Messed up mauser

[homeka45]

Today I reassembled my chilean 1912 mauser. The rifle had been apart in pieces and soaking in oil for approx. 2 yrs., so instead of researching on how to reassemble the rifle, esp. the bolt I winged it (and screwed it up). Now I have a fully assembled rifle w/ a partially assembled bolt. The bolt is together with the exception of the cocking sleeve. With the bolt in a padded vise I can cock and un-cock the bolt by depressing the retaining pin, but I can't seem to unscrew the bolt sleeve off of the bolt body so I can reassemble the bolt correctly with the cocking sleeve,safety, bolt sleeve and firing pin. Any ideas and approaches to remedy my stupidity are welcome, or if you think I should send the bolt off to a smith, give me some names and addresses. Thanks.
BTW my wife said she put a hex on this gun since I bought it during my first marriage. She's not being very helpful.

 

[Zeke Menuar]

This should be close enough to your Mauser to help you assemble your bolt.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/mauserboltdisassembly/index.asp

ZM

 

[homeka45]

Thanks Zeke, unfortunately the problem is I can't get my bolt apart. I knew about surplusrifles excellent articles and how-to's but I thought I could do it w/o the help. WRONG

 

[Zeke Menuar]

Have you tried playing Black Sabbath backwards in the cemetary at midnight to remove the hex your wife put on it?

This doesn't bode well for me. I have a M38 Turkish Mauser completely stripped and am restoring it. Hopefully I can my bolt back together. I had a hard enough time getting apart.

Wish I could have been more helpful

ZM

 

[homeka45]

I'm sure you'll do fine, that tutorial on surplusrifles is what I should have looked at in the first place. The hex on the rifle is what worries me, maybe that's why it's still unfired by me.

 

[Zeke Menuar]

I am not sure if I will ever fire mine. The headspace borders on too big. I bought this gun knowing it was a beater to practice stock repair, refinishing, metal refinishing, rust removal, rebluing etc. The guts of the bolt need a lot of cleaning. If I am lucky I might have this done by spring. It may not shoot good but it will look good.

ZM

 

[Barrelmaker]

Your description of what you've done makes it hard to understand where your at in assembling the bolt. You say it's all together but the cocking "sleeve". Do you mean cocking piece? Retaining pin? Again not sure what you mean. On the left side of the safety shroud there is a bolt lock detent. Depress it and unscrew the shroud. Tell me if this is where you are.

 

[Jim K]

Some terminology: The part that has the safety is called the bolt sleeve; it also has the bolt sleeve lock. It screws into the bolt body, and is freed for turning by depressing the bolt sleeve lock.

The cocking piece is the part that engages the sear. It is held onto the rear of the firing pin by lugs which are engaged/disengaged by a 90 degree turn.

It sounds like you screwed the bolt sleeve into the bolt body without the other parts. I can't see why the bolt sleeve wouldn't unscrew from the bolt body, but the sleeve lock has to be depressed.

Jim

 

[homeka45]

Jim and barrelmaker,
As far as my terminology I'm just using the terminology from the surplusrifle.com link that Zeke referred to. I'll try and explain why I'm having a problem (besides being a dumbash), I had the bolt body with the extractor installed, I then assembled the firing pin and main spring and put them into the bolt body, then I screwed the bolt sleeve into the bolt body as far as possible. The problem now is that I'm unable to unscrew the bolt sleeve off of the bolt body. I've depressed the sleeve lock but that only allows me to cock the bolt which I can also uncock. However that's as far as I get. I've even placed the bolt sleeve into a padded vise and used the bolt handle to try and unscrew the bolt both with and without the sleeve lock depressed. I was able to put a fairly good amount of pressure on it but no go. The cocking sleeve was not attached to the bolt sleeve when it was screwed onto the bolt body. I hope this makes things clearer.

 

[Barrelmaker]

Can you take the bolt body and compress the firing pin and place the safety in the middle position? The firing pin will unscrew in the middle position with the sleeve lock depressed.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

It sounds like the bolt is put together without the safety. What parts are on the bolt, and what parts are left aside? Is the rear shroud screwed onto the bolt? Is the sear on the bolt? Can you post a picture or two?

They are pretty simple to put together. And, there are a number of ways to put it together wrong (ask me how I know).

Regards.

 

[Jim K]

OK, I looked at that site, and what they call the "cocking sleeve" is commonly called the cocking piece, and their "retaining pin" is known as the bolt sleeve lock.

(Sorry, Sleeping dog, your terms are further out; the sear is not on the bolt, it is in the receiver and holds the cocking piece to the rear. I assume your "rear shroud" is the bolt sleeve.)

Now to the problem. I think I now understand what went wrong. First, I will describe reassembly of the Mauser bolt, and tell me where you went wrong. I will assume the extractor is in place OK, so:

1. With the front of the firing pin held in a vise or a hole in the bench, slip the mainspring down over the rear end until it stops on the firing pin flange.

2. Assemble the safety and bolt sleeve lock on the bolt sleeve. Then place the bolt sleeve down over the rear of the firing pin. (The hole in the bolt sleeve is oblong to fit the firing pin, so you may have to look to see how it goes on.)

3. Place the safety in the middle position and hold it there while you push the bolt sleeve down and compress the spring.

4. When the spring is compressed all the way, place the cocking piece on the end of the firing pin. It too has an oblong hole; once pushed down far enough, it can be turned 90 degrees so that its bottom part fits into the slot in the bolt sleeve. If the safety remained in the mid position, the cocking piece should be kept to the rear and the assembly should then be able to be screwed into the bolt body. If the safety slipped, the cocking piece will have to be pushed back until the safety can be moved to mid position.

It sounds like you put the firing pin and spring in first, then tried to put on the bolt sleeve. That obviously won't work, but I tried it and can't get the bolt sleeve to turn because the firing pin won't turn. The safety cuts in the firing pin won't allow it. (I am beginning to wonder if that Steyr rifle might not be a standard 98 Mauser.)

Anyway, I will suggest one idea. Get a drift punch that will fit into the firing pin hole from the front. Fasten the punch in a vise and press the bolt down so that the punch goes through the hole and pushes back on the firing pin. Then try to unscrew the bolt sleeve.

Let me know what happens.

Jim

 

[Barrelmaker]

#3 should read- Place the safety in the fire position to clear the striker assy. when compressing the firing pin spring.

 

[Wildalaska]

Mail it to us.

WildwewillfixAlaska

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Barrelmaker,

No, I meant what I said. Keeping the safety in the center position not only allows the thumb to push on the safety itself which is the easiest way to push the bolt sleeve, but it eliminates the separate step of retracting the cocking piece to reset the safety so the assembly can be inserted into the bolt body.

Jim

 

[Barrelmaker]

oops! Yer right!

 

[Lochaber]

Every mauser owner will eventually take their bolt out of the gun without correctly setting the safety first, and then try to take the bolt apart. It happens. It is not clear to me if the original poster has the safety on the shroud or not. If he does, then a simple fix it to place in the correct (middle position) by grasping the bolt in one hand, using the edge of a bench or something similar to cock the cocking piece and the twist the safety into the middle position.

Loch

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Homeka45 and guys,

I have done some more analysis and I think I know what happened. First, anyone with a Mauser 98 bolt, take a look at the firing pin. At the front of the flange that supports the spring, you will see two cams. These are one of several improvements that made up the Mauser 98 package, different from previous Mausers. Those cams can fit into mating cuts on the inside of the bolt body only when the bolt is fully locked; otherwise, they stop the firing pin from going forward to fire a round. The purpose is to prevent the rifle from firing if the firing pin breaks at the back and flies forward when the bolt is not locked. They are also angled on one side so they act to try to cam the bolt closed. If you want to see how it works, the bottom cam is visible through the rear gas escape port.

In this case, Homeka45 inserted the firing pin into the bolt, which forced the cams into the corresponding cuts inside the bolt body. Then he compressed the spring with the bolt sleeve and managed to turn the bolt sleeve and firing pin. That is very hard to do, but it appears to be possible with a lot of force because of the way the little cams are angled. But the other side of the cams is straight, so it is not possible to turn the firing pin back the other way as long as the cams are engaged in the bolt cuts. So the bolt sleeve cannot be unscrewed.

In that situation, the only way to unscrew the bolt sleeve is to push the firing pin back out of the bolt cuts. I suggested trying to press the firing pin to the rear using a punch through the firing pin hole in the bolt face.

On further consideration, it might be better to insert a small screwdriver into either the rear gas escape port or into the firing pin lugs that are visible through the cocking piece slot in the bolt sleeve, and push the firing pin back. Either method should allow the bolt sleeve to be unscrewed.

Jim

 

[gamachinist]

From what I have read,including that the pin was inserted unattached to the cocking piece/bolt shroud,I think Jim has probably got it right!

But the cams on the front of the firing pin are more likely for the "cock on opening " feature that came on the 1898 Mauser?
Anyway,this sounds like a three handed job to me.So find a friend,put a punch in a vise with the small end sticking up enough to compress the spring through the firing pin hole,use your two hands to push downward while a buddy unscrews the cocking piece?
Regards,Robert.

 

[homeka45]

Barrelmaker, thanks for your input, I tried what you recommended and was unsuccessful.
Sleeping Dog, the safety wasn't on but is easy to fit onto the bolt sleeve from the right side, the cocking sleeve(the piece that interacts with the trigger) is not attached.
WildAlaska, I will send it to you if all else fails, Thank you for your offer.
Lochaber, thank you for your time and suggestions.
Thanks Jim for giving so much thought and effort towards solving this Snafu, it sounds like you've got things figured out to a Tee. I'll follow your advice.
Machinist, I'll try and convince my wife to help me, maybe working on this will help ease the illwill engendered by the rifles history.

P.S.- It's supposed to be a standard large-ring mauser '98 type rifle, cal. 7x57.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

Do you have the bolt in pieces? I use a vise, opened to 1/4", enough to allow the front of the firing pin to fit between the jaws, but stop at the firing pin spring shoulder. With the firing pin there, front down, rear up, drop the spring over the firing pin. Then put the shroud (big rear thing) over the firing pin. Then put the safety on the shroud, pointing halfway between safe and fire (straight up, if it was on the gun). Then hold the cocking piece in one hand, and (easier with a glove) with the other hand push the shroud down the pin, compressing the spring. All the way down. Then slip the cocking piece over the pin, 90 degrees away from the final position (the final position will have the sear-interacting surface sliding in the slot in the shroud. Once the rear of the firing pin is at the upper end of the cocking piece, you should be able to turn the cocking piece 90 degrees so it lines up with the shroud slot. Then ease the pressure on the shroud so the slot fits with the cocking piece. Now, the firing pin assembly is complete.

So, screw the firing pin assembly into the bolt body. When it's all the way in, push the shroud plunger and see if it'll screw in another full turn. It should now be assembled and in an uncocked position.

Grab the bolt body with a gloved hand and turn the bolt handle counter-clockwise to cock the thing. Then it should go into the rifle.

That should work. If it just goes "click" at the range, you probably forgot to push the plunger and screw the shroud on that last full turn (experience).

Regards.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, GAMACHINIST and Homeka45,

Homeka45, I think the best place to reach the firing pin is by way of the slot in the bottom of the bolt sleeve. You can actually see the firing pin lugs through there and it is easy to pull it back while turning the bolt sleeve.

In case you are wondering, yes, I duplicated what you did, at the risk of messing up my own bolt, and I solved the problem first by going through the firing pin hole and then going through the bolt sleeve. I was a little afraid I had made a wrong diagnosis and we would both end up sending bolts to Wildalaska, but it didn't work that way and my VZ24 bolt is back together OK.

GAMACHINIST, the cams have nothing to do with cock on opening. The Mauser 1896 U.S. patent says they are to prevent firing if the firing pin breaks at the locking lugs at the rear. I suppose they must have actually had such a thing happen with an older Mauser, but I know of no other rifle that was designed to cover that situation. Mostly the cocking cam is depended on to stop a firing pin from going forward until the bolt is locked, but that assumes the cocking piece is still attached to the firing pin. If it is not (if it is broken) on other actions the gun will fire unlocked.

It just shows the ingenuity and completeness of the Mauser 98 design and why it has proven so hard to make anything better even after a century.

(Another invisible feature of the Mauser 98 is the undercut extractor, which is made to clamp down tighter on the cartridge rim the harder the bolt is pulled to the rear. AFAIK, no one has ever duplicated that either.)

Jim

 

[homeka45]

Well things seemed to be just fine, went to sears and got a 1/16" punch to put in the vise, placed the bolt on top to retract the firing pin so I could rotate the bolt sleeve, pow!, the punch breaks off in the bolt body and seems to be wedged between the firing pin and the bolt body. I counted to ten, then twenty, put everything down and walked away.
Jim, I see what you mean by being able to see the bolt lugs through the bottom of the bolt sleeve, did you pry back on them with a screwdrinver like you suggested? and once the pin was back how did you keep it retracted? I'm a short ways from sending the bolt and parts off for a trip to sunny alaska.
Sleeping Dog, didn't get to read your last post until after the above mishap but thanks for the help.

 

[gamachinist]

homeka45,
I'm sorry my way led to more troubles for you.
I suppose I should have told you to only leave just enough punch sticking up so that it wouldn't bend.Even then,I wouldn't have thought it would break easily.

I would suggest you send it to me,let me undo the mistake I made (at no charge!),but since you are in HI,AK may be faster.My email is in my profile if you want to contact me ,even to tell me I'm not so smart!

Good luck,and sorry for the problem.
Regards,Robert.

 

[homeka45]

gamachinist, not your fault, the hex reigns, my feeble powers are no match for it.