I have been in dust storms hunting in the desert southwest. Never had a problem shooting an AR15 in those conditions.
M-4's Jamming in the 'Stan
- Thread starter rc135
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As to sand in an AR 15.... In those ancient days when the M-16A1 was our only choice Grafenhowr training area in Germany well and truely gunked up rifles. During summer the red soil produced a fine red talc that got into about everything. Those not having a circumcision found it could in fact get into everything.
We found the most important thing we could do was to strictly enforce dust cover discipline. The stuff still got in and still contributed to stoppages, but that helped a lot. SOme guys actually stuck a strip of Hundred mile an hour tape over the joints between upper and lower reciever. Some guys used heavy grease to seel that area, but it teneded to melt and run off or in and make a mess. We made use of the muzzle covers as well. The old black ones shot right off and you could get minute of kneeling man at 50 meters accuracy atleast from that first shot. Don't know about the red ones. SOme guys took to using hunneredmile an hour tape on the magazine in the rifle with the widest part of the tape on the magazine and only a thin strip on the rifle around tha magwell. Stripping out the taped in magazine cleared the small width of tape from the rifle.
My biggest butt bighter was that even with the dust cover closed dust would work its way into the gas vents on the bolt carrier in the slot that worked the dust cover. This could make the forward and back and twisting motions of the bolt with in the bolt carrier less smooth and down right gritty. Of course in short order the bolt carrier was also gritty. I carried an extra go to hell rag just to whipe the carrier down with on occassion and a worn out chamber brush to do a quicky on the bolt hole in the front of the carrier while I was wipping of the bolt any time we went to 50-50 or 1n3. The issue "tooth brush" was invaluable as well for clearing mud or grit from the locking lugs of the bolt or barrel.
WIth the old petroleum lubes there were two schools of thought in dust, as little as possible or soaked. Seemed to me soaked picked up more crud but did not sound as bad when hand cycleing the action. No numbers on the differences but it seemed drier was better. YMMV
-Bob Hollingsworth
We found the most important thing we could do was to strictly enforce dust cover discipline. The stuff still got in and still contributed to stoppages, but that helped a lot. SOme guys actually stuck a strip of Hundred mile an hour tape over the joints between upper and lower reciever. Some guys used heavy grease to seel that area, but it teneded to melt and run off or in and make a mess. We made use of the muzzle covers as well. The old black ones shot right off and you could get minute of kneeling man at 50 meters accuracy atleast from that first shot. Don't know about the red ones. SOme guys took to using hunneredmile an hour tape on the magazine in the rifle with the widest part of the tape on the magazine and only a thin strip on the rifle around tha magwell. Stripping out the taped in magazine cleared the small width of tape from the rifle.
My biggest butt bighter was that even with the dust cover closed dust would work its way into the gas vents on the bolt carrier in the slot that worked the dust cover. This could make the forward and back and twisting motions of the bolt with in the bolt carrier less smooth and down right gritty. Of course in short order the bolt carrier was also gritty. I carried an extra go to hell rag just to whipe the carrier down with on occassion and a worn out chamber brush to do a quicky on the bolt hole in the front of the carrier while I was wipping of the bolt any time we went to 50-50 or 1n3. The issue "tooth brush" was invaluable as well for clearing mud or grit from the locking lugs of the bolt or barrel.
WIth the old petroleum lubes there were two schools of thought in dust, as little as possible or soaked. Seemed to me soaked picked up more crud but did not sound as bad when hand cycleing the action. No numbers on the differences but it seemed drier was better. YMMV
-Bob Hollingsworth
I had similar experiences in Graf with my A2. I did have stoppages with it at first - but I had blanks AND old 20 round magazines (I was in an HQ platoon - no one "cared" about me so I had to use what I could find).
I later found an old 30 round mag covered in about three years worth of mud in a 5-ton and "requisitioned" it. Once it was cleared of the dried mud and dirt both it and the rifle worked fine, in spite of the red-brown talcum powder dirt that really did get into everything.
It really only did take the most basic maintenance to keep my A2 working - just a 5minute scrubbing. I also kept the dust cover closed and a mag in because both helped to sort of plug the holes.
And even the much debated AK will fail with a bad mag and probably also with blanks.
I would bet that an AK might be more reliable, all things being equal (they never are).
I would also bet that I couldn't have shot expert with an AK (because I have never shot even the "best" AK clones as well. Only a VEPR K .223 ever matched the accuracy of an M-16 for me.
From what I understand, steps have been taken to make the M-4 even more reliable and you don't hear complaints about accuracy either.
Something to keep in mind - soldiers can break anything. If the M-4 is holding up that says quite a bit for it.
Soldiers also complain about almost anything. We complained when it was too hot, too cold, too wet, and too dusty. We complained about the food - it either tasted bad, there wasn't enough, or we had eaten too much. We complained about most of our equipment - too heavy, too easy to break, too many parts to lose, or it didn't work right. So if you aren't hearing complaints about the M-4, that says a WHOLE LOT for it too.
I later found an old 30 round mag covered in about three years worth of mud in a 5-ton and "requisitioned" it. Once it was cleared of the dried mud and dirt both it and the rifle worked fine, in spite of the red-brown talcum powder dirt that really did get into everything.
It really only did take the most basic maintenance to keep my A2 working - just a 5minute scrubbing. I also kept the dust cover closed and a mag in because both helped to sort of plug the holes.
And even the much debated AK will fail with a bad mag and probably also with blanks.
I would bet that an AK might be more reliable, all things being equal (they never are).
I would also bet that I couldn't have shot expert with an AK (because I have never shot even the "best" AK clones as well. Only a VEPR K .223 ever matched the accuracy of an M-16 for me.
From what I understand, steps have been taken to make the M-4 even more reliable and you don't hear complaints about accuracy either.
Something to keep in mind - soldiers can break anything. If the M-4 is holding up that says quite a bit for it.
Soldiers also complain about almost anything. We complained when it was too hot, too cold, too wet, and too dusty. We complained about the food - it either tasted bad, there wasn't enough, or we had eaten too much. We complained about most of our equipment - too heavy, too easy to break, too many parts to lose, or it didn't work right. So if you aren't hearing complaints about the M-4, that says a WHOLE LOT for it too.
You have to clean ANY weapon in the desert, and I mean ANY weapon. It is one of the most difficult environments for any weapon that is going to be used a lot. So, you must clean it a lot, and keep it clean.
Well i don't own an Ar-15 nor have i shot one, but the fact that israel readily accept M-16s over Aks and Galils should say something. Patrick Sweeney brings up this point in his book AR-15. He also states that it had little to do with money as well. Yes the m-16s are practically free, but the troops don't care. They just take what ever they can get thier hands on. Also all israelis serve in the army at some time in their life, so if the M-16 was garbage i don't think it would still be around.
Another story i have heard decides this debate for me. The famous Wild Bill used to unload and reload his cap and ball navy revolvers every morning (he slept with them loaded) He would also clean the every day too. He did this because he knew that his life depended on it. I am not bashing anybody and no, i have never been in a war or in the military, but it is important to treat your weapon with repect and care because guns seem to follow the golden rule very closely
Another story i have heard decides this debate for me. The famous Wild Bill used to unload and reload his cap and ball navy revolvers every morning (he slept with them loaded) He would also clean the every day too. He did this because he knew that his life depended on it. I am not bashing anybody and no, i have never been in a war or in the military, but it is important to treat your weapon with repect and care because guns seem to follow the golden rule very closely
Keep in mind that when the Israelis opted for the M16 over the Galil, they were desperate for weaponry and we were willing to provide it. That they no longer issue the Galil to front line troops isn't surprising either. Those things are 35 years old. It would be like us handing out M16A1's to our troops in Iraq or Korea. Lastly, they have decided to replace the M16, so it seems that they weren't 100% satisfied with it either and the gas system on the Tavor is similar to the one on the AK.
The Israelis kept making Galils after they basically adopted the M16/M4/CAR-15 as their primary combat weapon. They just did not issue them to front line infantry troops and such. I don't know if IMI was only building them for export after a certain point or something, but my recollection is that the Galil SARs my unit has for training, are IMI rollmarked late 90s or 2000 production.
If you would change the A1 to E1, I would fit number once exactly.
#4 Current troops that have been to the sandbox and had their rifles jam. Of course they are blamed for poor maintenance, whether it is true or not, so as to maintain the fantasy of reliable M16 type weapons.
I wish the kool aide drinkers would actually admit that there are legitimate questions as to the reliability of the M16 family. Instead of foolish admonishments, let the army prove the reliability of the M16 in a fair shoot off. So fare they have avoided it.
The fact that Israel is now developing a piston rifle to replace the some what unreliable M16 family of rifles, it is called the Tovar (IIRC). Even the Israeli’s have figured out that free and cheap M16’s aren’t worth it if they don’t go bang when you need them.
We have had congressional hearings and a shoot off ordered. Let’s find out whether the weak M16 bolt is from poor engineering or excessive heat being dumped on it by the gas system? Let’s get a better extractor, and stop having to jury rig a fix. Let’s get a rifle that isn’t officially needing armory designated PM at approximately 6000 rounds. While we are at it, let’s get a service round/caliber that 40 years after acceptance is still questionable about it’s ability to stop the bad guys. Oh yea, let’s see if it is reliable in combat. Now that would be radical.
Just wondering when the Army will have the deck stacked enough for the M16 family to actually follow the orders given by congress to ‘prove’ the M16 family can cut it.
Or is there another question. Does the Army know something a lot of folks here don’t?
It is actually easy to prove, the Army is choosing not too.
As to the cost of going to another service rifle/round. The cost as compared to most other weapon systems, is chump change. I hear excuses, not answers.
All I know is that good troops died in Vietnam because of this rifle, I know I bagged and tagged some of those Marines. I do know that troops are still dying because of this rifle. The Jessica lynch convoy is the immediate example that comes to my mind. There are others. A Lt I know came back and said when he goes over again he hopes he doesn’t get stuck with either a M16 or a M4.
If you want to enjoy a really extreme sport, try being in a firefight for your life with a rifle that isn’t working no matter what the internet says.
Go figure.
Fred
That's not even accurate. Gas goes into bolt carrier key, quite a ways off from the chamber. Carbon in the chamber gets there from the extracting empty, at most.
Direct impingement works fine in AR10, AR15 and MAS49. Piston uppers work better for suppression. Short stroke piston (such as used by SKS and HK36) has its own problem, such as warping under impact and eventually binding. M96 Robinson rifle had that problem. Long stroke piston (as used by AK) has its own problems, such as exaggeration of muzzle rise.
Another note -- sand in the magazines is a source of jams...but most NATO rifles use STANAG magazines, so they'd have identical issues.
There's a lesson there...
I went through GLCM training at Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson, AZ, in 1987. We had those craptastic M-16A1's and the even more craptastic M-60 (with blank adapters, no less). DM. Dusty Arizona desert. Fort Huachuca was where we did our dispersal training. We fired thousands of rounds of blank and live ammo and had no notable malfunctions for one reason: I was the squad leader and I was anal retentive about weapons maintenance. Other squads that weren't so disciplined had problems, but not my guys. I always made one thing clear, that weapons cleaning and gear maintenance occurred before chow, before sleep, before personal hygiene, before prayers for your momma and daddy, in short, daily.
Cleaning didn't have to be inspection, turn-in-to-the-armory quality, but it did have to be at least wipe everything down, scrape off the worst and make sure it functioned. 5-10 minutes tops is all it takes if done on a regular basis. I've been to the arctic, the jungle, the desert, and the mountains. It don't matter where you are, if you don't maintain your weapons you can't depend on them. Doesn't matter if it's an AK, H&K, AR or whatever. Put me in that class of people who say that if a junior enlisted expendable person (JEEP) has a weapon that won't work because it's dirty, there's an NCO somewhere who don't deserve his stripes.
HOW DARE you EVER say that an m-4 or ANY of it's variants could possibly jam!!! ARE YOU CRAZY MANG!!!
1911's don't ever jam either, and don't you forget it!
1911's don't ever jam either, and don't you forget it!
"As much as the M4 is a good weapon,"
No, it's a good gun, not a good weapon... there is a difference.
"Yeah, trust 19 year olds for their opinions on weapons systems."
BS, Sir. We trust 19 year olds to serve our country, if they have a bloody opinion about their weapon as observed under combat environments, we should pay attention.
"I have yet to hear a single soldier complain about their M4/M16."
I get tons of emails from Marines and US Army soldiers complaining all the time. Sorry you are not on their email list.
"I can't help wondering what you use a machete for in the 'Stan or Iraq."
Enforcing Islamic doctrine... they work well on necks.
No, it's a good gun, not a good weapon... there is a difference.
"Yeah, trust 19 year olds for their opinions on weapons systems."
BS, Sir. We trust 19 year olds to serve our country, if they have a bloody opinion about their weapon as observed under combat environments, we should pay attention.
"I have yet to hear a single soldier complain about their M4/M16."
I get tons of emails from Marines and US Army soldiers complaining all the time. Sorry you are not on their email list.
"I can't help wondering what you use a machete for in the 'Stan or Iraq."
Enforcing Islamic doctrine... they work well on necks.
Personally, I'm wondering exactly how much money it cost Heckler and Koch to have Tom Coburn bring this whole matter up in the first place. Was it a direct "donation", or some lobbyist whispering sweet nothings in his ear? Seriously, I wish I could follow the money on this one. If it was a matter of just switching over to a piston-driven M4, why are two of the weapons from HK? If the XM8 didn't make the cut last time around, why are they pushing it again? I think these are legitimate questions, especially since they were pushing for the test to take place before they could get the SCAR-L's in.
Any thoughts?
chieftain said:
When have we had congressional hearings lately? Tom Coburn refused to release his Senate hold on the new Secretary of the Army until the Army conducted this dust test. I am not aware of any recent hearings on the rifle though.
How about neither? The original M16 bolt was designed for a 20" rifle with a gas port at about 13". When you use the same bolt in a 14.5" rifle with the gas port at about 8", you increase the stresses on the bolt by about 150%.
The M4 bolt basically breaks in two places - at the cam pin hole and at the base of the locking lugs. This is because the cam pin is larger than it has to be (and so the hole in the bolt in bigger). The lugs breaking is due to a right angle increasing stresses and an undercut lug where the extractor is. You could call it poor engineering; but considering it wasn't designed for the role it is currently fufilling, I wouldn't.
As for heat, some piston rifle manufacturers have suggested that heat is an issue in the micro-cracking of the bolt; but none of them have offered actual evidence of this other than it doesn't happen in piston rifles (which have an entirely different operating system and don't necessarily have the same load increase). I'm skeptical of this suggestion because one of the places the bolt breaks (cam pin hole) is separated from the gas cycling the action by the gas rings. The second place (the bolt lugs) is subject to the same heat in either rifle.
Numerous people have introduced improved extractors for the M4. None of them have been adopted because they don't represent enough improvement over the existing black insert with heavier spring and O-ring; but they do cost a lot more.
Also, you are once again confusing an M4-specific issue with an M16 issue. The improved extractors are only necessary in the M4 series because the shorter gas system means that extraction begins earlier than it does in the M16. Because extraction begins earlier, brass has not shrunk away from the chamber walls at much and more bite is needed.
The M2 and M249 they had also failed. Perhaps there is something besides the weapon choice at play there?
tmpick said:
Sen. Coburn actually doesn't really have much of anything to gain from this near as I can tell. The H&K factory is in an entirely different state and in the past Tom Coburn has been very principled as a Congressman. I suspect it is more that he is a gun guy and really does want to make sure the troops have the best weapon available. I imagine H&K's ability to stack the deck comes more from their extensive influence within the Army than from Sen. Coburn.
Not sure who made it; but in a 4-page thread on the M4 jamming said:
As already noted, in the strict sense it doesn't. Direct impingement is as much a piston as any other system, it just places the piston in direct line with the bolt and uses the back of the bolt as the piston.
Second, anybody who has fired a roller-delayed blowback system (HK91, HK93) knows that they are quite filthy and will easily equal an AR for a dirty, hard-to-clean chamber. Yet we never see the same argument there. Why that is, I don't know but it has always puzzled me that people will criticize the AR for carbon in the chamber and praise the G3 for reliability in the same breath.
Really? I must not be, either. Just about everyone I know, especially those who've used the M4 in combat, are extremely happy with it.
Yep. Every weapon system available to Lynch's unit failed in combat. The same thing did not happen to, say, infantry units operating in the same environment. Hate to speak ill of the dead and such, but that situation suggests a lack of emphasis on basic soldier skills and the NCO and officer leadership (various other aspects of the event also suggest poor leadership) to see to it that those basic skills were applied with sufficient dilligence.
We have several folk right here who have recent combat experience who seem to find the M4 just fine, versus generic, unnamed people who've had all sorts of problems.
This jibes with my own experience as an infantry officer - take care of your weapon and it will take care of you.
This jibes with my own experience as an infantry officer - take care of your weapon and it will take care of you.
You have any FACTS!
You are accusing someone of some pretty heavy stuff. Or is this just the classic internet, because I think so, it is. SHEESH!
The fact is the 20 barrel version has issue’s too. Not as many as the M4, which is essentially an out of spec M3. Glad you agree.
The exact two places it happens on the M16 too. It just breaks more often on the M4. Glad you agree.
Not exactly. The heat is dumped into the action. On piston driven systems the heat is kept usually up some where behind the initial gas port, not anywhere near the bolt or chamber. So in this gas system the heat is on both sides of the bolt, the face, that all existing metallic cartridge systems have, and unique to the gas dump system on the back side of the bolt. Now in your world it may be different, but in my world heat kills mechanical devices too.
Particularly the abuse an automatic weapon in combat is often subject to, that heat can actually change the temper of steel too.
Personally I think if the bolt had been designed with less but heavier lugs, this may never have become an issue. I agree the hole in the bolt for the cam appears to big to me. I think a smaller cam and hole might solve this problem. But add to it the heat dumped by the operating system, both of these area’s of the bolt’s problem are in my opinion exacerbated.
Glad you agree with me on this one too. Any improvement would be just that, an improvement, god knows we are talking mega bucks here? These are the same folks that are buying armored trucks at a ¼ of million dollars a copy.
No these small improvements by DOD standards are Chump change. It is at best an excuse.
No, I am not. It is once again that on the M4 the problem that already existed, is exacerbated because of the issues you mention.
Actually these troops had no choice in the weapons they had with them. As to the guns, I bet they had not been trained on them.
Doesn’t change the fact that their personal weapons failed at the most dangerous time. In the face of the enemy. I never heard that happening in Vietnam, either before or after the change over.
Absolutely. But cleaning is not a major issue. Is cleaning weapons important, of course, very important. But that is that you clean them, use them, clean them, etc……..
Of course very few Delayed Roller systems are real accurate either. And Carbon in the chamber was only a critical issue with, un-chromed chambers. Not since.
Any carbon build up would be from outside the chamber to the gas port, the chamber is protected by the bolt from any exhaust gas. The lugs, and rest of the bolt and carrier are not.
Yes the G3 was much more reliable. Almost as reliable as an M14, but not quite.
Go figure.
Fred
ClickClickD'oh
Member
Soliders wrote letters complaining about their rifles? No way!
I wonder if they also wrote letters complaining about their boots, their uniforms, their LBE, their ruck, their pots, their e-tool, their chow and every other piece of equipment uncles sam told them to hump all over hell and gone.
I've known several soldiers who prefaced any conversation about a piece of issued gear with, "that P.O.S.", or "that G.D." That's just military life for you.
Welcome to the suck*.
* there is no gaurantee that the suck will actually suck
I wonder if they also wrote letters complaining about their boots, their uniforms, their LBE, their ruck, their pots, their e-tool, their chow and every other piece of equipment uncles sam told them to hump all over hell and gone.
I've known several soldiers who prefaced any conversation about a piece of issued gear with, "that P.O.S.", or "that G.D." That's just military life for you.
Welcome to the suck*.
* there is no gaurantee that the suck will actually suck
Most of the things I remember soldiers complaining about really did suck. Like the radios or the shelter halves or those cheap ass boots with the zigzag tread. You never heard anyone complain about the compasses or the goretex parkas though. That's because no one thought those sucked.
marksman13
Member
I only had one weapon malf in my tour. The selector switch on m M4 broke as I was clearing a house. I cursed the M4 for all it was worth for a long time and started carrying that big, heavy, cumbersome M21 and leaving the M4 locked up. Bottom line is that the M21 just wasn't versatile enough. I realized that a malf can occur in any design and carried a new M4 for the next 7 months without another problem. I kept my weapon as clean as humanly possible. Guys who didn't clean theirs had jams. It was a pretty straight forward observation.
Hey Chief, They had problems before and after chrome in Nam.
Like fine sand, they hate damp. More than a dozen shooters at
a weekend Appleseed shoot with rain before and during caused all
four that were there, to stop running starting the first afternoon.
The other three had feeding and extraction problems one by one.
All four chrome bored. The 22LR semiautos had simular problems.
The M-1s, M1As, bolts. and an FAL ran with no issues.
Got an Email from a friend who has a son with two tours with
the Marines who sent things that worked thumbs up, and that that did
not work so great. Comment on calibers was .223 and 9mm were
not reliable put down calibers. The two weapons with function
problems were the M16 family including the A4 modifications. Also
the SAWs that were bad as jams created partial disasembly to clear.
Any of the 30 calibers were praised along with 50 caliber stuff. Some
14s have trickle in and are guarded like gold
Like fine sand, they hate damp. More than a dozen shooters at
a weekend Appleseed shoot with rain before and during caused all
four that were there, to stop running starting the first afternoon.
The other three had feeding and extraction problems one by one.
All four chrome bored. The 22LR semiautos had simular problems.
The M-1s, M1As, bolts. and an FAL ran with no issues.
Got an Email from a friend who has a son with two tours with
the Marines who sent things that worked thumbs up, and that that did
not work so great. Comment on calibers was .223 and 9mm were
not reliable put down calibers. The two weapons with function
problems were the M16 family including the A4 modifications. Also
the SAWs that were bad as jams created partial disasembly to clear.
Any of the 30 calibers were praised along with 50 caliber stuff. Some
14s have trickle in and are guarded like gold
piston wouldn't fix it. problem is the bolt. it's too intricate, and has too much surface area. there are simpler designs that would fair better.
but, you folks are right, if you at least keep the bolt, upper, and star chamber clean, M16A2 or M4's are great weapons.
but, you folks are right, if you at least keep the bolt, upper, and star chamber clean, M16A2 or M4's are great weapons.
Jeremy2171
Member
Considering I'm a "user" of the said weapon over here in Iraq why am I not complaining? Probably because it's not an issue? While you are home on the internet arguing about how well my weapon works or "doesn't" work why don't you listen to the servicemen(women) who are over here AND USING THEM with no issues.
I've got over 5,000 rounds through my M4 and haven't broken ANYTHING. Matter of fact I'm so confident in its reliability that it gets minimal cleaning. Little secret for you.....if you don't lube up the bolt/upper with CLP/oil the carbon doesn't gunk up...it's just a dry powder that wipes out like dust....just like the sand that gets in there....same thing...no oil...no "sludge".
As for the Lynch debacle I got a friend that was there (Marine) and recovered the "jammed" 50cal. The weapon was brand new fully functional and unloaded. That same weapon later replaced a broken USMC 50 and fired several thousand rounds in the fight for Nasiriyah...
M249 and M240s run like a top as long as they are in good shape. The key word in "maintenance" is MAINTAIN. If the operator does not maintain their weapon do NOT blame the weapon.
As for the "Kool-Aid" I am NOT one of the drinkers. I'd prefer something in the 7.62 caliber myself but for where we are and what we do 5.56 is completely functional and will do the job. But there is nothing "WRONG" with the A4/M4 weapons platform.
Would you care for me to breakdown some of the major issues with the M2 50cals? Or how about the M1?? I carry an M4 and not worried one bit about its reliability or its knockdown power. Truth is I've never had anyone get up after I hit them. It's like real estate...location location location....hit them center mass and they will go down.
Flame on...I have a few days here before I leave again...
I've got over 5,000 rounds through my M4 and haven't broken ANYTHING. Matter of fact I'm so confident in its reliability that it gets minimal cleaning. Little secret for you.....if you don't lube up the bolt/upper with CLP/oil the carbon doesn't gunk up...it's just a dry powder that wipes out like dust....just like the sand that gets in there....same thing...no oil...no "sludge".
As for the Lynch debacle I got a friend that was there (Marine) and recovered the "jammed" 50cal. The weapon was brand new fully functional and unloaded. That same weapon later replaced a broken USMC 50 and fired several thousand rounds in the fight for Nasiriyah...
M249 and M240s run like a top as long as they are in good shape. The key word in "maintenance" is MAINTAIN. If the operator does not maintain their weapon do NOT blame the weapon.
As for the "Kool-Aid" I am NOT one of the drinkers. I'd prefer something in the 7.62 caliber myself but for where we are and what we do 5.56 is completely functional and will do the job. But there is nothing "WRONG" with the A4/M4 weapons platform.
Would you care for me to breakdown some of the major issues with the M2 50cals? Or how about the M1?? I carry an M4 and not worried one bit about its reliability or its knockdown power. Truth is I've never had anyone get up after I hit them. It's like real estate...location location location....hit them center mass and they will go down.
Flame on...I have a few days here before I leave again...
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