Madness after girl, 4, draws gun pic at school

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Jim K said:
The Washington Post said it best: "The concept of civil and constitutional rights does not apply to those who choose to own guns and other deadly weapons."

Nuff sed.

Jim
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Is this serious? Did the Washington Post actually print this in something?? That's disgusting.

Surprised the media didn't make it out as a drawing of a fully automatic assault pistol with high capacity clips loaded with depleted uranium core baby-seeking hollow tips.
 
If I were Canadian, and that happened to me (and I didn't do anything wrong, didn't own a gun, etc), I would be sending my daughter to school with pictures of guns on her T-shirts, book covers emblazoned with guns, a gun book bag, etc. And that would be for starters..........................
 
Coming from a family of several retired and a couple of "quit-in-disgust" public-system educators, I say this:

Home-school your kids.
 
I am a little lost...

I am a little lost here! Are firearms illegal in Canada because to my knowledge they are not. So, this is a real shocker to me. This also should really wake a lot of people up because this is completely insane behavior. They are going to arrest a man and put his family through all of that just because they thought he had a gun. I think the people that proceeded to make this situation what it was need to have their heads examined because doing all of this over what a 4 year old drew on a piece of paper is just utterly stupid. If I was someone over there with any authority I would fire everyone with even the slightest bit of a hand in this just for the embarrassment. It makes them look stupid. I don't know about you guys but I had a pretty wild imagination when I was a kid and well everything on TV just made the imagination even stronger. I mean the kid even mentioned that the father used it to shoot monsters, clearly this is part of something she has imagined or something she was led to imagine based on some strategy her parents used to relieve her of the anxiety of monsters or it was because it was something she seen on TV or something. Seriously people, get a life.

Oh, and just for the record, I played with toy guns and played war when I was a kid and back then everything was just fine and as far as I know I turned out just fine as well. It is a perfectly normal phase for kids to have a wild imagination, its one of the things that makes being a kid so great. Anyways I don't know where to begin or end with this. These people are just ignorant, enough said. Maybe they should get an education or something because clearly the ones involved here need some help.
 
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I remember one day in high school, just a few years back mind you, that I had gotten in trouble for doodling on a piece of paper. It was a drawing of a gun design I had in my head. Some student in the class went up front and told the teacher that I was worrying them, he called the school resource officer, (LEO) and I was questioned for about 6 hours as to why I was drawing a firearm.

Sat there and told the cop and the principle that I was an avid firearms enthusiast, and that, at the time,stalky owned three rifles. Of course, since my car was on school property, it was searched. The didn't find nothing.

I was sat down and questioned, was asked numerous times if I was even thinking about shooting up the school, each and everytime I told them no, and that they needed to quit thinking up these fairy tales that all gun owners are bad.

When they were done asking their stupid questions I informed them both that if I were harrassed with that issue again, I would file a law-suit. Well, I was never asked about it again, managed to find out who expressed concern to the teacher, and ended up taking her along to the range a week later. Now she's got a few firearms of her own and we go and it the range when we can afford to.

My point being? It happens. And it will continue to happen if we let the Brady Bunch an Bloomberg have their way.
 
I am a little lost here! Are firearms illegal in Canada because to my knowledge they are not.
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All firearms in Canada are illegal.

I'm Canadian and I feel I am well versed in the laws pertaining to firearms owners. Let me explain:

First of all, our Charter of Rights and Freedoms does not guarantee any property rights. It does not guarantee protection from the state taking your property without compensation. It does not even guarantee against unreasonable search and seizure.* (nothwithstanding clause)

Now, Bill C-68, (The Firearms Act) was a bill introduced by the Liberal Majority Gov't.
The Firearms Act makes all civilian ownership of firearms in Canada a criminal code offense (illegal). There is an exception granted for holders of a Possession and Acquisition License but only while the PAL is valid. If the holder of the PAL fails to renew or the renewal is denied, you lose your ability to own firearms and your property without compensation. Remember, firearms ownership is illegal unless you have a PAL.

The Chief Firearms officer can revoke any (or indeed all) PALs without notice at his own discretion for any reason.

The Firearms act also gives the RCMP (national police force) the ability to reclassify firearms based on whether they think (in their opinion) it is a derivative of another prohibited firearm. This is done without an act of parliament or input of any elected official. It is an act of the police. Only 2 months ago, the RCMP reclassified the AP-80 to prohibited status. Owners had to turn in their property within 30 days with no compensation or face jail time. These firearms are registered so the RCMP knows who has them. The AP-80 vaguely LOOKS like an AK47 but shares no parts. It's a 22lr blow-back operated plinker. The RCMP said it was a derivative of the AK47 which is a prohibited firearm.

The firearms act also gives sweeping powers to the CFO and his agents (the police) to enter and search your home if they have reasonable grounds to believe that there may be 10 or more firearms (registry) - OR - if you simply have a restricted firearm. (restricted registry is not part of the long gun registry and will remain).

This is a nation where what amounts to being laws are made by the police and not the elected government. Is that freedom? In my opinion, all laws and classification should be done through an act of parliament which involves debate and hearings and voting by elected officials, not done in secret by the police.

It gets more ridiculous from there but I believe I'm already sufficiently embarrassed of my nation.

Sadly, the liberal 'social re-engineering' of Canada that has already happened is happening in the USA right now...

Good luck brothers - I hope you have better luck than we did.
 
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I should ad that there are proud freedom loving Canadians.

When c68 was being passed by a majority gov't, thousands of law abiding canadians sportsman and shooters marched on parliament hills while RCMP 'snipers' stood ready on rooftops...

import/export records show there are over 21 million firearms in Canada not counting those made domestically by cooey and lakefield (savage).

There are only about 7 million firearms in the national firearms registry.

This means there are 14+ million (2/3) unregistered firearms in Canada.

That's massive civil disobedience of an unjust law.

These are brave people because owning a firearm with a PAL and owning an unregistered firearm is a CC offense carrying a jail sentence.
 
Was this guy not allowed to have a gun? I can see that they may have grounds to search if he was specifically restricted to own a firearm.
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In Canada you need a Posession Only License (POL) or Posession and Aquisition License (PAL) to posess a firearm.
A quick check would tell the police if he had one.

My assumption is that he didn't which sent up a red flag.

Regardless the actions of the police and everyone involved was over the top.
 
Further, for your information, The Firearms Act was worded vaguely intentionally so that as many people as possible could be charged with paper offenses which result in a criminal record and lifetime firearms prohibition.

For example, the FA states that a non-restricted firearm must be kept with a 'secure locking device' -OR- be kept in a container that is 'not easily broken into'. Of course, they don't define what 'secure' means or what 'not easily broken into' means.

That means that when police (particularly in Ontario) are called to the scene of a home burglary where firearms have been stolen, the victim, the owner of the firearms, is charged with a cc offense called 'unsafe storage' as a matter of course.

The reasoning being that if the firearm was stolen, then where it was contained was 'easily broken into'.

Even if the victim is acquitted in court, they still must incur massive time and financial hardship to defend themselves.

Further, the act says that ammunition must be stored 'seperately' from the firearm but doesn't define what seperately means often resulting in charges of unsafe storage.



The Liberal agenda is to make the barriers of entry to firearms ownership so high and the risks so great, that each generation has fewer and fewer owners.
 
The Bill of Rights here is being slowly chipped away as well. Obamacare is a power play to establish a precedent to directly violate the Constitution. Basically they coming after the Catholics now, who is next? In Obama,s campaign he mocked the Midwest with our God's and Guns. Americans laughed and voted him in. Is this how it worked in Germany?
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And after they do that, those Nazi commie liberals are going to put people in FEMA death panel camp gulags.

The indoctrination by the schools against the 2nd amendment is just the tip of the iceberg, the rest must be illuminated before FREEDOM becomes but naughti.
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No, substitute liberal for Nazi. The Nazis confiscated the guns of their victims prior to the concentration camps. And so far the liberals have been the leaders in trying to destroy our 2nd Amendment rights.
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No, substitute liberal for Nazi. The Nazis confiscated the guns of their victims prior to the concentration camps. And so far the liberals have been the leaders in trying to destroy our 2nd Amendment rights.
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DeathOfDiscussion.jpg
 
So ultimately this was a case about a father being questioned and searched based on the drawing and statements of his daughter indicating the likely commission of the crime of illegal weapons possession. This is really a news story that happens to have guns involved. We wouldn't be having this discussion if she had leaked information about her father being involved in other criminal violations. We wouldn't be having the usual circle pat about the dangers of education in that case. Right now it's all about personal identity moral panic.
almherdfan said:
I am offended by all specious statements. They just make things worse.
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Yes.

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That. Is. Just. Crazy.

When I started reading I thought this was must be in Kalifornistan. :)
 
What happened to probable cause? Is that a concept up north? Suppose the daughter had drawn mommy and daddy sitting at the table cooking drugs on a spoon? Would that have been enough probable cause to kick the doors in? Or maybe the next door neighbor THINKING somthing illegal is going on next door. Would that be enough for an arrest or warrant? If you dream a crime, is that some kind of conspiracy? Perhaps writing a crime novel is enough probable cause to think the writer actually DID the crime...............
 
As a public school librarian and a father of a public school student, stories like this certainly concern me. There are certainly stories of schools here in the states that overreact to drawings of this nature (Some have even been posted in this thread.). However, in my part of the world this could not happen (at least not yet).

This fall, my fourth grader wrote her research paper on the history, merits, and functionality of the AR platform. She regularly debates with her third grade teacher whether or not a ten year old should be allowed to buy a firearm (Her former teacher concedes that she is probably responsible enough to be afforded the privilege.). The HS library were I serve as a librarian maitains several subscriptions to outdoor magazines that regularly feature firearms of all sorts. We have hunting and firearms books in our collection. Many of my colleagues (including administrators) are firearms enthusiasts, and I have taken several newbies out shooting.

Please do not paint all public schools with the same brush, and get involved in your local school boards, actively promoting logical policies relating to firearms. We can keep this tide from turning, just as activists from around the country have strengthened laws protecting our rights in alomost every state.
 
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SharpsDressedMan said:
What happened to probable cause? Is that a concept up north? Suppose the daughter had drawn mommy and daddy sitting at the table cooking drugs on a spoon? Would that have been enough probable cause to kick the doors in? Or maybe the next door neighbor THINKING somthing illegal is going on next door. Would that be enough for an arrest or warrant? If you dream a crime, is that some kind of conspiracy? Perhaps writing a crime novel is enough probable cause to think the writer actually DID the crime...............
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That's some interesting false equivalence to a neighbors suspicion, in addition to the red herring of thoughtcrime. It wasn't the neighbor thinking that something illegal was happening, it was the daughter saying it. Would the admission of the daughter that her father was committing another crime like domestic violence be insufficient to start an investigation? Why or why not?

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GLOOB said:
Based on this drawing, the school could have easily jumped to the conclusion that the household was in possession of a... television? Or are guns banned from Canadian television, too?
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I'm a per-issue kind of guy, but on average, I am surely left of center. But as I read the opening of the OP post, I was disgusted. To act in such a way based on a drawing of a four year old is outrageous. But I'm not sure we're getting the full story here. In fact, the drawing may be a red-herring. Reading further down, it seems that the girl may have discussed her father leaving guns around the house. If that is true, they had no choice but to act. Should they have been warned, by anyone, of such a situation, not acted, and then a 'bad thing' happened, they would be liable and likely for good reason.
Now, acting like the father is guilty until proven innocent is still outrageous. But, and again, conjecture based on sentences in the article, they likely should have given the parents a call (irrespective of the drawing) and/or asked the local LE's to make a quick trip out their way to check it out. No harm, no foul.
And BTW, my comments (above) are based on projecting this situation in a U.S. public education/home environment. Not informed about Canadian law.
Oh, and the comments about teachers being liberals and that's why the education system is falling apart? That's just hooey.
 
They should be locked away - the Principal and the Police, that is. A terrible travesty of involving several individual rights.
 
The credibility of a four year old saying ANYTHING is cause for pause. If the authorities in Canada, the US, or ANY country want to investigate further, that is fine. However, with respect to innocent until proven guilty, you do not round up suspects, throw out due process, and arrest without some kind of probable cause, and the word of a 4 year old, or fourth grader even, does not carry the same weight or cedibility, say, as that of a thorough police investigation. It would be nice to kick in doors and always catch people in the act of wrongdoing, but those "certain inalienable rights" sometimes get in the way of unverified accusations, privacy, presumption of innocence, etc. There is also the need to establish the credibility of any confidential informants, etc, before warrants are issued. Did we hear anything about the police going to the magistrate and obtaining a seach warrant based on the girl's statement? No. Did we hear of any EVIDENCE that would hold up in a court in hand before ARRESTING the father. No. Do you really want a society that operates that way when it comes YOUR turn under the obviiously "broken" microscope of bureaucratic scrutiny and misguided police intrusion?
 
Neverwinter said:
So ultimately this was a case about a father being questioned and searched based on the drawing and statements of his daughter indicating the likely commission of the crime of illegal weapons possession. This is really a news story that happens to have guns involved. We wouldn't be having this discussion if she had leaked information about her father being involved in other criminal violations. We wouldn't be having the usual circle pat about the dangers of education in that case. Right now it's all about personal identity moral panic. Yes.

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He was put in handcuffs and strip searched based on a picture by a four year old and a statement about "bad guys" and "monsters". Are you really defending that? Really?
This is a firearms forum, so yes, we make a big deal about it because it is firearms related. There was a case in SC where a girl was sent home with a note from the State Food Police because her home made lunch wasn't healthy enough. That wasn't brought up as a thread here because it wasn't firearms related. The fact is THERE WAS NO CRIME. Even the child's fantasy statement would be thrown out of court if used for probable cause. Any first year law student would be an idiot to try to defend the state in this case. Any police academy graduate knows this wouldn't be grounds for arrest.
So what year are you in law school?
 
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