Liberty

[CZ 75 BD]

From today's PatriotPost.us


"It could take a hundred years, or as little as a generation, to rediscover the freedom our Founders hammered into the U.S. Constitution. Much of our freedom has already been lost, but the rediscovery cannot even begin to emerge until the weight of government oppression grows too heavy to bear. Early Americans felt the weight of King George's oppression, until they could bear it no more. Then, they acted. Not all of the early Americans had reached the tipping point in 1776. In fact, many, if not most of the people, preferred to suffer oppression by the king, rather than to pay the cost of freedom. Many, if not most, of the people in America today, prefer to suffer governmental oppression, rather than to pay the cost of freedom. So far, governmental oppression is not too heavy; people can still do almost anything they wish—if they can get a permit." —Henry Lamb

 

[WillBrayJr]

All I see is talk about losing our rights and I'm not just talking about our right to keep and bare arms. Neither Republican or Democrat focuses on all major problems. The point is both the Government and Justice System is $@%&ed up because we let it get that way.

Too many people have seen this country go to Hell and just sit there and do nothing. I know there are more than enough people to easily kick the Government's @$$. Firearms are meant to defend so lets use them to defend our Freedom. Will people die? Of course, but I'd rather risk dying to be free than to just sit there and let someone strip me of my Freedom.

If good men do nothing, than that's evil enough. Lets face it folks, God only helps those who helps themselves.

 

[ambush]

Good luck with your semi-auto hunting rifle against "their" apache attack helo...we've already been dis-armed enough to not be able to fight back.

 

[Kodiaz]

There is more than one way to skin a cat. If technology is so overwhelming why aren't we finished in Iraq.

 

[ambush]

Because they are not allowed to unleash the technology.

 

[WillBrayJr]

Because they are not allowed to unleash the technology.

Thats all I here, "Not Allowed". Dude, I don't have any real firearms period. Haven't you read any of my other posts. Besides that I was only making a suggestion. I'd rather die period than losing any of my Freedom.

 

[robert garner]

Soooo....

David and Goliath?
Warsaw Ghetto
Thermopolae
Wouldn't you take a broomstick to a bear for your kid?
Is personal survival the only yardstick of your patiotism?
That thinking doesn't prevail
Hamburger,pork chop,D-Day, all the way back to Trenton
NO Gaurantees
look at the #'s civilians vs military and figure most military to include Officers
Would not engage Americans in the persuit of Liberty.
Let he who has no heart for this fight depart
for I would not die in his company.
Paging Mrs.Wolf?

 

[middy]

It's not too late to do it without bloodshed.

Personally, it would have to get a whole lot worse for me to get behind another civil war.

 

[Kodiaz]

Look a civil war would be foolish. The problem isn't all the people in govt. it's the people that crap on the constitution. When you have a brain tumor the doctor doesn't cut off your head with a samurai sword. He gets his scalpel and cuts out the tumor.


We have a scalpel problem not a samurai sword problem.

 

[azredhawk44]

Good luck with your semi-auto hunting rifle against "their" apache attack helo...we've already been dis-armed enough to not be able to fight back.

I disagree.

We may not have general ownership of full-auto weapons, but just about any given US city and its suburbs (besides SF, Chicago, NY and DC) there are hundreds of class-3 permit holders and weapons.

There are tens of thousands of semi-auto rifles of varying lethality from FALs and M1A's to AR15's to Mini-30's to 10/22's to Remington 7400's.

There are tens of thousands more highly accurate bolt action hunting rifles capable of incredible accuracy out to 500 yards or further.

And there are hundreds of cities in the US that fit this description.

About a year ago I saw a guy with a silenced bolt action .50BMG at the range. Have fun finding him in a ghillie suit when he is slamming your APC at 1000 yards without a sound.

The full-auto permit system does not forbid ownership of these weapons (yet). It tries to keep them out of the hands of common thugs (with mixed results). If a revolution becomes necessary, the weapons will always be there. There's just too many.

But it's not time yet.

 

[WillBrayJr]

I said that the Government needs a good kick in the @$$ and we COULD do it if we WANTED to. Did I say we were going to, NO and did I say I was going to, NO. It's called Freedom of Speech. I may have pi$$ed some people off by saying that, but what I said wasn't illegal.

I do agree that everything that is wrong with this country can be made right peacefully.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

The reality of a civil war in this country would be too ugly to comprehend and I sincerely hope we haven't gone too far down that particular slippery slope.

But if we have, I guarantee you that rural Americans would quickly get and maintain control of their lands. The metro areas would devolve into Mogadishu-type chaos, but the rural population would be well equipped to protect their regions. They have the weapons (and know how to use them), they have the intimate knowledge of their terrain needed for a successful insurgancy, and most importantly they have a cohesive (if, at times, contentious) social structure that would enable them to form functioning cells.

If the S hits the F, I'll be high-tailing it for the woods in short order.

 

[Zundfolge]

We may not have general ownership of full-auto weapons, but just about any given US city and its suburbs (besides SF, Chicago, NY and DC) there are hundreds of class-3 permit holders and weapons.

There's part of the problem ... too many assume that full auto trumps semi auto.

Full auto less useful in urban combat than in combat on the open countryside.

Most full auto weapons are used by our army with the switch set on semi anyway.


My AR-15 will be quite effective against someone armed with an M4 (especially if they lose their trigger discipline under pressure and burn up all their ammo first).


Lobotomy Boy's assessment is pretty much spot on ... the cities will be either starved out quickly or not even enter into the fight. Some rural areas are lacking in resources and will fold quickly. The Rocky Mountains will be a hotbed of resistance for decades.

 

[Old Dog]

So Lamb's little piece gets folks talkin' 'bout armed rebellion against the government?

I'm still not sure where Lamb was going with all this ...

Much of our freedom has already been lost, but the rediscovery cannot even begin to emerge until the weight of government oppression grows too heavy to bear.

Yeah, well ... what freedom is he talking about? Essentially, he seems to be saying that we are oppressed ... because we need "permits" to do things. Are we truly "oppressed?" If you view the oppression as economic, while we are taxed for almost everything, pay fees for much, pay for licensing, registration, permits ... well, it's not necessarily oppression in the sense that we have lost all capability to do these things.

Most Americans still experience a degree of freedom that was not known to colonial Americans. Most colonial Americans, less the aristocrats and those daring few who knew how to live off the land and use all the weaponry available, could not afford to travel outside their farms, villages or towns. Most colonial Americans could not afford entertainment of any sort. Most lived pretty wretched lives, in relative squalor, prone to disease and pests, with a markedly short life expectancy. Most colonial Americans were considered poor; there was no real "middle-class" and the average working person toiled sunup to sundown and took only Sundays off from his/her labor.

Contrast this with the average quality of life today for even many Americans living under the so-called "poverty line." Those who are not homeless typically still have running water, indoor plumbing, heat and ... color television. Most Americans have it within their means to do some travelling each year, even if within their home state. Vacations, or at least long weekends and plentiful time off (compared to colonial Americans) are de rigeur for even working-class citizens of limited income.

So what freedoms have we really lost?

I'm asking, because I see folks mention our lost freedoms on a daily basis on this forum, and others.

Someone please describe a freedom they've lost to our oppressive government. Aside from anything economic, i.e., having to pay a fee to register a vehicle, get a driver license or concealed pistol license or a building permit or pay a library fine or a speeding ticket ...

Yeah, our government spies on its citizens. And this isn't right. Yeah, our government makes commercial air travel a royal PITA. Yeah, our government taxes lower income folks too heavily and provides too many tax loopholes for the extremely wealthy. Yeah, fees for licenses suck.

We've lost some things that are rights. Or were rights. But what freedoms? 'Splain please, how you are personally oppressed and less free than Americans circa 1779.

Early Americans felt the weight of King George's oppression, until they could bear it no more. Then, they acted. Not all of the early Americans had reached the tipping point in 1776. In fact, many, if not most of the people, preferred to suffer oppression by the king, rather than to pay the cost of freedom.

Yes, well of course ... back then, the majority of those "early Americans" feeling the weight of the king's oppression were mainly the wealthy, land-owning white male aristocrats ... three percent tax on their goods with no representation in the King's government really ticked 'em off ...

Nowadays, of course, the majority is happy with weekends off from work, a couple weeks vacation a year, a good microwave oven, a decent cell phone plan with lots of free peak minutes, a new SUV, truck or Honda Accord every couple of years, a big screen television for viewing NFL football or NASCAR and ... if we're lucky, a place within 50 miles to go shoot our legal firearms ...

 

[xd9fan]

maybe if more voters would do a spot check between their legs and check for a sack........and then vote on the only real party that understands liberty.....and not vote based on fear or odds.......a change would take place. God knows the GOP has lost it......and they should not be rewarded with a vote based on their past performance.

If the libertarian party got 20-40% of the vote they would become a hell of a lot more organized as well.

 

[GoRon]

Why skip the non violent civil disobedience step?

What if one of Mayor Daley and Gov. Blago crazy bills passes and becomes law here in Illinois. By July 4th all semi auto guns must be turned in or accounted for.

If the gun owners of the state just ignored the unconstitutional law and marched on the state capitital in protest the law would be dumped.

As Old Dog so eloquently pointed out, we are far from oppressed or powerless.

No need top go straight to armed conflict.

 

[Kodiaz]

Nonviolence resulted in the Waco fire and the Weaver slaughter. Granted thing look a lot better now than they did in the 90's.

 

[Dionysusigma]

Why skip the non violent civil disobedience step?

Because it doesn't work. People are not swayed by demonstrations--only by money, or actions taken after the toothless demonstration has ended.

'Splain please, how you are personally oppressed and less free than Americans circa 1779.

Because our oppressor is among us, and because nobody knows what the laws are until it's impossible (or illegal--there's a thought) to change them.

Nowadays, of course, the majority is happy with weekends off from work; a couple weeks (of) vacation a year; a good microwave oven; a decent cell phone plan with lots of free peak minutes; a new SUV, truck or Honda Accord every couple of years; a big screen television for viewing NFL football or NASCAR...

Hmm. I don't have any of that. Can I revolt now, or should I wait until I'm given the right to do so?

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Main Entry: right
Function: noun
1 : qualities (as adherence to duty or obedience to lawful authority) that together constitute the ideal of moral propriety or merit moral approval
2 : something to which one has a just claim: as
a : the power or privilege to which one is justly entitled
3 : something that one may properly claim as due
4 : the cause of truth or justice

Main Entry: free·dom
Function: noun
1 : The quality or state of being free; as
a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action
b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : INDEPENDENCE
c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous <freedom from care>
d : EASE, FACILITY <spoke the language with freedom>
g : boldness of conception or execution
h : unrestricted use <gave him the freedom of their home>
2 a : A political right

 

[CAnnoneer]

Civil war is way way in the future even if the current tendencies continue. What makes people angy is the visage of what is to come if a bunch of crappers in both major parties manage to achieve their respective wet dreams...

 

[Byron Quick]

Most colonial Americans could not afford entertainment of any sort. Most lived pretty wretched lives, in relative squalor, prone to disease and pests, with a markedly short life expectancy. Most colonial Americans were considered poor; there was no real "middle-class" and the average working person toiled sunup to sundown and took only Sundays off from his/her labor.

So the communities both rural and town didn't have dances, songfests, play cards, drink alcoholic beverages at taverns, etc? "For entertainment the colonists would bowl, horse race, husk and have quilting bees. Also, they danced and played cards, billiards and pool. In the winter, they would go ice-skating. They used to call bowling "skittles" and they also used 9 pins instead of 10. Then, one of the colonists snuck in another pin to make it more interesting. They also hunted, had cock fights, and gambled. People came from all around to watch the matches. Some days they had building competitions and cabin competitions to see who had the best skills." The foregoing is from research done by fifth graders on New Hampshire colonial entertainment. It doesn't take much effort to do a modicum of research. These people certainly had developed an amazing amount of entertainment for a people sunk in such poverty and squalor.
You need to go back and do the research on life expectancy. It's expressed as an average. Both the life span then and now. Two big differences in in the individual life spans that made up the average for then: 1)childhood illnesses and childbirth. If you lived to be a teenager and were male, the life expectancy from that point on was virtually identical...the people were not sitting around and moaning about only having forty-two years. Ben Franklin lived to be 84. You will not find one single contemporary writing about how he lived twice as long as almost anyone else. There's a reason for this-it wouldn't have been true. As far as there being no real middle-class, please examine the works of David Hackett Fischer. According to his research, the middle class was where the American Revolution really got its support. The poor and the wealthy were much more likely to be Loyalists. Surviving diaries and journals written by British and Hessian soldiers of the time were dumbfounded by the affluence of the New Jersey countryside during the winter campaign of 1776 and 1777.
As far as the length of work times go...in many ways you are comparing apples and oranges. One small example: farm workers had a hard physical job then. But they worked with the sun. Fewer farm workers needed today. But I've driven by a dairy before the sun rose (on my way to work) and saw the lights on in the barns as cows were milked and driven by the same farm that night (on my home from work) and have seen tractors working the fields by their headlight. You might not know it but those cows will still need to be milked on Sundays, too. I work in a hospital. I just got off of four twelve hour shifts-Thursday night through Sunday night. One of the MD's I worked with did two 24 hour shifts during that period and was starting his third 24 hour shift as I was leaving this morning. For many people, who've worked all their lives, a forty hour week is something they've only heard about. I'm 51. I've never had one. In the Army, everyone was complaining about the hours. I thought I was on easy street.

The picture you're trying to paint doesn't hold up well to analysis. As far as lost freedoms, start making a list of things that are felonies today that were not crimes in 1906. After finishing that rather long list, then inform me exactly why I should not consider my grandfather in 1906 to be much freer than I am in 2006. Consider that my grandfather could do many things without penalty that would be punished by prison and fines today. Being put in prison fits my definition of loss of freedom. Maybe your definition is different. Please advise. You can leave out the discovery of penicillin and other medical discoveries that have resulted in the average life span increasining. For one thing, this wasn't accomplised by government. For another, it is completely irrelevant to the discussion of the relationship between citizens and government.

 

[xd9fan]

when was the last time an american politician talked about liberty here in american?????

 

[cz75bdneos22]

there is no such thing as liberty per se in a civilized society...what we have or better yet...choose to have are freedoms defined within the construct of man-made laws...these are malleable..as some are quick to point out..they vary,and will continue to vary accordingly to reflect past, present and future changes in cultural/social values and mores...i think!

 

[Old Dog]

Ah, Byron, at least there's one person onboard capable of trying to muster facts before blindly spouting off about the "loss of freedoms." Good job on your quick research of life in colonial America. Still not, however, typical of all the communities nor those living in the frontier areas, nor the indentured labor, the slaves and the wretchedly poor (of whom there were considerable numbers). However, you still didn't answer the questions:

Someone please describe a freedom they've lost to our oppressive government.

'Splain please, how you are personally oppressed and less free than Americans circa 1779.

Simply saying there are more laws on the books making more actions felonies does not deliniate any freedoms you personally have lost.

Consider that my grandfather could do many things without penalty that would be punished by prison and fines today.

Hmm. Such as? I'm sure putting an addition on a house without obtaining the appropriate permits from the county government is not normally an offense punishable by prison ... Perhaps fines, to be sure ... Presumably, one would want to take into account the advances in the society. As any society develops, more laws are created. Government grows larger. Of course there are more laws now than in 1906.

I venture to say that if your grandfather conducted his life in present day in the same manner in which he lived in 1906, he would not run afoul of the law and face time in prison. (Unless of course, he liked to distill his own liquor or otherwise lived some sort of outlaw lifestyle.)

C'mon, examples, please, of concrete freedoms which you've lost, not what-ifs in the event you run askance of some obsure criminal or administrative code of your particular state.

I'm merely trying to get people to actually understand what they're saying before they go on blithely chattering about their horrible state of oppression and all their long-lost freedoms. It becomes most tiresome to hear the constant repetition of the same vague phrases by people who clearly don't understand what they're really saying.

 

[ingram]

but what I said wasn't illegal.

YET.

maybe in a couple years

 

[LAK]

I disagree.

We may not have general ownership of full-auto weapons, but just about any given US city and its suburbs (besides SF, Chicago, NY and DC) there are hundreds of class-3 permit holders and weapons.....

A year or two ago, and according to a mainstream gun publication IIRC, I noted that there are more automatic wepons in private hands in the United States than Federal and State agencies. I guess that means, alot of them.

However, automatic weapons are probably more a liability in terms of wasting huge quantities of ammo overall and running out on the battlefield, than some sort of strategic advantage. Except in very disciplined hands. More significant IMO are the millions of medium bore rifles, be they sporting or surplus; these re far more likely to be effective on a per bullet basis.

What most people are currently overlooking are what Ambush mentioned. So-called "less than lethal" weapons that come in various forms like blinding lasers, sound cannons and high powered microwave weapons that can be used to cause anything from complete mental upsets to cooking bodies alive en masse. They can be used over large areas and some have considerable range. These in exclusively government hands are what people should currently be concerned with.
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