Limp Wristing??

[tws3b2]

Ok, I'm a da. I have no idea what you're talking about when you say " Limp Wristing" . I even hear people say it can cause problems with the gun itself. How can that be? When I hear "limp wrist" I think of someone holding a gun out and instead of pointing straight out it's pointing down. Anybody willing enlighten this old da.

 

[twofewscrews]

If you do not grip certain kinds of pistols correctly, either due to poor technique/training or injury, the pistol will fire but will not clear the spent cartridge and/or will not cycle a fresh round into the chamber. I don't own a pistol/handgun so that's only what I've been told. If it was in regards to a pump action shotgun it would mean you're failing to rack the shotgun with authority or limp wristing it which would result in a failure to eject a spent round and failure to load a fresh round.

 

[Zerodefect]

The pistol has to be held firmly to cycle properly. Especially weak calibers like .380 and 9mm.

Cycling the slide is a finely tuned balancing act. Err towards too easy to cycle and the pistol is harsh. Too hard to cycle, and it's too unreliable.

It's a balance of:
Grip, ammo power, speed of the powder burn, barrel cam, recoil spring, main spring or striker spring, weight of slide, and more.

 

[Scooter22]

The slide on a semi auto pistol has to travel all the way back on the frame to properly eject, cock and strip a new round from the mag. If you don't hold the pistol firmly this won't happen. Thats what "Limp wristing"is. Allowing the whole pistol to partially move back taking some of the recoil impulse from the slide. Very common problem especially with new shooters.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Generally a problem with low powered pocket pistols or those with very stout return springs. If you dont grip the pistol securely enough, the entire gun will recoil in your hand as a unit and the slide will not have a stationary platform (the frame) to work against.

.22s, .25s, .32s and Officer's Model- type .45s are notorious offenders. A basic truism is "The smaller the gun, the tighter the grip."

 

[792mauser]

Not holding the weapon with an authoritative grip.
Loosey goosey, a weak grip.

It eats up the weapons reserve of energy with free movement. Some are on the edge of having enough energy and this then causes malfunctions.

 

[Airborne Falcon]

So limp wristing causes some issues where energy transferral from the firearm through the weapon itself is concerned ... or rather the shock absorbing values of your strong arm upon ignition.

I had it put to me like this years ago.

Which absorbs the energy of a blow from your fist better? A brick wall or a pillow?

When it comes to semiauto handguns you want less absorption, not more. Therefore a stiff arm, strong grip approach is better than one which absorbs the energy of the recoil, especially uncontrolled flip-ups of the muzzle ... ala limp-wristing.

Limp wristing is never good. Not when shooting, hand shaking or posturing for a answer.

 

[herrwalther]

Vast majority of the time, "limp wristing" is a catch-all term to explain semi-auto pistol malfunction. I have seen RSOs scream limp wrist on light primer strike failure to fire malfunctions. It is an overused term like "stopping power."

Caveat: Poor grip can cause some malfunctions, usually failure to eject. If you subscribe to a firm handshake when meeting people you can shoot a handgun.

 

[JohnKSa]

First of all, it is a problem specific to semi-autos.
Second, it is primarily an issue in locked breech, recoil-operated pistols.

Especially weak calibers like .380 and 9mm.

It has more to do with the recoil vs. the weight of the gun. Some of the worst offenders are small/light guns in heavier calibers.

As the gun gets lighter, all else being equal, grip becomes more important. This is because the frame, being lighter, has less inertia to hold it in place while the slide & barrel recoil.

As the caliber/muzzle-momentum goes up, all else being equal, grip becomes more important. This is because the recoil spring stiffness tends to increase with muzzle momentum and that couples the slide/barrel together with the frame more tightly, requiring the shooter to provide more resistance against the frame.

I've had grip-related malfunctions in two of my guns. One (which I no longer own) was a plastic-framed, full-sized .45ACP and it would reliably malfunction when held in a light, one-handed grip. Since I bought it for bullseye shooting, it was pointless to keep it. The other is a plastic-framed, full-sized 10mm that stove-piped while I was shooting it one-handed with my left hand.

 

[tws3b2]

Thanks guys. All that makes sense. Now I can say I'm a little less ignorant than I was this time yesterday. Wich is always a good thing. Well. Most of the time.

 

[JTQ]

Military Arms Channel has a bunch of videos on limp wristing. Here's one.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

Limp wristing is one of my pet peeves. The folks here did a fine job defining and describing it.

My take on the issue is that it's nothing more than mismatch between the strength of the recoil spring and the ability of the shooter to resist rearward movement of the pistol. Everyone else has already said this in their own words.

The real question is how to eliminate the issue. Some say take steroids and pump iron for 3 hours every day at the gym to bulk up and get stronger. I say put a lighter recoil spring in the pistol. Keep in mind that as the recoil spring compresses the force stored in the spring is pushing forward and backward equally at the same time. A lighter recoil spring results in less of a push against the shooter's hand. The balancing act for the recoil spring is to use one that's as light as possible without compromising the pistol's ability to chamber the next round.

My wife is a fitness nut. She runs triathlons for fun and has completed a full Iron Man. She coaches the high school fitness team (a club sport) and can knock out 50 man push ups at will. Yet, if I hand her a 1911 that runs perfectly for me, she will experience malfunctions caused by the dreaded limp wrist. She simply doesn't have the upper body strength or mass that I have. Consequently, I have her live fire test all my 1911s. If there are any limp wrist related malfunctions, I'll start swapping out springs until those malfs cease. I want her to be able to shoot all the 1911s in the house weak handed, standing on one foot, in a torrential downpour, with her strong hand behind her back. That way I know they'll run for either of us in a worst case scenario.

Here's a video that's been seen by everyone multiple times.

 

[JohnKSa]

I don't think it's purely a matter of upper body strength--I think it's more an issue of the gun and the grip technique.

As the video shows, there certainly are some guns that are more prone to it than others, some that seem to really require a good grip all the time, some that can hardly be made to malfunction even with an obviously poor grip.

I've seen people who are very strong have limp-wristing issues from poor technique; I've seen some people with extremely poor upper body strength who never had an issue, even with guns that seem to be prone to the problem.

I do think that people who have less hand/upper body strength may have to be more careful with their technique.

One other thing I have seen is that someone fighting a gun fit issue can be more prone to the problem. Particularly someone with small hands trying to deal with a large grip. That makes it hard for them to get their finger on the trigger while still keeping their wrist behind the gun.

 

[Steve in Allentown]

I don't think it's purely a matter of upper body strength--I think it's more an issue of the gun and the grip technique.

I agree but maintain that modifying the pistol to work for the person no matter the ultimate cause of the "limping" is the preferable course. That's not to say training can't achieve the same result but my focus is on absolute reliability in the worst possible conditions including the inability to get and maintain an ideal grip.

As you say, the pistol itself is part of the issue and that's where I focus in my personal situation. I should add that my wife also shot IDPA with me for a number of seasons so she's no stranger to 1911s and can put me to shame on the square range (sometimes).

 

[JTQ]

I should add that my wife also shot IDPA with me for a number of seasons so she's no stranger to 1911s and can put me to shame on the square range (sometimes).

Was the 1911 her pistol of choice, or did she primarily shoot something else that may have been less susceptible to limp wristing, for her at least?

 

[browneu]

I had an HK 45 that I always ended up limp wristing no matter how I firmly I held it. I'm not a weak person and wondered it it's because I have tiny wrists. So, the gun was sold and I go by the mantra, tiny wrists are good for making your arms look bigger when lifting weights but not good for heavy calibers with polymer frames. At least for me.

 

[Rexster]

More than just the wrist is involved, in a firm platform for reliable auto-loading function. The ulnar nerve, which is familiar to us as the “funny bone,” is involved in the ability of the little and ring fingers to grip firmly, and is also involved in the function of the thumb. When my ulnar nerve is having a bad day, I can get malfunctions of the type associated with limp-wristing, which is why I have tended to type it as “numb-thumbing/limp-wristing.” When I have experienced such malfunctions, I have sometimes noticed that my thumb is what seemed to fail me, rather than my wrist.

I did used to suffer from Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, which I was able to heal, with physical therapy.

My wife, who has a medical educational background, recently told me that overall stress can be a factor, in ulnar nerve malfunctions. Interesting. I am not saying that she has expertise in this area. I am, certainly, no expert.

 

[Rexster]

Here's a video that's been seen by everyone multiple times.

In this video, the shooter’s thumb does appear to be providing quite substantial support.

Interestingly, his worst result is with a service-sized Glock 9mm pistol, whereas I have never experienced such malfs with G17, G19, and G26 9mm Glocks, Gen3 and Gen4. None, at all. One Gen3 G22, .40 S&W, was temperamental, until I replaced the magazine springs with heavier Wolff springs, but this was in 2002, and my perceived limp-wrist/numb-thumb malfunctions started in 2011, about age 50. (Notably, my temperamental G22 was having its problems in 2002, during the time when others were tending to have issues with .40 Glocks, which, reportedly, resulted in Glock quietly upping the spring weight in their .40 magazines. But, that was also shortly after I had dealt with my case of CTS, so, a less-than firm grip may have been part of the overall equation.)

 

[Steve in Allentown]

Was the 1911 her pistol of choice, or did she primarily shoot something else that may have been less susceptible to limp wristing, for her at least?

She started out shooting a Colt LW Government .380 but quickly switched to a Government .45 because she didn't like being teased for shooting a tiny pistol.

 

[JTQ]

In this video, the shooter’s thumb does appear to be providing quite substantial support.

Interestingly, his worst result is with a service-sized Glock 9mm pistol, whereas I have never experienced such malfs with G17, G19, and G26 9mm Glocks, Gen3 and Gen4. None, at all.

Perhaps that is more about you gripping the Glock, than the Glock as a potential for limp wrist issues.

The typical characteristic for a malfunction, in his tests, since he isn't gripping them tightly and providing a counter to the recoil, is a light gun frame that doesn't provide much mass to counteract the slide recoil when you aren't providing the resistance.

Even if you aren't gripping the gun properly, a 1911, Beretta 92, SIG P226 may have enough frame mass to provide the counter force to the cycling slide. The lighter polymer frames don't seem to provide that.

 

[JTQ]

One Gen3 G22, .40 S&W, was temperamental, until I replaced the magazine springs with heavier Wolff springs, but this was in 2002, and my perceived limp-wrist/numb-thumb malfunctions started in 2011, about age 50. (Notably, my temperamental G22 was having its problems in 2002, during the time when others were tending to have issues with .40 Glocks, which, reportedly, resulted in Glock quietly upping the spring weight in their .40 magazines. But, that was also shortly after I had dealt with my case of CTS, so, a less-than firm grip may have been part of the overall equation.)

Remember, the reason for a the Gen 4 Glock's was because of the previous Generations of .40 S&W Glocks.

In addition, the Gen 5 .40 S&W Glocks have an entirely different slide.

 

[Nature Boy]

My wife, my daughter and a friend of my son’s all had this problem. None of them could get through a magazine without a FTF. My daughter was specific to one pistol, my son’s buddy encountered it with every pistol he fired.

I am the last thing from a pistol expert but I was able to explain what was going on once I ruled out the ammo and gun as the cause this way.

The slide requires a certain amount of inertia from recoil to eject the fired case and load the next round. If your wrist isn’t firm you’re absorbing that inertia and taking energy away from pistol that it needs to complete the cycle.

A few demonstrations of me firing a full mag without a jam showed them that it wasn’t the pistol, and an explanation of the nomenclature assigned this particular problem allowed them to not take it as a derogatory insult, and subsequently they all were able to get through a mag without a jam.

It is a shame that someone couldn’t come up with a better name for this issues

 

[gc70]

The slide requires a certain amount of inertia from recoil to eject the fired case and load the next round. If your wrist isn’t firm you’re absorbing that inertia and taking energy away from pistol that it needs to complete the cycle.

Whether it is the gun and hand pivoting at the wrist or the gun pivoting in the hand due to a loose grip, both result in losing recoil force that is needed to cycle the slide.

 

[sisyphus]

Not holding the weapon with an authoritative grip.
Loosey goosey, a weak grip.

It eats up the weapons reserve of energy with free movement. Some are on the edge of having enough energy and this then causes malfunctions.

not to mention that you won't be very accurate without an authoritative grip

 

[JohnKSa]

I don't know about that. A common mantra among bullseye shooters is to grip the gun only tightly enough to keep from dropping it. I know when I used to shoot bullseye, I got the best result when the gun was pretty much just resting in my hand--with me just barely holding onto it enough so that it wouldn't drop or jump out of my grip when it recoiled.