Marlin 1894 vs. Marlin 1895...why bother with the 44 Mag. or 45 Colt??

[saturno_v]

Nope there is a lever action rifle currently chambered for to 500 S&W but it will require deeper pockets than I have.
http://www.bighornarmory.com/products/carbine.php

That web site doesn't even mention the price...

However, performance wise, it would not surpass the 45-70 high loads available for the Mod 1895....if you ask me it's a pointless rifle....it adds to the variety of available options with no real advantage over a regular Marlin 45-70 lever action...and I suspect it's even heavier (the action has to be really beefy to withstand 65k psi of pressure)

Edit...the Big Horn Mod. 89 has a MSRP of $1889 vs. a street price for a Mod 1895 of ~$530 (roughly 3 times the price) and the rifle is slightly heavier.....as I said before, pointless IMHO...

 

[Ridgerunner665]

By the numbers (which mean very little IMO)...the 500 can match the 45-70 with bullets up to a certain weight (around 350 grains), even the hot 45-70 loads.

But bullet performance is quite different between the two.

No personal experience, but I read that somewhere...and the cost of that rifle above is right around $2,000, depending which model you want.

 

[MCMXI]

Neither action will stand up to the abuse of 60,000 psi...I like the .454 Casull, but its too much for these old designs to handle.

The .444 and .450 Marlins are 44,000 CUP cartridges and the .308 Marlin Express is a 46,500 psi cartridge. I'm not sure about the .338 Marlin Express but it's probably similar to the .308 ME.

Dave Emary of Hornady is quoted as saying ...

“We load [the .308 Marlin Express] to 46,500 psi ... the 336 action will handle a bit more, but extraction can get sticky. We insist on smooth function.”

Leaves me wondering how much more. If the weak link is the locking lug on the lever, how much work would it take to make it safe for the .454 Casull. I notice that PUMA doesn't seem to be offering the .454 Casull M-92 rifles anymore.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Not much more...I have a number for that, but I'm reluctant to post it 1858, for safety reasons.

The locking lug isn't the weak link (at least not as weak as many seem to think it is)...its the slim and trim design of the action.

 

[MCMXI]

Not much more...I have a number for that, but I'm reluctant to post it 1858, for safety reasons.

Damn!! I guess I'll stop thinking about a Marlin chambered for the .454 Casull. I even considered having one custom made by converting a '95 but if the action isn't strong enough then that presents a problem.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

The next best thing is the 1894 in a 45 Colt...it will handle the hot 45 Colt loads.

 

[MCMXI]

I have one of those and it's a GREAT rifle but I'd really like a .454 Casull to go with my Ruger Alaskan. There aren't many .454 Casull lever guns around it seems.

 

[JK47]

How about a 1894 in .45 ACP ?

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,65695.0.html

 

[Maj Dad]

Polemics

The 45-70 will shoot bigger bullets faster than the 454; that's fact. The 454 can be chambered in a smaller rifle, also fact (may be expensive, but...) But short of Grizz and the really big animals, and with range in mind, the 454 will kill just about everything else. If I had to, I'd shoot Grizz with it, or use a rock, but if going looking for him, I'll choose a 338 mag of some sort, maybe bigger. If that's not a factor, buy the one you like and consider the dia(-logue/-tribe) as informational polemics...

 

[CraigC]

The only thing I don't understand is why the heck Marlin doesn't make a '94 or '95 in .454 Casull. I bet they'd sell like hot cakes.

Everybody tried to adapt existing designs to the .454 cartridge but none were strong enough and also small enough to warrant it. The modern 1886 is plenty strong enough but too large to make any sense. Only the 1892 proved strong enough to handle the pressure without a major redesign.

Edit...the Big Horn Mod. 89 has a MSRP of $1889 vs. a street price for a Mod 1895 of ~$530 (roughly 3 times the price) and the rifle is slightly heavier.....as I said before, pointless IMHO...

Apples and oranges. The 1895 is a great rifle and a lot of gun for the money but it ain't a fifty. How about comparing the cost of the Big Horn to the cost of converting an 1886 to .50Alaskan? Not to even mention the significant difference in fit and finish between either and a $500 Marlin. Pointless to you maybe but fortunately, you don't get to pick everybody's guns.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Why is it the instant a grown man buys a 45/70 every last ounce of common sense he might have had about guns instantly flies out the window.

Why do you guys hold 45/70 as some kind of gold standard of power? Why mess with the 1895 at all when you can get a repeater in 458 Lott.

On topic
COST even if you handload a 45/70 will cost you about 3x the money to shoot using comparable projectiles. Pistol bullets in .452" are soooooooo much cheaper than .458" bullets not to mention the fact your powder consumption per shot is much much higher.

The other factor is handling. The much larger 1895 is a unwieldy club in comparison to a 1894 carbine.

 

[MCMXI]

Why do you guys hold 45/70 as some kind of gold standard of power? Why mess with the 1895 at all when you can get a repeater in 458 Lott.

I don't think we do ... and because I for one have no interest in killing an elephant or water buffalo ... or any animal in Africa for that matter!

The '95 chambered in .45-70 Govt with an 18.5" barrel is a compact, rugged, powerful and manageable rifle suitable for taking down just about anything in the US inside of 150 yards and probably a good bit further. What's wrong with that or with appreciating that? I have rifles chambered for more powerful, longer-reaching, flatter-shooting cartridges as well. My enthusiasm for the .45-70 doesn't blind me to its limitations or the advantages of other cartridges. In much the same way, my enthusiasm for the '95 doesn't blind me to the use, advantages or practicality of the '94.

 

[PT1911]

I have a puma 92 in 45 colt that i have every intention of reloading for to tailor some loads... BUT... I still have every intention of adding a 45-70 to the mix... Problem is, I am not sure whether or not to get the Marlin guide gun (I want it so bad) or go with with the H&R Buffalo Classic... I hear good things about both of them.

Why do I want a 45-70? Why the hell not? It is a classic cartridge that has an incredible amount of versatility. There is nothing deer size and up in the continental US that cannot be humanely taken down with it AND, one can reload to shoot accurately at some pretty incredible distances.... relatively speaking!

 

[Ridgerunner665]

+1 to what 1858 said.

Have you bought or reloaded any 458 Lott ammo lately...I have a 458WM, its kinda spendy to shoot it though.

 

[saturno_v]

Why do you guys hold 45/70 as some kind of gold standard of power? Why mess with the 1895 at all when you can get a repeater in 458 Lott.

That is an apples to oranges comparison....a slow, heavy, bolt action, "north of $1500" rifle compared to a handy lever action ~$500 rifle.

The cost of 458 Lott ammo (or brass) is nothing short of insane....do not get me wrong I will buy a 458 Lott (I love the interchangeability with the 458 WM) just for sake of completing my collection (I want a true elephant rifle in my stable) but I'm not planning to shoot it that much.....on the other side I plan to shoot my future 45-70 quite more....

Apples and oranges. The 1895 is a great rifle and a lot of gun for the money but it ain't a fifty. How about comparing the cost of the Big Horn to the cost of converting an 1886 to .50Alaskan? Not to even mention the significant difference in fit and finish between either and a $500 Marlin. Pointless to you maybe but fortunately, you don't get to pick everybody's guns.

Functionally it's a perfect oranges to oranges comparison.

I do not have hard data on hand but in terms of pure energy, the hot 45-70 loads should outperform the best 500 S&W loads out of a rifle barrel, with the 45-70 having better SD...however, let's assume they are equal in practice when it comes to killing power.

Then you can argue about fit and finish and it is ok with that....however the basic ~$500 Mod. 1895 is well finished...sure it may not have the Big Horn attention to detail but from the functional standpoint this is not relevant....again a perfect adequate functional comparison.

In the woods I rather getting a scratch on a $500 rifle than on a $2000 rifle....

 

[Dr.Rob]

1894 = Fast handling out to 125 yards or so before it drops like a rock. Mine won't chamber some 300gr handloads. Fun fun fun when doing CASS type shooting, plinking, trying to blow the guts out of a bowling pin. Unless you are shooting cowboy save the $$ and get the round barrel, adjustable sights and sling swivels on the standard model.

1895 = bigger thump, longer range, still like throwing a football, and you only get 4 shots. Still anything that needs more than 4 shots of 405gr ammo probably lives in Africa not the lower 48. Also available in a 'cowboy' octagon barrel full magazine version. Heavy as hell. Useful for shooting deer hiding behind 40's vintage Dodge sedans. Guide gun versions very popular in places where your daily commute involves a bush plane.

336 = probably does everything both of the above can do for most people. 3" 200 yard groups are possible, plenty of pop up close, and with 170 gr ammo suitable for most lower 48 game. What it lacks in sex appeal it makes up for in reliability and freezers full of game for century or so of use if cleaned and oiled regularly.

I have all three.

 

[natman]

If you shoot at the range over bags, there's not much reason to forego the potential extra power the 45-70 offers.

However, some people actually hunt and carry their gun all day and for them the light weight and fast handling of an 1894 are worthwhile advantages.

 

[Old Time Hunter]

The .444 and .450 Marlins are 44,000 CUP cartridges and the .308 Marlin Express is a 46,500 psi cartridge. I'm not sure about the .338 Marlin Express but it's probably similar to the .308 ME.

Dave Emary of Hornady is quoted as saying ...

“We load [the .308 Marlin Express] to 46,500 psi ... the 336 action will handle a bit more, but extraction can get sticky. We insist on smooth function.”

Leaves me wondering how much more. If the weak link is the locking lug on the lever, how much work would it take to make it safe for the .454 Casull. I notice that PUMA doesn't seem to be offering the .454 Casull M-92 rifles anymore.

'Course you could go to a Winchester BB 94 and get a little more peace of mind:

When I thought I had the 444 all figured out, and tested, and game proved...Winchester tosses us a curve. Winchester brought out two versions of the 444 on the fatside ‘94 Big Bore. One is the Black Shadow with a synthetic stocks...and the other with wood. My synthetic stock B/Shadow has a 1 In 12 twist...wow does it like long heavy bullets, now the others have a 1 in 20 twist. The first several hundred Black Shadow 444s were fitted with 1 in 12 rifling... I’m not sure why Winchester then went to 1 in 20. Also the Big Bore 94 Winchester action is a lot stronger then the Marlin SS. Marlin has to have pressure around 40,000 to 45,000+lbs where the Winchester BB can go substantially higher 50,000 to 55,000 lbs. Might be a curve thrown by Winchester but it is a nice curve...

Back to the subject at hand, the reason for the .44 in a 1894 Marlin vs. a .45-70 in a Marlin 1895 is: Balance and handling, same caliber as your side arm...did you ever shoot a .45-70 hand gun? Under 150 yards, the critters don't know the difference unless you just wound them.

 

[CraigC]

Functionally it's a perfect oranges to oranges comparison.

Functionally you can compare an RG to a S&W Registered Magnum, a Ruger to a Freedom Arms, or a Henry to a Japanese Winchester. They all go bang when you pull the trigger. But anybody with any knowledge knows what the VAST difference is between the two. Same here. If you don't see the value in what amounts to a scratch-built custom rifle, thendon't buy one. Just don't tell me that there's no difference between a Uberti and a USFA, S&W and RG, Henry and Winchester, Ruger and FA, or Big Horn and Marlin.

In the woods I rather getting a scratch on a $500 rifle than on a $2000 rifle....

I'd rather get a scratch carrying whatever gave me the most pleasure to hunt with, regardless of what it costs. There are some people for whom the details of fit and finish are important. Some for whom it is critical and they are willing to pay for it. For me, I'd much rather have the joy of carrying a svelte little 5 1/2lb Merkel 28ga and impart wear on a $4000 work of art than to tote a synthetic stocked and soulless 870 because I'm worried about scratches. YMMV.

 

[glockman19]

As you mention the calibers have similar ballistics.

My choice was easy...I have a S&W 629 .44mag and the 1894SS pairs with it beautifully.

 

[saturno_v]

Functionally you can compare an RG to a S&W Registered Magnum, a Ruger to a Freedom Arms, or a Henry to a Japanese Winchester. They all go bang when you pull the trigger. But anybody with any knowledge knows what the VAST difference is between the two. Same here. If you don't see the value in what amounts to a scratch-built custom rifle, thendon't buy one. Just don't tell me that there's no difference between a Uberti and a USFA, S&W and RG, Henry and Winchester, Ruger and FA, or Big Horn and Marlin.

Again, no functional difference which was my point....then we can discuss about all the bells and whistles and I do recognize the differences there.

I'd rather get a scratch carrying whatever gave me the most pleasure to hunt with, regardless of what it costs.

You are one of the few ones, I tip my hat to you......I see so many times people bringing they Perazzis or other high end shotguns (or rifles for that matter) at the range and being literally paranoid about it.

Recently one fellow somehow got a mark on his highly customized Kimber 1911 and he was more hysterical than a teen ager girl at the concert of her favorite pop star.

Guns are machines not piece of jewellery IMHO....meant to be used and the use involves wear and the occasional scuff and scratch...if they are accurate, robust, reliable, with good triggers and ergonomics is all I need.

In the Marlin Lever case, they are a nice looking rifles, accurate, robust, ergonomic, well balanced and reasonably well finished, proven in the field for decades....I have no need to go higher than that in the same category.

Another aspect to consider (at least for me) is that Marlin is a big company with good and reliable customer service, there are millions of rifles everywhere and you can expect to be around for many more decades....I'm wary of shelling out thousands of dollars to a mom and pop firearm manufacturer in the middle of the nowhere (many firearm makers are very small operations) that may not be around 5 years from now.

I know more than one case of people that ended up having their high end piece as wall hanger (or having lots of trouble fixing it) because the company folded and there were no parts available.

 

[jkingrph]

My 1894 cowboy, 44mag is worlds apart from the 1895 cowboy, 45-70.

As said earlier bullets for the 44 top out at about 300 gr, and start at 300-350 and up for the 45-70. Really light loads in the 45-70 recoil more than moderate to heavy loads in the 44, plus it's a lighter handier rifle.

 

[CraigC]

I see so many times people bringing they Perazzis or other high end shotguns (or rifles for that matter) at the range and being literally paranoid about it.

I've seen it plenty of times too and it makes no sense to me either. While I do get pleasure from looking at my guns, regardless of what they cost, the real pleasure for me comes in using them. I am of the mind that I prefer to spend money on the guns I use the most and I have zero that I 'just' look at, let alone any that I don't shoot. I remember when I first noticed some wear on the fences of my little Merkel, I was actually excited. I am anal about taking care of them but not at the expense of the enjoyment I get from using them. IMHO, they cost too much NOT to use them. Life is too short!!!

 

[ohwell]

I have the 1894 Cowboy in 45 Colt I bought it to go along with my 45 Colt Blackhawk, I can share reloads between the 2 guns and I just plain liked the looks of the 1894 Cowboy