Merwin and Hulbert Pocket DA

[obturator]

I recently obtained this original looking piece and just fired a round of .32 S&W in it today.
For those that are familiar with these neat little guns, after I broke it down to expell the spent casing, it was out of the cylinder, up against the recoil shield like I suppose it is supposed to be.
My question is what is extracting the spent case?

 

[silicosys4]

There is a lip around the recoil shield that the cartridge rims slide under when reloaded. This grabs the spent and unspent cases. Neat feature, only the spent cases dump when the revolver is opened this way, any unfired cartridges will be retained.

That gun is in really nice shape, nicest pocket MH I've seen. I have the exact same gun, only not as nice, in .38

 

[Jim K]

"... only the spent cases dump when the revolver is opened this way, any unfired cartridges will be retained."

But only if the case is the right length so the bullet of the unfired round remains in the cylinder to hold the round. Firing .32 S&W, fired cases and unfired rounds all fall out. In the old days, they made a .32 M&H cartridge of the correct length, but it is almost unknown today, even to cartridge collectors.

Jim

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

silicosys4 is correct. Here is a photo of the 'extraction ring' on the frame of a 44 caliber MH.




And here is a photo of the ring 'extracting' spent 44 Russian cases.




Jim K is also correct. One of my Merwins was originally chambered for 44-40. It was rebuilt with a new cylinder chambered for 44 Russian. The stroke is long enough that both fired and unfired 44 Russians are ejected when the gun is opened.

By the way, that extractor ring is the reason that the MH has to be loaded from the side gate. You can't load it when the gun is open as you can with a S&W Top Break. The ring is in the way if you try to close the gun. It has to be loaded singly through the loading gate.

P.S. That is a very nice looking 32 Merwin you have there. That ammo is pretty old, Peters has been Remington Peters for a long time.

 

[obturator]

After reading your replies, I noticed the extraction ring described, kind of backwards as opposed to a modern revolver where the cylinder is static and the extractor star is pushed away from the cylinder face.
Thank you gentlemen for your explanation and kind words.

 

[gopguy]

I had one in .38 S&W years back with the folding hammer spur. Got it from a fellow whose great-grandfather had been a railroad dick. Interesting thing was the grip was cut in a diamond shape revealing a fading picture of his great-grandmother. I eventually let it go to another collector but it was an interesting piece.

 

[Jim K]

M&H didn't actually make any guns (Hopkins and Allen made the M&H guns) but they were marketers. The whole design was something of a hype. Not that it didn't work, it did, and many people who have never tried to operate a M&H consider it a great idea. But the reality is a bit different, even with cartridges of the correct length.

You open the gun and sometimes the fired cases drop free, but most of the time they get tangled up and have to be flipped out with the finger. Then the unfired rounds stay in place, but interfere with the fired cases.

Then, once the unfired rounds are properly retained, you have to close the gun, open the loading gate, and check each chamber to see if there is a round in it or not. If not, then you can load that chamber and check the next one. Once all the chambers are (re)loaded and the gate closed, you can fire another cylinder full.

In my limited experience, the M&H is not only a bit confusing, but takes about the same time to actually reload as the Colt SAA, and a lot more time than an S&W No. 3, IF you are willing to just eject all the cases from the S&W, fired or not. Nor do I find the M&H especially handy or easy to use, though I admit that it would probably be better with more practice than I had. Still, the old timers did not storm the doors of gun shops demanding more M&H's.

There was a bit of a fuss a couple of years ago when someone claimed to be ready to manufacture repro M&H revolvers. That turned out to be "premature" to say the least - more hot air than hot guns. I have heard nothing recently, so maybe the promoter is now working in Washington peddling BS for the politicians.

Jim

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I have agree with Jim K about actually shooting a Merwin Hulbert. It is much simpler and quicker to pop open a Top Break revolver and eject and reload while the gun is open than it is to pop open a MH to eject the empties, then close the gun to reload through the loading gate. I also agree that some of the empties often get caught and have to be flicked away with a finger.

Much of the hype about the MH stems from the seminal book about them, The Story of Merwin Hulbert & Co. by Art Phelps. Phelps made a big deal about how advanced the design was, but the simple truth is you have to close the gun again to reload, you cannot reload while it is open. The extractor ring prevents reloading while the gun is open. With a Smith & Wesson Top Break, you open the gun, it automatically ejects the empties, and you reload while the gun is still open. Much simpler. Phelps also makes a big deal about the tight tolerances required to manufacture the unique barrel swiveling mechanism. In fact, the tolerances required are no tighter than were required to build a S&W Top Break. The lockwork of a single action MH is identical to the lockwork of a Top Break Smith. This hype was also used by the now defunct company that was going to reproduce the MH designs.

There is one other thing that can be confusing when shooting a Merwin Hulbert. When loading a Colt, the standard sequence is to load one, skip one chamber, load four more, cock the hammer and lower it on an empty chamber. Because of the location of the loading gate on the MH, one has to remember to load two, skip one, then load three more, cock the hammer then lower it onto the empty chamber. The difference has burned me a couple of times. Also, unlike a Colt or S&W, you can't peek behind the recoil shield to make sure there is no live round under the hammer. The recoil shield wraps around and hides the rims.

The Merwin Hulbert design is distinctive, and really cool mostly because it is so different. These are a couple of shooters I bought from a friend. They have been heavily reworked, they are not pristine, but they are fun to shoot. And it really is fun to walk to the unloading table at a CAS match and swivel the barrel to unload. The unloading officer usually asks what the heck kind of gun is that?












I missed out on a really terrific Double Acton MH at an auction about a month ago. It was in pristine condition. And it went for much more than I could afford.

http://www.amoskeagauction.com/98/273.html

 

[.455_Hunter]

Wow- All of those guns are beautiful!

It's really too bad that replicas of these fine weapons are not being produced.

The world has enough SAA clones already! Make something different!

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Perhaps you missed the bit where somebody just tried. Orders and deposits were taken. Years went by with nothing produced but some prototype parts and 3D CAD pictures. Eventually, another company bought out the name and the deposits were actually returned. It is hard to start up a new company today recreating antique designs.

 

[BSA1]

In defense of the MH design the "skull crusher" grip frame made it ideal for the lawmen of the era. "Buffaloing" an unruly drunk meant having a live prisoner to fine the next morning.

 

[Jim K]

The "skull crusher" was apparently not intended for any such use; it was used on the bird's head butt as a support for the little finger and a means of attaching a lanyard or thong. I suspect that anyone using the butt of an M&H to beat anyone hard enough to crush the skull would have ended up with a badly bent revolver.

Another design "defect" I have found is that darned near every time I remove the barrel from the frame, I forget and let the cylinder fall off the barrel. Fortunately, that always has happened over a carpet or other soft surface, so the cylinders have been undamaged.

As to the loading directions, I thank Driftwood, but somehow doubt I am going to carry an M&H any time soon.

(FWIW, the recoil shield has to hide the rims because the rims have to be trapped between the extractor ring and the recoil shield, otherwise all the cases will fall out when the gun is opened.)

Jim

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Jim

The friend I bought my Merwins from took a little bit of time to instruct me in their use. He is the one who told me about the load 2 skip one business.

He also cautioned me when removing the barrel to hold the gun upside down so the cylinder would be supported by the relief in the barrel around the gas collar. Mine have topstraps, so that helps too. He also cautioned me to remove the barrel over a table, just in case.

Have not dropped a cylinder..............yet.