is your business and you will have to pay whatever consequence. Me, I just walk away.

Hope I have made this glaringly clear.

Fast becoming your least favorite Blue-eyed, Round-eyed Devil ...

J

PS. I did notice in your diatribe

In the meantime, you can mull over the suggestions. Oh and the rest of us can all embrace our new freedom from PC speech and refer to each other with great affection as Japs, Chinks, Gooks, Wops, Dagos, Kikes, Micks, Spics, *******, Ragheads, and everything else that morons over the centuries have come up with, since it is "unreasonable" for us to see any of this as a "problem."

that you completely left out Honkey, Cracker, Yakus, Blue-eyed Devil, Round Eye, Gavacho, Gringo, or Haole. I guess that Whites are the only prejudice people, huh?

 

[hapafish]

jimpeel

I left out Gavacho and Yaku because I've never heard of them. Cracker and Honkey skipped my mind; I don't talk in the language of the South. Blue-eyed Devil is not a slur that makes sense in English, and doesn't exist in Japanese or in other Asian languages I am familiar with. Oh and haole is not widely considered a racist slur, by either Hawaiians or academics familiar with the language. You don't think Italians are Caucausian? Read the list again.

When you say that you don't see any problem with a racial slur and you then say that we should all have the "freedom" to use them against each other, I read between the lines and find your words suspect. You've given me a nice story on which I assume is there to convince me you are one hell of a good guy, but let me see here ...

I have no problem with the word "Jap" (...) In America, we should be able to stand nose to nose and have the most vile shouting match including the grossest of racial epithets without government intervention.

So, no, I don't use those terms and I have no problem asking people who do not to do so in my presence. If they continue to do so it merely shows a lack of respect for me but I never bring it up twice. Once should be enough.

First you advocate the use of racial slurs, and then you issue a correction on it? So if you don't have a problem with a slur, why would you ask someone to desist from their use? I find consistency utterly lacking.

As for my "loss of self-control" that old battle buddy of mine had for a number of days prior expressed a fervent desire to strangle me for trying to steer him clear of fights with other people and to stop getting everyone in trouble.. So when 6' 4" him decides to get in the face of 5' 9" me with a weapon in his hand, you think I flew off the handle in hitting him? I hit him once and half-powered it. This is before he had a chance to hit me. After I did it and knocked him out, I sat down and put my weapon down on the ground and crossed my arms. He's lucky I didn't finish the job.

"Just walk away" ... like I had that option in boot. The guy slept three bunks away from me. After they assigned his sorry butt to me, I had to nursemaid him everywhere, and wonder if he was ever going to turn on me when no one was looking. Nice of you to offer your advice on it. Too bad it smacks of the "high horse" rather than the "high road."

Oh and as for the "blue-eyed, round-eyed devil" crack, my mother is part Russian. Being of mixed parentage, I don't go around parroting idiotic racist slurs against Caucasians and I hold that without responsibility for one's speech and actions, those freedoms granted under the Constitution and Bill of Rights don't mean a thing. If you want to put insulting perceptions of Caucasians over the fence towards me, you can keep them. I don't see a problem with either blue or round eyes, but since you somehow appear to believe this is an insult that I would embrace for use, your stance on this whole issue becomes all the more painfully obvious.

Regardless, you've made yourself "glaringly clear" with just this quote:

I have no problem with the word "Jap"

And with those words, you throw your lot in with the ranks of those who defaced the war memorial to the 442nd RCT and those kids who tag the museum next door. Just keep both feet in your mouth. They become you. Good job.

-----

I've had quite enough of this forum, and am extremely disappointed in it. I thought the quality of people would be like that of TFL, but there are enough "questionables" as I read the threads to convince me that I would do much better talking to the guys at work rather than some nutcase civilian commando wannabes.

For those of you with good intentions, I wish you all the best. This is my last post; I am PMing the Moderators to remove my username and posts from this forum. I am going to use my time more constructively from now on. Like re-reading FMs.

You all take it easy. Peace out.

 

[jimpeel]

Ah, well. I guess you missed the smiley.

It is unfortunate that you choose to leave rather than stay and be informative. You add nothing to the debate by removing yourself from the sphere of influence.

I don't care if people use epithets but I do ask them ONCE not to do it around me. After that it is their issue. I would never use physical force against a person to stop them from calling me a name. As I stated previously, I am from the old school of sticks and stones.

You seem to have this unvented hostility that some day will get you in Dutch; or is that a Dutch slur?

A Gavacho is Spanish for a Caucasian and depends on its usage as to whether it is a slur.

A Yakus is a racial slur used by Black Muslims. Go back about ten posts to my post that begins "I have no problem with the word "Jap". " and read the seventh paragraph about Elijah Muhammad. I guess you never got past "I have no problem with the word "Jap". " as that is where you seem to be stuck in a rut.

I wish you well and all the best in life. I hope you outgrow the sensitivity and move on. You will never be able to defeat the bigots as another one is born every minute.

If you were to meet that magic snake in the desert, of many a bawdy tale, and he granted you your wish and it was "I wish that everyone on the face of the Earth was the same color." you would still have the slanted eyes against the round eyes; the blond hairs against the dark hairs; the straight hairs against the curly hairs; the tall against the short; the blue eyes against the brown eyes; the fat against the slim; the big ears against the small ears; the big feet against the small feet.

Your task is insurmountable and will glean nothing but frustration. The only answer is for your own personal growth beyond it. I cannot help you or guide you on that path. That is for you and you alone to walk.

The part I left out when I spoke of my Black / White / Mexican / Indian grandson is that we sincerely hope he will someday marry an Oriental Jewish woman and make the circle complete.

God bless you and yours,

J

 

[MeekandMild]

MeekandMild, could you not use the word "Jap" again? Thanks much.

Sure, no problem. In the context of present persons, places and times I never use it and don't plan to start.

In the context of a genocidal war a half century ago I would humbly suggest it might still be an appropriate word. I do agree it has traditionally been meant to be defamatory and demeaning and to dehumanize however it was directed at an enemy who mercilessly killed Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, Australians, Indonesian and Americans and who subjected POWs to sadistic torture. Every single WWII vet I have ever known (yes, those Americans of Japanese ancestry as well) used it, and I used it in honor of their memory.

For some reason I think your personal actions fighting with your Army buddy to be far more mature and 'real' than the politically correct wordsmithing that people seem to fall into these days to avoid the appearance of pretending to intend to be offensive.

It is a little bit disconcerting though to learn that troops in Basic Training have the time, energy and luxury to do anything beyond just surviving and learning.

 

[Khornet]

Not to un-hijack the thread

but the point made here that we are in Iraq for our benefit is correct. It is to our advantage to have a democracy smack in the middle of all the terror sponsoring states. It has already shown salutary effect, e.g. Libya.

We must get over that nicey-nice American notion that folks should be grateful for our rebuilding Iraq. We shouldn't be doing it because we want to be nice; we should be doing it because it's smart. Don't expect gratitude, and you won't losse your cool when they're ungrateful. Angry men make mistakes.

That said, I do think the perps and the town which harbors them should suffer for it. The perps should die. The town should be excluded from participation in the Iraqi government, and should immediately see a sharp drop in services and supplies, which would pointedly go to other cities. They should be told when and if they straighten up, they'll be allowed to participate. No need for a bloodbath. We have every right to be outraged, but our response should be cold, calculating, and dispassionate.

St. Johns, good to hear from you again. I think you vastly underestimat the response in America to the Madrid bombings. The front page of my little New Hampshire paper was plastered with it for days. People here were very angry. You do us an injustice, sir.

 

[Brian Dale]

Extending the tangent...

could you not use the word "Jap" again? Thanks much.

This was a request from a Member. Not long ago, everybody's response (I think) would have been, "Sure thing, bud; you got it."

 

[TaurusCIA]

This was a request from a Member. Not long ago, everybody's response (I think) would have been, "Sure thing, bud; you got it."

Sometimes our expectations are too high.

 

[Ky Larry]

As usual, we've missed the point. The reason we are trying to police the Middle East is to ensure a steady, reliable, cheap source of oil. I'm not much for "coulda-shoulda-woulda" but I recall former President Carter calling for America to be energy self sufficient by the year 2000. If we had listened in 1978, we wouldn't be losing American lives in Iraq today. Just because we missed the boat 25 years ago does not mean we have to repeat the same mistakes. If we continue with the same energy policies, our children will still be dying in the Middle East 25 years from now.

 

[MeekandMild]

Sometimes our expectations are too high.

Probably.



The off topic discussion engendered here seems to point to the validity of the assertion that punishing the people who just happen to be there is not at all as good of a solution as punishing the enemy leaders.

 

[fix]

I have done more for racial integration with my penis that the likes of Jesse Jackson could do with an endless supply of school buses.

That has to be the funniest thing I've ever seen on THR. Definitely needs to go in the list of famous THR quotes!!!