Lever action vs. pump action rifle peculiarities...

[TSH77769]

I just recently found a Timberwolf 357 pump rifle. I love it. It is really quite amazing and has some interesting design features.

I do think that the pump action is faster and more natural for me than a lever action.

HOWEVER I have one BIG concern in regards to its potential use for self defense...

The Timberwolf (and also all the lightning clones) REQUIRE the action to be open in order to load the tube. By contrast the lever action rifles such as the the 92's & 94's are able to be topped off with the action closed on a chambered round ready to fire. So, not only does the lever action allow you to have a chambered round ready to fire while you are reloading but they are generally able to be topped off easier.

What do you all think about the importance of that?

tsh77769

 

[CA Raider]

i'd like to know how accurate your Timberwolf is.
Next time you do some shooting - can you give us some realistic feedback?
I'm not sure why the Israeli's dropped that rifle - seemed like a good idea.

cheers,
CA R

 

[ugaarguy]

I think it's just a quirk of the old lightning design. I cant think of a pump shotgun that doesn't allow one to load the mag tube with the bolt closed. If AR-15s weren't so cheap and plentiful maybe Remington would bring back the 7615 / 7615P. Top off, nah - just pop in a fresh mag.

 

[Jackal]

I think if your worried about something like this, you need to buy an AK.

 

[CurlyQ]

Personally, I find a pump easier to keep on target between shots than a lever gun.

 

[TSH77769]

I already have plenty of AK's.

The Timberwolf is not one of the lightning clones. It is a unique and modern design.

I just test fired the weapon for the first time today in driving wind and rain. I just wanted to see how it functioned with a variety of ammo. I did not try for accuracy. The gun worked perfectly, even with .38 special HP's.

Tsh77769

 

[sappyg]

HOWEVER I have one BIG concern in regards to its potential use for self defense...

The Timberwolf (and also all the lightning clones) REQUIRE the action to be open in order to load the tube.

What do you all think about the importance of that?

tsh77769

I don't think it's a big deal but I've never been in a gunfight much less had to reload during a gunfight.

 

[jmr40]

You'll definately shoot a pump faster for accuracy. It is possible to shoot a pistol caliber lever gun pretty fast, but all the movement takes the sights all over the place. If you actually want to hit anything and take the time to get your sights back on target a lever is only slightly, if any faster than a bolt rifle. Especially in rifle calibers. But a pump is only slightly slower than a semi, even when shooting for accruacy.

It only takes a fraction of a second to close the action on a pump. Not much of an issue at all for me.

 

[peacemaker45]

You'll definately shoot a pump faster for accuracy. It is possible to shoot a pistol caliber lever gun pretty fast, but all the movement takes the sights all over the place. If you actually want to hit anything and take the time to get your sights back on target a lever is only slightly, if any faster than a bolt rifle. Especially in rifle calibers. But a pump is only slightly slower than a semi, even when shooting for accruacy.

It only takes a fraction of a second to close the action on a pump. Not much of an issue at all for me.

That's a sign of poor technique with the lever, not an advantage of the pump.

When shooting a lever action, the keys are:

First, keep it firmly on your shoulder between shots. No need to dismount.

Second, hold the forearm firmly, keeping back pressure on it. That keeps the gun controlled between the non shooting hand and shoulder, and leaves the shooting hand free to manipulate the trigger and lever without having to grip and ungrip the wrist with each shot.

Third, keep the elbow of your shooting arm in close to your ribs, not chicken winged out to the side. That way you can just piston your arm forward and down to work the lever, without moving the accompanying shoulder.

I can't comment on how recoil affects those with other builds or strength levels, but for me, the sights don't leave the target between shots even at full power .44-40 or .45 Colt levels. .44 Mag and above, the sights do lift clear.

The problem with the pump rifles is that it's the forward hand doing the work. Since it's closer to the front sight, it has a leverage advantage over the rear hand, which is trying to control the rifle. If you don't work the slide straight back and forth, you'll have a good deal of deflection which the shooting hand, using only three fingers, and at a leverage disadvantage, can't compensate for.

 

[peacemaker45]

Whoops, got distracted and forgot to answer the OP's question.

If you're spending a few hours huddled behind a Connestoga wagon with a hostile war party circling round, or belly down in a buffalo wallow with same, then the ability to keep the gun fed without taking it out of battery becomes important.

For modern self defense concerns, however, where the expectation is of a few decisive shots, and the scenario over in a hurry, it probably doesn't matter much. If you find yourself needing more than the 10 or 13 rounds in the gun, you're probably fighting a war. In that case, I'd suggest that one of your semi-auto rifles, with box mags would be far the more efficient choice.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I really like my 30-30 lever action rifle and my 12 gauge pump shotgun. I am fast cycling both. I think I am faster with the pump at reloading. I could see where a pump rifle might be a bit superior. I've thought about getting a pump rifle but love the lever rifle too much to change.

 

[CA Raider]

sheepdog - how fast can you gt the 30-30 back on the target for a follow-up shot? just curious.

CA R

 

[MattShlock]

...I've thought about getting a pump rifle but love the lever rifle too much to change.

Wanna try something interesting? The Henry .22 Mag pump. It's pretty sharp...

 

[hatt]

I don't see where it's a big deal. Train on how to load it quickly if you're concerned. You need to train with the lever too. Everything has it quirks. Not pushing the cartridge past the loading gate will jam the action.

 

[Bushpilot]

The selection of pump action vs. lever really comes down to being more of a personal choice. Either way, the bottom line for most shooters is that in the right hands they are both capable of being very fast.

There was a time when many Cowboy action shooters were concerned that the Colt Lightning style pump's assumed speed advantage would take over and dominate the sport, replacing the lever action and thus altering the more traditional look and feel of the sport. However, that fear never materialized. That says a lot for the speed potential of the lever action.

More on point as far as the OP's original question is concerned; the ability to reload with the action closed, while a plus, is probably not going to be a factor 999 times out of a 1000 for the average person and I wouldn't be too concerned about it, especially with the capacity of the Timberwolf. There are lots of very good "defense" guns that can't be topped off or reloaded while ready to go.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

CAraider, i've never timed it but will try timing it at some point. I've taken it to several rifle self defense classes and felt comfortable at how quickly I could get a second shot off.

As for the pump shotgun, I use it for clay shooting. I can pump it fast enough to easily get a second shot off on the same clay if I miss with the first.

Mattshlock, I've considered getting a 22 pump for just the reason to have one.

 

[publiuss]

I always thought the Timberwolf was a neat little gun. Would like to have one but I've never even seen one. I heard they quit making them because it was a pain in the butt to manufacture.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

If you actually want to hit anything and take the time to get your sights back on target a lever is only slightly, if any faster than a bolt rifle.

Howdy

Only slightly faster than a bolt? Gotta agree with Mat not the doormat. If your front sight is jumping all over the place, you are doing something wrong with a lever gun.

Here is the interesting thing. About 7 or 8 years ago all the replica Colt lightning rifles started showing up on dealer's shelves. There was a lot of bellyaching in the Cowboy Action Shooting world that the pumps would take over and the day of the lever gun would be over. Never happened. Besides the fact that some of the pumps did not work very well, even with the Pedersolis, which were the best, the pumps never made a dent in the lever gun's popularity. To this day, you very seldom see a pump style rifle at a CAS match, lever guns still dominate completely.

If pumps were that much faster, they would have taken over.

 

[CA Raider]

"If pumps were that much faster, they would have taken over. "

thanks for that feedback. have not been to a CAS match - I should go some time. can't argue with what you and BushPilot are saying.

CA R