Longshot and 9mm, why so difficult?

[vaalpens]

A few weeks ago I tested some exploratory loads using Berry's 124gr HBFPTP and Longshot. The loads were evaluated at 10yards with the following results. These are all 5 shot groupings:

5.1gr, .93" grouping
5.3gr, .63" grouping

With these good results (for me) I decided to load up some additional loads and evaluate them at 15 yards. Following are the results. All 5 shot groupings again:

5.3gr, 3.5" grouping
5.4gr, 1.55" grouping
5.5gr, 1.40" grouping
5.6gr, 2.27" grouping (.97" grouping with one flyer)
5.7gr, 1.86" grouping

The 5.3gr result at 15 yards wasn't expected since I saw such a good grouping at 10yards. All other groupings are acceptable to me at 15yards, even the 5.6gr grouping which included a flyer.

My problem is that I am not sure on which loads I should spend my time on trying to fine tune it. It just seems to me that every time I try to work up a load in 9mm using Longshot, all my results are very similar with no clear trend to indicate the direction I should go in.

My initial thought is to just load 5 each again from 5.5gr to 5.7gr and see if any trend starts to materialize. Another option is to just pick one of them like 5.5gr and see if I can fine tune it a bit. Or I can just pick one of them, load up 25 or so, and go shoot them.

Please let me know if you have any ideas how I should approach the rest of my load workup with this combination of bullet and powder. Any comments will be appreciated.

 

[LiveLife]

I always repeat range tests to verify accuracy testing and use "known accurate" loads to reference accuracy of new loads.

If I am not getting accuracy trends with "known accurate" reference loads also, I will blame the shooter and repeat the range test (we all have good/bad range days).

If I am not getting accuracy trends with just the new loads, I will look at the new loads more closely.

For me, I would definitely retest the 5.6 gr load.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I have the best luck with the 5.5-5.6 gr loads and worked on fine tuning them. OAL seemed to make a significant difference in two of my three 9mm's.

The third one is a PF-9 and I have no desire to shoot longshot loads out of it.
It stays at home. My OAL for my longshot loads is 1.125" but that varies from gun to gun.

I've had really good luck with it and plated bullets.

 

[Conservidave]

My problem is that I am not sure on which loads I should spend my time on trying to fine tune it. It just seems to me that every time I try to work up a load in 9mm using Longshot, all my results are very similar with no clear trend to indicate the direction I should go in.

Dont get lost in the matrix of 0.1g increments. If 5.4g shoots as well as 5.7, i would opt for 5.4 and call it a day. If you're still not satisfied, then go back and work on fine tuning a bit. For me, load development for pistol is rarely a "one and done" adventure but rather a part of the process.

 

[savagemann]

When working on pistol loads, I like to do at least 20 or more of each.
That way I can shoot several groups and do re-shoots if needed.
I will usually shoot groups of 10 seated and supported, then shoot the remaining rounds offhand.

 

[vaalpens]

I always repeat range tests to verify accuracy testing and use "known accurate" loads to reference accuracy of new loads.

If I am not getting accuracy trends with "known accurate" reference loads also, I will blame the shooter and repeat the range test (we all have good/bad range days).

If I am not getting accuracy trends with just the new loads, I will look at the new loads more closely.

For me, I would definitely retest the 5.6 gr load.

Thanks bds. I am definitely going to blame the shooter. It was one of those days at the range where I had to fight to keep the focus on the front sight going. I am still happy with the results, but this time I will add a bit more consistency in the mix by using some of my brass selected buy size.

Thanks again like always for you informative and instructional responses.

 

[vaalpens]

I have the best luck with the 5.5-5.6 gr loads and worked on fine tuning them. OAL seemed to make a significant difference in two of my three 9mm's.

The third one is a PF-9 and I have no desire to shoot longshot loads out of it.
It stays at home. My OAL for my longshot loads is 1.125" but that varies from gun to gun.

I've had really good luck with it and plated bullets.

tightgroup, thanks for the information. My gutfeel is also that the 5.5/5.6 range is where I want to be, but I need to verify it. With Longshot I decided to go with the suggested OAL of 1.060" since Longshot supposedly works better with more pressure. I enjoy shooting and loading Longshot. I will be happy with a consistent less than 1.5" grouping at 15 yards.

 

[vaalpens]

Dont get lost in the matrix of 0.1g increments. If 5.4g shoots as well as 5.7, i would opt for 5.4 and call it a day. If you're still not satisfied, then go back and work on fine tuning a bit. For me, load development for pistol is rarely a "one and done" adventure but rather a part of the process.

Conservidave, thanks for the suggestion. That was my plan since I know I have seen this consistent grouping from Longshot over a wider weight range. This is why I posed question to get some ideas how other more experienced shooters approach a problem like this. Normally when I will pick one and move on, then I will also look at extraction pattern and how it feels. Good extraction, good feel, and decent grouping and I am happy.

 

[vaalpens]

When working on pistol loads, I like to do at least 20 or more of each.
That way I can shoot several groups and do re-shoots if needed.
I will usually shoot groups of 10 seated and supported, then shoot the remaining rounds offhand.

savagemann, thanks for the insight in how you approach it. I keep track of all my results and sort it by grouping. I then have a few selected loads that I have listed. Once I have a good feel about a load, then I normally load 25 of the load and do some unsupported shooting to get a better feel of it. If I still like it, then it is time to load up 50 of them and shoot them with other loads.

I will probably revisit my selected loads once I get a chrono to see if I need to make any more adjustments.

 

[gamestalker]

I'm don't really load plated, but I do load a lot of Longshot with jacketed and have encountered some sporadic accuracy. Longshot seems to do that when it's not building up enough pressure, it runs a bit lower psi as it is. I recently encountered a similar experience with .40 cal., in which bumping the charge up improved accuracy. My best results with 9mm and .40 also, have been up at, or very near max with LS.

Also, and maybe a contributing factor is, I like to seat mine rather long, this too seems to have a diminishing effect on pressures, IME.

GS

 

[vaalpens]

I'm don't really load plated, but I do load a lot of Longshot with jacketed and have encountered some sporadic accuracy. Longshot seems to do that when it's not building up enough pressure, it runs a bit lower psi as it is. I recently encountered a similar experience with .40 cal., in which bumping the charge up improved accuracy. My best results with 9mm and .40 also, have been up at, or very near max with LS.

Also, and maybe a contributing factor is, I like to seat mine rather long, this too seems to have a diminishing effect on pressures, IME.

GS

gamestalker, thanks for the comments. Your observation regarding pressures is one of the reasons why I decided to go with the shorter AOL. I basically went with the Berry's suggested AOL of 1.060" instead of trying to use a higher AOL. I don't see many flyers, just all the loads have similar grouping.

With 40S&W and Longshot I have not found a load yet that I can hang my hat on, but it is probably since I have been using a longer AOL and getting some inconsistency.

 

[Ex]

I have found LongShot to be an extremely accurate powder. I almost exclusively use it at 50-80% of rated load. Clean and accurate.

I "believe" that most powders with the exception of just a few, will give their best performance in the upper end of the range, LongShot included.

TiteGroup "might" be the exception to the rule in the powders I've used. But then again, when i use TiteGroup, I'm not counting on upper end velocity, I'm loading for accuary at the upper end of the fps scale with most rounds.

Exception to that rule might be with .357 mag ammo. It's one of the few rounds the LS does not give stellar speeds... but even at the midrange velocity that I get with it in .357 mag, it's extremely accurate in my GP100 with .357 mag rounds.

late at night, may have been said before, but that's my experience with LS, One of my top preferred powders... but then, we've talked about that!

Hope all is well Vaalpens... may have good news shortly! Give you a call as soon as I have some real info!

Ex

 

[vaalpens]

I have found LongShot to be an extremely accurate powder. I almost exclusively use it at 50-80% of rated load. Clean and accurate.

I "believe" that most powders with the exception of just a few, will give their best performance in the upper end of the range, LongShot included.

TiteGroup "might" be the exception to the rule in the powders I've used. But then again, when i use TiteGroup, I'm not counting on upper end velocity, I'm loading for accuary at the upper end of the fps scale with most rounds.

Exception to that rule might be with .357 mag ammo. It's one of the few rounds the LS does not give stellar speeds... but even at the midrange velocity that I get with it in .357 mag, it's extremely accurate in my GP100 with .357 mag rounds.

late at night, may have been said before, but that's my experience with LS, One of my top preferred powders... but then, we've talked about that!

Hope all is well Vaalpens... may have good news shortly! Give you a call as soon as I have some real info!

Ex

Ex, thanks for the information. Yes I know you and gamestalker like Longshot. I like it also, but it seems with Longshot there is no real bad load, so it is more difficult for me to pick a load to hang my hat on.

I think I have some idea which direction I want to go in with all the responses I have received. At least I have made up my mind that if I see similar results, then I would go with the higher charge just because of the characteristics of Longshot.

I have asked the same question from other members also when they indicated they see good or bad accuracy. Can you quantify what you mean by "extremely accurate"? I just want to get some idea what I can aspire to reach when everything comes together.

Good to know that good news could be on the way. Give me a call when you are ready.

 

[zaphar]

Not sure about 9x19mm, but with 9x23mm HS-6 works well with 90gr & 115gr, where as Longshot works well with 158gr.

Have you tried Longshot with a 147gr bullet?

 

[Dr.Zubrato]

one of my favorite loads is 125gr lead conical nose bullets, 1.08" OAL and 5.5-5.6gr longshot
excellent accuracy and velocity
dont have a chrono, but it rocks steel plates HARD
use em in my g26 and g19 ccw

 

[gamestalker]

I'll second EX's opinion regarding Longshot in the .357 mag., it just doesn't perform well in that cartridge, though it absolutely rocks in 38 spcl. at +P levels.

GS

 

[vaalpens]

Not sure about 9x19mm, but with 9x23mm HS-6 works well with 90gr & 115gr, where as Longshot works well with 158gr.

Have you tried Longshot with a 147gr bullet?

zaphar, thanks for the comments. I have never loaded HS-6 but it is on my list to get to at some time since it seems to be good in 357sig also.

I have never loaded Longshot with 147gr.

 

[vaalpens]

one of my favorite loads is 125gr lead conical nose bullets, 1.08" OAL and 5.5-5.6gr longshot
excellent accuracy and velocity
dont have a chrono, but it rocks steel plates HARD
use em in my g26 and g19 ccw

Dr.Zubrato, thanks for the information. Based on my results it looks like I will be in the same range. Looking forward to finalize my testing and loading up some quantity to really test them out in practice scenarios.

 

[Ex]

Ex, thanks for the information. Yes I know you and gamestalker like Longshot. I like it also, but it seems with Longshot there is no real bad load, so it is more difficult for me to pick a load to hang my hat on.

I think I have some idea which direction I want to go in with all the responses I have received. At least I have made up my mind that if I see similar results, then I would go with the higher charge just because of the characteristics of Longshot.

I have asked the same question from other members also when they indicated they see good or bad accuracy. Can you quantify what you mean by "extremely accurate"? I just want to get some idea what I can aspire to reach when everything comes together.

Good to know that good news could be on the way. Give me a call when you are ready.

I use it a lot in .40, .38spl, and .45, all with very pleasing results at about 2/3ds of book recipe. That's normally about where I run. Though the velocity is way down in the .357 mag, it's given me about as good of accuracy as anything I've used! Very accurate!