Man pulls CCW to stop a fight

[Froggy]

Witness says he started a fist fight, then pulled a gun when he started losing. The "victim" (man threatened with the gun) ran off -- ending the fight and leaving no one to press charges.

http://www.svherald.com/articles/2006/12/06/local_news/news6.txt

Holiday shopping tempers boiled over Sunday afternoon at Wal-Mart when a man pointed a gun at another during a fist fight in the store, according to Sierra Vista police.

About 5:25 p.m., between the store’s sporting goods and toy sections, two men began a verbal altercation that led to physical blows, Officer Mary Chatham said. During the altercation, one man pointed a gun at the other, she said. The man with the gun possessed a concealed firearm permit, Chatham said. He told police he produced the weapon because his opponent, who was larger than him, had taken him to the ground, the officer said.

The man with the gun suffered a black eye and a bloody nose, she said.

The man who was reportedly threatened with the gun did not remain on scene until police arrived, and his identity as a potential victim remains unknown to police, the officer said.

“For whatever reason, he decided not to stay,” she said.

Wal-Mart personnel detained the man with the gun until police arrived, but declined to pursue criminal charges against him.

With no victim on hand and no charges pursued by Wal-Mart management, the investigation is stalled indefinitely, Chatham said.

Police awaited surveillance video of the incident from the store Tuesday afternoon.

“We could’ve pursued charges against him if we had a victim,” Chatham said. “According to an eyewitness, he (the man with the gun) threw the first punch.”

The man told police the other man threw the first punch, Chatham said.

So much for the Christmas spirit.

 

[Manedwolf]

I would have pressed charges anyway. They can't do reckless endangerment?! That sort makes all CCWs look bad.

 

[mnrivrat]

One witness says he threw the first punch - he says the other guy did ? I will wait for the video to pass judgment.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

If you're carrying a gun, you just cannot get into a fight. Sometimes you cannot help being attacked, but a fight is something you had some part in starting, almost by definition. Can't do it. You start to lose, and the other guy can get a hold of your gun, which you cannot allow, requiring you to draw before he gets to it. Avoid fights at all costs. Egos will just have to suffer sometimes.

 

[wacki]

If you're carrying a gun, you just cannot get into a fight. Sometimes you cannot help being attacked, but a fight is something you had some part in starting, almost by definition. Can't do it. You start to lose, and the other guy can get a hold of your gun, which you cannot allow, requiring you to draw before he gets to it. Avoid fights at all costs. Egos will just have to suffer sometimes.

This is why CCW permits should require a basic training laws. Why the hell is nobody pushing this? It would make us look better. We should be pushing for legislation like this.

 

[mp510]

If anything, they should have pursued breach of peace charges against him, and reckless endangerment wouldn't be far fetched either.

 

[arthurcw]

This is why CCW permits should require a basic training laws. Why the hell is nobody pushing this? It would make us look better. We should be pushing for legislation like this.

Simple. Because today it’s “you need 8 hours of classroom study.” Tomorrow it’s, “one week is not too much to ask.” Then after some A-hole does something stupid with his CCW it’s, “well, I guess we need them to have several weeks of yearly training.” Then some nut job does something else stupid and it’s, “Well we just couldn’t trust those civilians with guns. We need to take them away now.”

It’s incumbent on the License holder to act correctly and get the training (s)he needs. If they don’t and do something dumb, punish THAT license holder NOT all of them. If you are in a state that doesn’t requires basic classes, then count yourself blessed that you still live in a state that assumes you can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Please don’t look for Big Brother to solve everything with more laws. What this guy did was already against the law in most states that have Concealed Carry. If he escaped punishment this time because the one who can press charges ran, then that sucks. But it’s hardly a reason to ask the legisgators to ride in a “fix” everything.

 

[1911Tuner]

Fightin' and Scufflin'

If a man's gonna go armed, one of the things that he's gotta check at the door is his temper.

"And if there's somethin' that you've gotta gain or prove by winnin' some silly fight...well, okay...I quit. I lose. You're the winner."

--Bobby Bare-- (The Winner)

 

[Edmond]

This is why CCW permits should require a basic training laws.

I agree with that. I also believe a psychological and personality exam should be administered as well. I dunno, maybe I'm biased because I see a lot of guys who want to carry guns to show off, act like cops or just be macho.

 

[springmom]

I disagree strongly with the idea that more mandated training is the answer. The ANSWER is that this bozo should have kept his temper. What on earth could you POSSIBLY find in a Walmart that's worth fighting over anyway????? C'mon.

Psych tests are expensive (you do realize that somebody with an advanced degree has to be employed to score and interpret the thing, yes?) and invasive, and to legislate their use is to buy into the utterly unproven idea that they are predictive. They screen for things like schizophrenia, paranoia, depression, anxiety...not being a jackass, that one's not in the DSM-IV.

The guy should be charged for brandishing or reckless endangerment or something, but MORE LAWS are NOT the answer. Punish the idjit that did the behavior, not the rest of us. :banghead:

Springmom

 

[1911Tuner]

Training

Gonna sidle up to springmom on this one. If we mandate that everybody needs to have training and mental evaluations before issuance of a CCW permit...where does it end? How long before a denial can be pushed on us for the least suspicion that we're "just not right in the head" or because we didn't pass the training course with a 4.0 average?

There are all kinds of backdoor ways to infringe the right to keep and bear arms. All it takes is to let'em get a foot in that door. Hand the government a power to deny you a basic right, and they'll eventually deny that it ever existed in the first place. They've been trying to do that for years...deny it...and we're facing yet another assault on 2A in the near future. One that promises to be the worst one thus far.

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms...Shall not be infringed."

 

[grimjaw]

If by means of a psychological evaluation they can show beyond a shadow of a doubt that you cannot be safely allowed to carry a concealed firearm, what's to prevent them from locking you up as a danger to society? What's to prevent employers to using that against you in certain jobs? I don't mean people who are obviously mentally ill, but your average joe who hits a few points in the negative on a personality test.

Soumds like a slippery slope to me.

Back to the OP's topic: sounds like the guy should have avoided the argument and most definitely the fight, but without knowing more details it's hard to say.

jm

 

[Manedwolf]

This is why CCW permits should require a basic training laws.

Whose side are you on, Sarah Brady's?

Training should NOT be mandatory. Some people properly got an education on how to be safe and how to shoot from a parent. A lot of people did, in fact.

Secondly, training costs money, and often requires spare time. Some people have neither, and to declare that someone struggling to feed their family can't have a CCW because they can't afford the $150 for the course and have no spare time to take it is downright un-American.

I suggest thinking such a suggestion through more, next time, and think of what it'd mean to people who live in different situations than you do.

 

[carterbeauford]

I don't think training would have helped this guy.

I have backed off from a fight while carrying, had little to do with whether or not I was trained. We have a duty to be professional, punching people is not being professional.

 

[TC-TX]

This is why CCW permits should require {a} basic training {laws}.

I agree - CCW/CHL education prior to licensing is the best way to prevent good people from making bad decisions... It can keep you out of Jail AND it can Save Your Life...

However - in this case - if the CCWer was actually the originator of the incident, I am not sure it would help in this case... Idiots will be idiots regardless of training experienced.

Ag Assault... book him.

 

[thexrayboy]

I am willing to bet we don't know, and may never know the whole story. The man with the CCW states the other man started swinging first. A witness apparently says the gun holder swung first. Hopefully video will be available to help sort this out. Just because the witness stated the gunholder swung first doesn't make it true.

Just like fouls in the NBA the ref often misses the initial action that precipitates the foul and only sees the response thus giving the foul to the wrong player. And as a parent of more than one child I am fully aware that often I miss the action that instigated an incident between the two kids and only see the reaction. The same could be said for this incident. The initial blow could have been launched by the person who fled and the gun holder was forced to respond. This may be why the person in question fled, he knew he started it and was at fault and didn't want to hang aroung to face questioning.

 

[M2 Carbine]

This guy had a problem. From the little information I'm not sure what.


About the training thing.

Before I took the TX CHL class I was outspoken against almost everything about it, from the cost to the mandatory 2 day training (it's now one day).

After all, I had 8 years USMC and 4 years ARMY time. I've been shooting since the late 1950's. I have my own shooting range and shoot at least several times every week.
And I was even a ex LEO.
Why the heck should someone like me have to take that Mickey Mouse concealed carry course?


Well now I'm 100% in favor of mandatory training.
I thought I knew it all, but I didn't, and from the stupid questions and statements that I see LICENSED people ask on gun forums it's obvious that they never had any training and really shouldn't be carrying a gun until they get some.


IMO, EVERY adult citizen has the right to carry but along with that right comes the responsibility to be trained and knowledgeable and capable in the use, safety and laws connected with carrying and using the gun.
The problem is most people just WILL NOT do what it takes to gain the knowledge and training on their own.

Not only, at least a one day class, but I would require that to renew a carry license proof of some amount of shooting would have to have been done every year.
It's amazing how many people there are that don't shoot EVEN ONCE before having to renew their license.
Do you really want someone pulling a gun around you that has that lack of interest in staying proficient?

Yeah, everyone should have the right to carry, but they don't have the right to carry around me if they are ignorant of the laws, gun safety and would stand a better chance of hitting a target at 10 yards if they threw the gun at it.

 

[TC-TX]

...Training should NOT be mandatory.

Sorry Manedwolf - Got to disagree here...

...for the same reasons that you would not want your Police or Sheriff's Department or State troopers, or Commissioned Security Officers or Protection Officers or investigators to carry firearms without proper training.

I support training for all of the same reasons that I want Pilots and Physicians and Surgeons and Drivers and others to be required to pass a minimum level of competancy... It is a serious endeavor and I prefer that folks take the time to learn AT LEAST minimum levels of competency.

Yes - a few folks have received the mechanics of firearms training as we grew up - But MOST Have Not.

Carrying a firearm is MORE than just learning the mechanics of shooting... it is about The Use Of Force laws in your State... It is about LEGAL Aspects of carrying in your sate... it is about Communication and non-violent Conflict resolution... Among MANY other things...

No one in his right mind would advocate any paid professional being issued a commission to carry a firearm without proper training and preparation.

I hold the same thought for individuals who choose to carry. It is a HUGE Responsibility and Liability to carry a firearm.

The VAST MAJORITY of folks who come to my class for CHL training have No Experience with handguns AT ALL. (I do not consider shooting a handgun as a youth once on GrandPa's place as experience).

Armed Citizens need to Know what the responsibility is and be prepared (according to State Law) to accept what goes with it.

The few dollars one spends to obtain training is a Great Insurance policy against the ENORMOUS Price of illegitimate or illegal carry practices one could potential demonstrate in various carry conditions.

I do not think it is a high standard - only a minimal standard of demonstrated competency.

I am OK with that... YMMV...

Stay Safe!

 

[Manedwolf]

IMO, EVERY adult citizen has the right to carry but along with that right comes the responsibility to be trained and knowledgeable and capable in the use, safety and laws connected with carrying and using the gun.
The problem is most people just WILL NOT do what it takes to gain the knowledge and training on their own.

So you'd be in favor of expanding government to be bigger and more intrusive, to use taxpayer dollars to FORCE people to undergo such training by the government? They won't do it, so BIG GOVERNMENT must do it for them.

How...honestly leftist an idea.

 

[carterbeauford]

I agree with Manedwolf if only in principle, if mandatory training starts, where does it stop?

This is an isolated incident and things are fine as they stand. Again, if you are willing to start a fight when carrying, lack of training is not your primary problem.

 

[TC-TX]

Well now I'm 100% in favor of mandatory training.

I thought I knew it all, but I didn't, and from the stupid questions and statements that I see LICENSED people ask on gun forums it's obvious that they never had any training and really shouldn't be carrying a gun until they get some.

IMO, EVERY adult citizen has the right to carry but along with that right comes the responsibility to be trained and knowledgeable and capable in the use, safety and laws connected with carrying and using the gun.
The problem is most people just WILL NOT do what it takes to gain the knowledge and training on their own.

Not only, at least a one day class, but I would require that to renew a carry license proof of some amount of shooting would have to have been done every year.
It's amazing how many people there are that don't shoot EVEN ONCE before having to renew their license.
Do you really want someone pulling a gun around you that has that lack of interest in staying proficient?

Yeah, everyone should have the right to carry, but they don't have the right to carry around me if they are ignorant of the laws, gun safety and would stand a better chance of hitting a target at 10 yards if they threw the gun at it.

Well Said M2 Carbine

Semper Fi!

 

[Manedwolf]

IMO, EVERY adult citizen has the right to carry but along with that right comes the responsibility to be trained and knowledgeable and capable in the use, safety and laws connected with carrying and using the gun.

That statement is so self-contradictory it makes my head hurt.

You have the right to...!....provided you fulfill these government requirements, and take that course, and fill out that form, and pay that tax, and meet these criteria, bribe that bureaucrat and make lots of phone calls to .gov zombies who could care less as long as they get their pensions. Because the government's job is to make SURE you are not a danger to yourself or others before you've committed any crime or done anything wrong, right?

Yeah. You...have the right to.....?

What happened to JUST THE SECOND AMENDMENT, period? Are Vermont and Alaska the only states who understand? You are an American, therefore you can be armed! That's it!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

This is why CCW permits should require a basic training laws. Why the hell is nobody pushing this? It would make us look better. We should be pushing for legislation like this.

It's Liberal thinking like that which causes good, law abiding people to have problems exercising their rights!!! The Liberals love to punish everyone for the bad deeds of a few instead of dealing with the few who cause the problems!!! That's right, lets make another restrictive law but not just for bad guys, but for everyone. DAM LIBERALS love to blow an isolated incident out of proportion because they hate guns and see an opportunity to add restrictions. This makes me very angry.

 

[TC-TX]

Again, if you are willing to start a fight when carrying, lack of training is not your primary problem.

TOTALLY Disagree!!!

You obviously do not understand the intent of the training - do you?

Among other things, it is about educating some as to OPTIONS... OPTIONS when faced with a situation... Use Of Force Options...

It is about DE-ESCALATION...

We do not know WHO started the atercation in this case, but it is pretty clear no one was trying to de-escalate the situation...

YES - Training is EVERYTHING when carry a weapon...

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

one thing

you can't train attitude
some folks could takeclasses for years and never get it others know right away

and its hard to tell which is which. until something like this happens