Market for iron sited bolt guns/quasi-military design?

[THE OUTPATIENT]

Another poster raised this issue, and I'm just doing some basic research here - would this configuration of bolt gun would have a cross-sectional appeal to shooters here in the USA?

We have HR-1022 looming, and some guys might want an effective bolt action in a sort of military confguartion...let me throw this out:

The gun is chambered in 308, 30-06, 762x54R, and .270.

The barrel is a fluted heavier (not heavy) barrel than stock hunting rifles, and is 22-24 inches long. It is free floated forward of the reciever

A muzzle brake sits on the end.

The stock is hard plastic, and is double pillar bedded, of the thumbhole variety. It is Mannlicher style, and completely covers the barrel through to the muzzle

The action is Mauser-style.

Magazine capacity is 10 rounds, and can load from either US or Combloc strippers. The magazine is detachable.

Sites are of the AR-15A2 style, but calibrated for each particular caliber, and are of the folding variety. The reciever has a Weaver rail system.

OP

 

[thereisnospoon]

I think you are correct in your thinking that a gun like this would go far, however, most people, especially shooters-especially military style rifle owners-believe HR1022 will simply go away-just like they thought the AWB I would never pass through the Senate.

On to your specifications:

The gun is chambered in 308, 30-06, 762x54R, and .270.

Definately .308 or 30-06 caliber, but would consider other chamberings after initial sales proved viable.

The barrel is a fluted heavier (not heavy) barrel than stock hunting rifles, and is 22-24 inches long. It is free floated forward of the reciever

Too long and too heavy. No longer than 20" and standard military config and taper.

A muzzle brake sits on the end.

That would be nice.

The stock is hard plastic, and is double pillar bedded, of the thumbhole variety. It is Mannlicher style, and completely covers the barrel through to the muzzle

Synthetic for sure, but standard fair will appeal to more shooters and not scare the sheeple...

The action is Mauser-style.

Excellent choice

Magazine capacity is 10 rounds, and can load from either US or Combloc strippers. The magazine is detachable.

Excellent

Sites are of the AR-15A2 style, but calibrated for each particular caliber, and are of the folding variety. The reciever has a Weaver rail system.

I would prefer M1A sights, especially if caliber is .308, but YMMV

You could design this or you could go to AIM surplus and buy a Ishapore 2A1 Enfield in 7.62X51 for under $200.00 and be done...

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Enf-2A__Enfield_2A_.308_NATO_7.62x51_Rifles.html

A commercially produced weapon system similar to the 2A1 would sell like gangbusters IF price was reasonable and it was well made!

Spoon

 

[MilsurpShooter]

Thumbhole... Never really happy with them (Left handed myself) Other then that though sounds good to me at least

 

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

I'll put my .02 cents in...

If it was able to accept FAL mags that would be the icing on the cake! Ten rounderss are nice, but twenties and thirties are the spice of life !!

Still 2 Many Choices!?

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Others have really hit the nail on the head, I think. I'd love a good walk-about bolt gun myself, but it would be very difficult to produce and still compete against mil-surps.

The barrel length shouldn't be above 20", as stated. Even that seems long to me. You'd need to keep weight way down. Synthetic stock is good, thumbhole is something I could do without. I like the M1A sights best for that type of setup. A very utilitarian sight rail would be super, but again weight is an issue.

Using common magazines would be nice, or at least very cheap ones.

I'm just not sure you can have even most of those features for a price tag that would make people consider purchasing one and shelving their enfield/mauser/whatever.

 

[Hoppy590]

though it would be prohibitively expensive. a straight pull action (Schmidt) would be preferable.

basicly id like a K31 in .308 that takes FAL mags.
or in 223 that takes AR mags

 

[azredhawk44]

Spoon hit the nail on the head...

Sounds great. Make it take either M14 or FAL mags. If it costs more than a milsurp rifle, then it better have a barrel and chamber that makes it shoot better than a milsurp rifle. Otherwise, I'll stick with my $80 Mosin. If I can't shoot better than 2MOA with it, it isn't worth the price tag a new rifle will cost.

I have an 18" .308 with a muzzlebreak... It's an M1A. I don't want another 18-20" battle rifle of bolt action variety. I'll take the extra sight radius and weight of a 22-24" barrel for the extra powder burn and accuracy.

I love iron sights, btw. You make one around 22 inches in .308 or .30-06 that shoots sub-2MOA and I'll be on it like white on rice.

 

[SaMx]

like others mentioned, one in .308 that used FAL mags, or something else common, as well as a "mini" version in .223 or 7.62x39 that used ar-15 and ak mags would be cool. If it wasn't too expensive I would be interested in getting one.

One problem is that it might be too expensive. People have mentioned in the past the a lot of the old milsurp rifles would be very expensive to manufacture today, (for expample the Springfield Garand is pretty expensive) and the only reason they are cheap is because there are so many of them.

 

[MD_Willington]

How about...

SMLE or Mauser configured for:
30-06 in BAR mag
.308 in M14 mag
7.62x39 in AK mag
.223 in AR mag

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't think you could compete on price with all the surplus bolt actions the Nazis and Commies have dumped on the US market. Bubba can do a lot with a '91 Nagant.

 

[Hoppy590]

why not just make a AK sans the gas system.

it wouldnt be a 922 subjected rifle right ( only Semi auto's have to comply with 922) so you can use all the spare foriegn AK parts available cheap. stocks, grips, bolts, etc. cheap to make. simple. stamped reciever. straight pull ( pretty much)

and could be converted in the future.

 

[MD_Willington]

AK minus gas system

They did, for a while there were Romanian "pump action" AKM's imported.

They are actually pretty neat guns. Physical force pushes the op rod, no gas involved.

PAR-1 & 3 rifle
http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/model2.htm

 

[THE OUTPATIENT]

Good input...

I'd have to agree...the price has to be under $400 to make it remotely competitive with all the milsurp...and be sub 2 MOA or why bother?

I'll be back on this...

OP

 

[EricTheBarbarian]

sounds cool but i would bet its probably not going to be less than $100 like my m44

 

[thereisnospoon]

Here's my version...I am a lousy photgrapher, but the gun does the job...

It is a shortened (20"-"surprise") 2A1 with an ATN DigitalUltra sight on a "One Hot (scout) Mount". 7.62X51 with 12 round mag and feeds from strippers...

 

[atek3]

how's the cheek weld on that one?

 

[EricTheBarbarian]

that looks good, id be interested in something like that if i had the cash

 

[____hoot____]

Remmington makes the 7615 which is what I would like, except in 7.62 X 39 useing AK magazines instead of 223 with AR magazines. Or in 308 useing M14 mags or FAL mags. It is way too expensive though, over $200 more than a plastic stocked 742 which can be had for $400.

Didn't Savage make a cheap pump in 30-30, not too many years ago? How about a plastic stocked one of those in 7.62 X 39 useing AK magazines?

 

[boomvark]

I like the idea. Any of the chamberings you listed would be ok. Personally I'd jump all over one in 7.62x54R, and not just for the cheap (and corrosive) milsurp; I like the round intrinsically. .30-06 would be my second choice.

 

[THE OUTPATIENT]

Thats nuts...

...but has classic lines, and obvious utility.

The right path is often obscured to only The Chosen Ones, and truly you have had your Totem dream to create such a machine.

I need one...

OP

 

[thereisnospoon]

how's the cheek weld on that one

I did have to add a 1 inch padded cheek rest to get proper weld, but that solved the problem lickity split. I love to use this one after we have IDPA matches and have side Tactical Rifle matches...turns a lot of heads.

that looks good, id be interested in something like that if i had the cash

Honestly I don't have that much wrapped up in it...you could build it for prolly around $450.00, but cost wasn;t the factor it was a labor of love for me. Having the tools on hand to shorten the barrel and crown it saed me some $$$ aswell....I DuraCoated it myself, but you can use GunCoat or Alumahyde or something from Brownell's cheaper than DuraCoating.

but has classic lines, and obvious utility.

The right path is often obscured to only The Chosen Ones, and truly you have had your Totem dream to create such a machine.

I need one...

OP

Ummm....put down the piece pipe and step away from the piote...

J/K

I am glad you like it and I would gladly share details for anyone who wants them...purists need not apply.


BTW, in addition to the great firepower and other benefits of the Scout design, the replacement stock from ATI has a hollow Butt, so I created a little mini-survival kit that fits nice and neat in the buttstock.

 

[THE OUTPATIENT]

Hmmm...so here's what I'll try first.

I'm going to float this to the corporate types -

1. Getting away from Mauser action saves approximately $70 to $100 in machinery costs. Doing away with a stripper clip guides and going strictly magazines saves another $20 in machine costs. The rail system on top would preclude this anyway...

2. Two calibers for pre-prod will be .30-06 and 7.62 x 54R. The .30-06 barrels will be set for 150 grain loads. The 54R will be set tight for 147 grain, .308 cal bullets, so it should shoot the Combloc mil-surp and Winchester metrics well.

3. Sites will be US M-16A2 style, folding variety for mounting optics on the rail on top.

4. Muzzle brake will be FAL-DSA style.

6. Magazines will be rotary 10 rounders.

7. Chambers will be encased in 'voodo ceramic' that insures super-rapid heat transfer to external air.

8. Barrels will be fluted and chrome lined.

9. Barrel length will be standard at 22 inches.

10 Stock will be Mannlicher style forward, and thumbholed/pistol gripped for Generation Xers and Pepsi Generation (who generally gravitate towards pistol grip styles).

Let's see how this floats...

OP

 

[Trebor]

Personally, I'd probably go with a mil-surp. Any new commercial design would have to add some extra features to lure me away. It would also have to be a Mauser action or I would have no interest at all. There's a reason that action is the standard by which others are judged.

 

[Coronach]

The gun needs to offer something that milsurps do not, in order to woo buyers away from milsurps. We also should learn from 50 years or so since the last major army fielded a bolt action rifle.

1. Accruacy. Free float the barrel and design the action to be bolted into a chasis system in the stock like the AICS. Simple to attach and remove, consistent accuracy.

2. Interchangable barrel. Why not do a quick change barrel, a la the new ARs, XCR and Masada? One receiver could handle multiple calibers. The ultimate in post AWB flexibility.

3. Magazines vs stripper clips. I'm torn on this one. Relying on mags makes things a lot easier, but relies upon the mags themselves not being outlawed. The stripper clip system makes scope mounting difficult. I'd say go magazine based, and offer a fixed-mag stripper option later. Also, consider a bridge with a changable insert to handle different types of stripper clips (especially if you go with #2 above).

4. Optics. Milspec rail. Push it as far fore and aft as possible, to give the greatest flexibility in mounting optics. If you go with stripper clip, put mounting points on the bridge.

5. Iron sights. Put a mounting block on the barrel and allow the user to purchase their own BUIS.

6. Stock adjustable for LOP and height of comb. Or, offer it as a bolt-on option (see #1).

7. Rails for lights, etc. You'll miss the ninja market if you don't provide a rail system, or make provision for the installation of one. Plus, if you free-float the barrel and put the FS on a bock on the barrel and the RS on the receiver, you can sling up, via a sling mount on the rail, and not shift POI.

8. Flash-hider or muzzle brake option. I'd just thread the barrel as standard, and offer whatever the buyer wants as an option. That way, if barrel threading becomes verbotten, you just delete it.

9. I see no need whatsoever for a fully-encasing handguard system like a Mannlicher or the old Enfield. It decreases mounting options for doodads and rails (or do I misunderstand?), adds weight forward, and makes free-floating difficult.

10. Spend some time and money keeping HB1022 in committee.

Mike

PS Looking at #1, #6, #7 and #9, I think if you went with #1 and a "standard" stock to get the project off the ground, you could address the other ones easily later on via options, upgrades, etc. This will keep it simple and cheap at first, allow expandability later, and keep the rail-haters and anti-ninjas happy, since they can but the gun without all the widgets.

 

[MinScout]

Something like this, perhaps?