Mental issues and firearms

[AlexanderA]

The vast majority of mental conditions have nothing to do with gun violence. If we make all cases of depression, anxiety, etc., disqualifying for gun ownership -- and then take the logical next step of disqualifying the household members of such patients -- then pretty soon most of the population would be ineligible to own guns. This sort of situation would be the antigunners' fondest wish. Don't think that they haven't thought seriously about such a tactic.

Current law provides that a person cannot purchase or possess a gun if he or she has been involuntarily committed for mental health treatment, or has been adjudicated a danger to self or others. This presumes due process, and an opportunity for a hearing. I think we should leave it at that. If a person gets to the point where he questions his own safety with a gun, then, sure, he should place his guns with someone else for safekeeping. But it should be up to him.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

I have to agree as well how difficult it is to predict when someone goes postal.
Someone could be totally normal and be an abiding gun owner until a crisis occurs causing that individual to commit suicide. Difficult if not impossible to predict.
However upon identification I think steps should be taken to remove firearms from that person. I think the Supreme Court did discuss recently about spousal abuse and firearm ownership.

 

[Ed Ames]

what I said-a diagnosed mental condition by a physician and treated by a physician through medication and therapy. This would include a diagnosis of beginnings of mental dementia as well.

Dementia is another blanket term that covers many different conditions, and many levels of imparement.

I regularly interact with several people who have been diagnosed with dementia. They range from having the mental competence of a 2 year old, to completely understanding what is going on, with good memory, but with bulbar palsey that leaves the individal a drooling "non-verbal". They all have exactly the same 290.x code. Some I wouldn't trust to make a peanut butter sandwich with a plastic knife, but one I would hand the keys to my car with the only concern being that if the person was stopped by an idiot cop, said cop might beat and/or shoot the person for not being able to talk or reaching for the tablet that is how the person writes messages to the world. In other words, I think police officers are a bigger public safety hazzard than this person in a 3800lb high powered vehicle.

So no, I don't think that a diagnosis of dementia is by itself reason for a person to give their guns away...though there are cases where I would take (without even telling the person) away guns to give to family members and consider my actions ethically correct even if they were technically theft.

Why would I do that? Not out of concern the people would hurt themselves, but concern that someone less honest than me would simply take the things and nobody would find out until a son/daughter went looking for the heirloom they were promised.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

Alexander A a handgun is the easiest thing to use when a person hits a crisis point. Case in point: I work as an Occupational Health Nurse at GM Flint MI once or twice a week. I live in East Lansing MI. This was in the local news in Flint. A GM employee went into GM Assembly Flint and used a handgun to commit suicide. Now GM has a zero tolerance for handguns in the plants and in GM parking lots but it happened. This employee apparently developed a crisis point due to some circumstances which were not identified soon enough and used the easiest means to attempt suicide-a handgun.
That has caused a serious concern with nursing relating to what bozos could be carrying concealed in the plants when they should not be.
I have to agree the most difficult is to ID someone before that person does harm to himself/herself or others. Handguns are easy to use.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

Ed Ames recently a blood test has identified through research revealing the lack of certain lipids pre disposing such people for Alzheimer's later in life. The research is getting better in identifying the causal factors of various forms of dementia. This test is not yet released but the results are quite promising.

 

[horsemen61]

Where do you draw the line is my big question

 

[Ed Ames]

That has caused a serious concern with nursing relating to what bozos could be carrying concealed in the plants when they should not be.

Why? Sounds like that is well beyond the scope of nursing.

This will probably not be the most popular point of view, but...methods of suicide which are unlikely to cause collateral fatalities should be easily accessible, as a matter of public safety. Otherwise you get the situation that happened in New York City back in 2006 when a doctor injured five pedestrians and ten firefighters while using a natural gas explosion to commit suicide, or the not-infrequent-enough cases of people accidentally killing family members when using carbon monoxide from an automobile in an attached garage.

recently a blood test has identified through research revealing the lack of certain lipids pre disposing such people for Alzheimer's later in life. The research is getting better in identifying the causal factors of various forms of dementia.

I think I read about that. However, even there, do you give up your civil liberties because according to a test someday you may have cognative imparements? When?

 

[W.E.G.]

Where do you draw the line is my big question

Answer: Way on the safe side of personal liberty.

You do realize that this mental health thing is going to be used as a bludgeon to try to disarm everybody who ever yelled at a meter maid.

 

[hartcreek]

The Op is one of those quacks that I have had to deal with for deckades. My first TBI...... I was 15 years old. I have had numerous injuries since then. I am retired because of the last one. I worked at a college as a Biology and Chemistry lab tech the college was too cheep to purchase the equiment that was needed. As a result I have neurological damage. My SSDI case took ten years specifically because I did not want my firearms rights effected by some PHD quack with their head up their a-- that was too lazy to do the research on neurological damage from industrial solvent exposure.

I have friends that are vets and the VA has threatened some of them with all kinds of crap purely based on politics.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

You do realize that this mental health thing is going to be used as a bludgeon to try to disarm everybody who ever yelled at a meter maid.

Yep.
Their outright attempt to blatantly curtail people's rights didn't work so they are laying the ground work to attack from a different angle.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

Ed Ames 2 things: One you had mentioned removing firearms from a loved one who is suffering from late stage dementia and re distributing to family members. The firearms are registered to that person so really that person should have taken steps in the beginning to dispose of his/her firearms - that would be to me a responsible thing to do. I would say one would need a lawyer to seek re-distribution if the person is incapable of making decisions.
My comment on "bozos who might be carrying in the plant when they should not" well it is a nursing issue. We have occasionally irate people who show up at medical - and that is a concern relating to firearms. Second it is a nursing issue relating to public health and safety. Health and safety is what we do and what we are concerned about. So we are concerned with the health and safety of all employees working in the plant.

 

[Ed Ames]

The firearms are registered to that person so ...

Sorry, no, that's just factually wrong. Most guns are not registered to anyone.

Anyone over about 60 can be assumed to own guns that predate the federal efforts to license dealers and may not even have serial numbers/may never have passed through any official recordkeeping process. In most of the US anyone 18 or older can own a gun that is in no way registered to them. This is perfectly legal and right.

As for the rest, you live with your conscience, they live with theirs, I live with mine. If they decide to dispose of their guns, great. If they don't, and literally don't remember that they have a loaded gun in their drawer, I am going to take my own steps. Lawyers may end up involved but that's a matter for the family to decide.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

The firearms are registered to that person so really that person should have taken steps in the beginning to dispose of his/her firearms

There are EXTREMELY few places in the U.S. where any firearms are registered. This is a common misconception stemming from watching too much television.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

When I bought any handgun...

...I had to present to the police station a form supplied by the gun dealer within 48 hours. Is that a form of registration?

 

[improperlyaged]

The fact of the matter is this; We are simply gonna have to deal with people who are mentally unhealthy having access to firearms if we wish to save our personal liberties. Adding more regulations or screenings to gun owners is the same thing as criminalizing someone because they wish to own a gun. It makes all Gun owners to be mental patients. People are not mentally screened before buying cars or Drano.

Foregoing a right to bear arms should be set aside when public safety to include individual safety I at risk.

I will not forego any of my rights. Rights are exactly that, rights. Mentally unstable persons also have a right to self defense, just as much as they have a right to jury by trial. The fact is we are in a fallen world where we have to deal with random outbursts of violence. Some will be the result of misdiagnosed mental health issues, some will simply be evil doing what evil does. If government regulation could make concrete and utter public safety, then prisons wouldn't be so dangerous.

 

[Godsgunman]

Shootingthebreeze,
You keep bringing up depression and how it can supposedly lead to possible suicide by gun or murder/suicide. Which, yes it can, but with your line of thinking those who suffer from depression should not just give up their guns but their access to knives, razor blades, ropes, ties, anti-freeze, household chemicals, pain killers, cars, tall bridges, tall buildings, all things that are more commonly used than guns in suicide attempts. The vast majority of suicide attempts are made with something other than a firearm. It's just shocking to me that being a RN you don't know many of the statistics and no matter how you try to explain or spin your way out, your bias is pretty clear.

I have known a few (4) people that tried to commit suicide (1 successful) and all had access to a firearm and none chose that route. 2 with razor blades, one with anti-freeze, one with a car by running a hose from the exhaust into the car and falling asleep (the only successful one). Many seen through the ER are not firearm related.

Pandora's box has now been opened.

 

[Ed Ames]

...I had to present to the police station a form supplied by the gun dealer within 48 hours. Is that a form of registration?

It is, but that is specific to your locale. I live in a different state and if I tried to bring a form to my local police station they would have a good laugh and send me on my way. Knowing them, probably with an admonishment that, "we don't do none of that commie stuff 'round here." I can finish a dealer handgun purchase in under 10 minutes, total, and the entire record of my purchase stays at the dealer (assuming I don't use a credit card, and ignoring the potential for extralegal snooping).

 

[Davek1977]

"Depression" even treated with meidcation, covers such a wide gamut of actual conditions that I don't see a diagnosis as reason to rid oneself of firearms. My wife is on Paxil for anxiety and depression. She also knows where every firearm in the house is, and how to use them. I wouldn't have it any other way. She has been "diagnosed" and is medicated for the condition, but I have no fears whatsoever of her harming herself or anyone else. It seems that Shootingthebreeze would like people like my wife to voluntarily disarm, when quite frankly, I think UNTREATED, UNDIAGNOSED, and UNMEDIATED mental issues are a FAR greater concern than those people actually getting help. That's like taking a drivers license away from someone getting help for his or her alcoholism, but letting the person who still gets habitually drunk drive at will. We shouldn't punish people for seeking help, nor should the average person be afraid someone will want to take/want them to give up their guns because they have an issue they want help with. Why scare away the very people who need treatment the worst? Its already to the point I personally would be hesitant to seek help if I felt I needed it, because of some the very ideas expressed here.

 

[Fishbed77]

Tying the right to keep and bear arms to reporting of mental illness sounds like a good way to keep veterans from seeking needed treatment and support for PTSD.

 

[Ed Ames]

For what it is worth, you can see exactly how government medical restrictions on firearms would play out by looking at the aviation world.

You cannot get an airman medical, needed to legally fly most airplanes, if you have ever been diagnosed as having depression or any number of other mental health conditions. Most people consider that pretty reasonable. "I don't want a 747 crashing into a football stadium because some UPS pilot's antidepressants weren't working...."

What that means, in the real world, is that if your parents went along with a doctor who wanted to pin you with an ADD diagnosis when you were 11, you can kiss the carreer of commercial pilot goodbye forever. If your primary care physician writes you a prescription for anti-anxiety meds when you are 18, you'd better hope you can prove you never filled that prescription or you will never be able to fly. If you are an active pilot and are feeling depressed, you had better self-medicate and pull it together or your career and perhaps $60,000 worth of training time (not counting lost wages...just the cost of getting the licenses you need) is gone forever.

This isn't done because of risks to the public, nor risks to the pilots. It's done because the people who write and enforce the regulations (employees of the FAA) don't want to be in a position where, after an accident (regardless of cause), a news reporter or congressman demands to know why they let somone with a known history of mental illness fly an airplane. That sort of thing is career damaging and no federal employee is going to be permissive if there is even a slim chance of it coming back to bite them in a public way.

That's the situation today for pilots, and it will be the situation for gun owners if mental health is allowed to be a regulatory issue for firearms ownership.

 

[jr45]

Tying the right to keep and bear arms to reporting of mental illness sounds like a good way to keep veterans from seeking needed treatment and support for PTSD.

That is what VA and some folks on the hill is trying. Just because someone has PTSD, does that disqualify them? What about someone on meds for anxiety or mild depression? A lot of folks are on meds some time in their life (I feel the meds are over prescribed). Also consider, that of all of the shootings in the US, a very small portion is committed by those with mental illness...they just get more publicity.

 

[ScottsBad]

I wonder if the OP is really a registered nurse. The statement about giving away all their firearms doesn't make any sense. Not all depression is severe and 1 in 10 Americans over the age of 12 take SSRIs.

Being diagnosed with depression is common and usually temporary, if depression were a sure indicator of someone killing themselves or harming others we'd see a whole lot more suicides and crazy murders. Because 10% of Americans over 12 would probably be 20-25 Million Americans.

How many people are killed by crazies? How many commit suicide, maybe 25,000 a year now? Not 20-25 million. How many of the people who would do harm would find other ways to murder or commit suicide if we took their guns away?

OP, I think you should give me all your guns for safe keeping because you are not thinking rationally. This is just another way to take guns away from law abiding citizens for minor reasons. Next it'll be, "Should we take guns away from people who might be alcoholics?" Might be? Who decides?

Obviously this is a tactic to convince Americans that anyone who is seeking help to cope with life is unstable and potentially dangerous, that is all of us at one time or another. All this will do is keep Americans from seeking help and will have the opposite effect. People who truly need help will not seek it because they may lose their rights.

There is a vast continuum between people with mild depression and truly sick psychotics.

 

[ScottsBad]

From Arkansas Paul - There are EXTREMELY few places in the U.S. where any firearms are registered. This is a common misconception stemming from watching too much television.

Yes, but the main population centers require registration. So as a percentage of the population it is becoming quite large. So in essence you are wrong.

 

[d2wing]

First of all there is no strong correlation between gun deaths and mental illness except in rare cases.
Second one who gives up freedom for safety ends up with neither.
Safety or for the children is the cover they use to steal freedom all the time.

 

[BryanDavis]

I'd like to point a few things out in this thread.

The mentally ill by and large are not violent. This includes those who hear voices, i.e. are diagnosed with schizophrenia and those diagnosed with bipolar. The mentally ill, in fact, are more likely to be victims of crime than the purveyors of it.

Psychiatrists do not diagnose people with "psychopathy" nor with "sociopathy" although the media, politicians and average individuals often do.

Whenever there is a shooting like this people are very quick to jump on the "Let's take the guns away from the crazies!" And "Loonies belong in the looney bin!" bandwagon, but the reality is that the pathology of someone who actually takes part in a mass murder is far darker than modern psychiatry is prepared to confront.

I, for one, am not prepared to start gun-grabbing based on the hysterical assertions of people using tragedy to justify their own pre-existing agenda.