M1 Rifle Doubling (or full auto M1?)

[D.B. Cooper]

Took my Garand out to the range today as I have been itching to function check it in cold weather.

It was 3˚F today.

In the first two clips, it double fired once per clip. At that point, I stopped using the clips and shot another 30 rounds loaded singly with no problem. Gun worked well in every respect otherwise.

So what is causing this?

Ammo? Korean Surplus PS 82 Headstamp M2 Ball.
Cold Weather?
Lubrication? I recently field stripped the rifle (first time ever) as part of a stock replacement. I used the Brownell's youtube video 4 part series as a guide.

However, I used Amsoil multi-purpuse synthetic grease (competitor to Mobil 1) instead of Lubriplate. (Primarily because of a.) more waterproof and b.) broader operating temperature-as in low temp use.)

This is the first time I have ever lubricated anything in the trigger mechanism, and it's also the first time this gun has ever doubled. Coincidence? I wonder if I put too much grease in there or grease on a spot that isn't supposed to have grease.

Or maybe it's just craptastic milsurp ammo. (Which, by the way, shot just over MOA both from the clip and when loaded singly.)

Thoughts?

 

[hornet41]

"A double with an M1 or M1a is usually related to trigger control. The trigger MUST be held back after each shot and then "reset"! Also never "feather the trigger like you would on a hunting rifle. Three degrees!!!!! Sure you were wearing gloves. Its easy to double a M1 or M1a with improper trigger control. Thats my first guess.
'Mo

 

[D.B. Cooper]

"A double with an M1 or M1a is usually related to trigger control. The trigger MUST be held back after each shot and then "reset"! Also never "feather the trigger like you would on a hunting rifle. Three degrees!!!!! Sure you were wearing gloves. Its easy to double a M1 or M1a with improper trigger control. Thats my first guess.
'Mo

I just stumbled on a thread from 10 years ago on the same topic, and that was one of a number of theories postulated.

And I certainly won't try to deny that I might be the problem. I was wearing gloves. (Fleece with leather palm and fingertips. Not as thick as I should have been wearing, but they still fit in the trigger guard and had some dexterity.)

I was also shooting from a sand bagged bench rest with bags under the forearm and near the rear of the stock. I was basically shooting it like I would a scoped bench rest rifle.

But I'm still concerned I may have screw up the trigger assy the last time I had it apart. (Which would still be an operator error, not a gun error.)

 

[25-5]

After many years of bolt rifles I got an M1A. Double and triple taps I was told. I swore it wasn't possible. It was.

 

[Bart B.]

• Insufficient sear-hammer engagement when cocked will disengage from the shock of chambering a round. Seen that happen several times. Evidenced by a very short trigger second stage creep.

 

[cfullgraf]

I

I was also shooting from a sand bagged bench rest with bags under the forearm and near the rear of the stock. I was basically shooting it like I would a scoped bench rest rifle.

Shooting a Garand from a rest such as this and trying to "milk" the trigger can result in a double at times. This will result in a double bounce of the trigger under recoil causing the double.

Just to add to what hornet41 said.

Mechanical issues such as that mentioned by Bart B. are also possible but more frequently the double is caused by a shooter not completely familiar with all the idiosyncrasies of a Garand.

(I had a double or two when I first got my Garand, an M1 thumb or two as well)

 

[MartinS]

"This is the first time I have ever lubricated anything in the trigger mechanism, and it's also the first time this gun has ever doubled. Coincidence? I wonder if I put too much grease in there or grease on a spot that isn't supposed to have grease"

No grease in the trigger group. Degrease it and keep it clean. There are pdf files of GI manuals online, free.
http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/M1GarandGuide.pdf
http://www.stevespages.com/pdf/m1_garand-tm9-1275.pdf

 

[D.B. Cooper]

"This is the first time I have ever lubricated anything in the trigger mechanism, and it's also the first time this gun has ever doubled. Coincidence? I wonder if I put too much grease in there or grease on a spot that isn't supposed to have grease"

No grease in the trigger group. Degrease it and keep it clean. There are pdf files of GI manuals online, free.
http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/M1GarandGuide.pdf
http://www.stevespages.com/pdf/m1_garand-tm9-1275.pdf

That's it right there! We have a winner. The cmp link has a photo of the trigger group assembly with a giant red circle and the words "Keep Dry No Lube Here." I distinctly remember putting grease and/or CLP in that exact spot.

Easy fix.

Many thanks! (to everyone).

 

[Slamfire]

I was also shooting from a sand bagged bench rest with bags under the forearm and near the rear of the stock. I was basically shooting it like I would a scoped bench rest rifle.

I think the most likely cause was the rifle recoiling on rests, moving back, moving forward, and your trigger finger essentially bump fired the rifle.

Back in the day when shooters fired prone with a sling, the most common cause of doubling in Garands and M1a's was a trigger job going sour. Guys would get in there and stone the sears so they got the least amount of movement before hammer release. Well, the sear surfaces would wear, and the rifles would go, "chug, chug" and everyone knew that someone's rifle was doubling. Shooters back then knew to sling up tight, to the point you had to push the buttstock to your shoulder.

Now folks are shooting these things off benches. You have to hold a Garand tight if you are going to shoot off a bench.

I liberally applied grease to the sear surfaces, hammer, and I used LSA all over the things. I never had a problem due to grease, but, maybe the modern greases with diamonds and other fillers will cause problems. I am unfamiliar with Amsoil greases, if they are automotive greases, it ought to do fine.

 

[30Cal]

It's not supposed to be greased, but I doubt that had anything to do with it.

Hang onto the rifle like you're supposed to and don't squeeeeeeeeeeeeeze the trigger.

 

[Nature Boy]

I also believe that it's caused by mechanics of the shooter, not lube on the trigger

Same thing happened to me when I first got my M1A. I was shooting off of bags, didn't have the stock firmly into my shoulder and was milking the trigger. I had a double. Stopped, unloaded, did a function check, reloaded, and a few shots later had a triple.

Guys on the firing line started looking at me.

Packed up and went home and did some research and realized it was all me. Made the proper adjustment to my technique and have never had a double again. As slamfire says, you're basically bump firing.

Do a function check if you still think it might be the trigger. That will rule out the rifle.

See Step 4 on the link

http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/Rifle-Inspection-Checklist-v4.pdf

 

[Bart B.]

Shooters back then knew to sling up tight, to the point you had to push the buttstock to your shoulder.

One day at the local range, a huge guy was getting ready for a rapid fire string at 300 yards from prone. Put two rounds in his Garand then down to position then shot the first round. That 7.62 rifle doubled, so he just stood up. At the end of plugging at 300, all targets came up. His target had two spotters well centered in the 3" X ring about an inch apart. CPO Willie Martin was a good friend; bless his departed soul.

 

[Bart B.]

I also believe that it's caused by mechanics of the shooter, not lube on the trigger

Yes. The first thing to learn about pulling back 30 caliber service rifles' 4.5 pound triggers is to keep your trigger finger back hard until you and the rifle stops moving from recoil. Then ease it forward resetting the sear-hammer engement.

Especially when you're putting 24 rounds down range in 50 seconds from prone and all bullets go inside 12 inches at 600 then again at 500 yards in a "rattle battle" match.

I greased everything in Garand trigger groups except sear and hammer critical engagement points; they're dry. Even the trigger guard lugs that clamp the receiver down.

 

[hps1]

See Step 4 on the link

http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/Rifle-Inspection-Checklist-v4.pdf

Unfortunately photobucket will not let me edit pictures tonight so will do my best to describe trigger function unedited.

To help understand the workings of the Garand trigger, here is a trigger in which the sear is holding hammer cocked. Sear is on right side of hammer and holding it cocked by the front (right) hammer hook:



After rifle is fired, and as long as trigger is held depressed, the disconnect catches hammer and prevents it from following bolt down as rifle chambers next round. Disconnect can be seen holding hammer by back, or left hook on the hammer.
When trigger is released, the disconnect jumps forward quickly enough to catch rear hammer hook, preventing doubling.



You will notice the pointed "nose" of the disconnect is stopped against the rear of the trigger to control amount of contact between the disconnect and rear hammer hook above.

A common cause of doubling is failure of disconnect to catch the hammer due to improper trigger job, usually insufficient overlap of disconnect and rear hammer hook. This contact can be increased by placing a piece of emery cloth (grit toward the back of trigger) between the back of trigger and the disconnect and working back and forth a few times, removing enough metal from trigger to allow disconnect to travel forward a tad more, thus increasing contact w/hammer hook.

Spring tension on disconnect will provide sufficient pressure on emery cloth so as to take a hair off back side of trigger, but don't get too carried away, as this will also increase your trigger pull.

Tried to show proper placement of emery cloth above. Red side of cardboard represents cutting edge of emery cloth in contact w/back of trigger.

Regards,
hps

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Thanks hps. First thing I'm going to try is totally degrease the trigger assy and paying attention to my trigger pull technique. If it's still doubling, I'm try different ammo. If it's STILL doubling, THEN I'll try modifying or replacing parts.

 

[Nature Boy]

Do a function check first. You may not need to do anything to the trigger

 

[hps1]

Thanks hps. First thing I'm going to try is totally degrease the trigger assy and paying attention to my trigger pull technique. If it's still doubling, I'm try different ammo. If it's STILL doubling, THEN I'll try modifying or replacing parts.

Sounds like a plan. I worked over the trigger group above to break @ 4.5# so as to be legal for match shooting. Take a look at the center picture and you will see how much the disconnect should overlap rear hook. Top picture shows sear w/full engagement.
Have seen some butchered trigger jobs where the hammer hooks were shortened or angle changed on mating surfaces of sear/disconnect/hammer.

Regards,
hps

 

[hps1]

Do a function check first. You may not need to do anything to the trigger

+1

Regards,
hps

 

[MechAg94]

I get reminded how to handle my M1A or Garand on the bench occasionally. The best way I have found to avoid it is to hold it tight to my shoulder and/or use only a single point rest for the front of the rifle. You can also just single load the rifle if you want to shoot groups.

Shooting while standing or kneeling, I have never had an issue.

 

[Sunray]

Doubling in an M1 is caused by a broken or worn sear or one that stays open. Or the Hammer Spring housing isn't assembled properly. The former is fixed by replacing the trigger assembly or hammer spring housing. The latter by disassembling the trigger housing and reassembly it correctly.
M1 Rifle TM's and FM's are here, for free, in .pdf format. Note the need for the provided UN & PW. http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/
Anything that applies to shooting an M1A or M-14 style rifle doesn't really apply to an M1. M-14 are known to double if the shooter fails to follow through on the shot. That's releasing the trigger too soon and hitting the trigger again under recoil. Possible with heavy gloves though.
And 3F isn't cold. snicker. No grease in the whole trigger group either though.

 

[30Cal]

I get reminded how to handle my M1A or Garand on the bench occasionally. The best way I have found to avoid it is to hold it tight to my shoulder and/or use only a single point rest for the front of the rifle. You can also just single load the rifle if you want to shoot groups.

Shooting while standing or kneeling, I have never had an issue.

True; hard to screw up the technique when you get away from the bench.

 

[shootstraight57]

Took my Garand out to the range today as I have been itching to function check it in cold weather.

It was 3˚F today.

In the first two clips, it double fired once per clip. At that point, I stopped using the clips and shot another 30 rounds loaded singly with no problem. Gun worked well in every respect otherwise.

So what is causing this?

Ammo? Korean Surplus PS 82 Headstamp M2 Ball.
Cold Weather?
Lubrication? I recently field stripped the rifle (first time ever) as part of a stock replacement. I used the Brownell's youtube video 4 part series as a guide.

However, I used Amsoil multi-purpuse synthetic grease (competitor to Mobil 1) instead of Lubriplate. (Primarily because of a.) more waterproof and b.) broader operating temperature-as in low temp use.)

This is the first time I have ever lubricated anything in the trigger mechanism, and it's also the first time this gun has ever doubled. Coincidence? I wonder if I put too much grease in there or grease on a spot that isn't supposed to have grease.

Or maybe it's just craptastic milsurp ammo. (Which, by the way, shot just over MOA both from the clip and when loaded singly.)

Thoughts?

I have and FN49 that did the same thing during a cold snap. Ran off 3 rounds of 30-06 and shocked the hell out of me. As posted before I had grease where it does not belong in the trigger group.