Met an Anti yesterday.......

[45R]

Met an Anti yesturday.......

Last night I was having dinner with the girlfriends family and one of her sisters friends showed up.

We were all still having a great time until the "friend" (Stacy) found out that both 45Boo and I had guns. She started telling me how guns were bad and that her uncle was a cop and toted one around all the time, even in the house. It must have made him feel big and bad, what does he need a gun in the house for?

Anyways she started saying how guns kill people and blah blah blah. Well I didnt really go into it with her since we were having dinner and I didnt want a get in a big rucuss over it. The converstaion came up about a woman who was raped and killed in her own bed. I told Stacy that it would have been a perfect example of having a gun in your home. To protect people from deeds like that.

Well she continued to tell me that its not right to kill people and that would make you a murderer. So I asked her if it was you in that bed and you had a handgun between you and the rapist what would you do?

She stated that she couldnt do it. So I asked her... Would you rather be raped? She stated again... I couldnt do it.

So Stacy..... say that girl that was raped and killed in her bed was your daughter and you could prevent the rape from happening by picking up a handgun.

She said wouldnt do it. Everyone sitting around me said they would save their child. Even some one the slightly marginal gun control people that were sitting around me.

I was somewhat in disbelieve that I have met someone that would rather be a victim to a hanus crime then take the opportunity to fend for themselves and the ones they loved. In all fairness I even asked her if she had ever shot a gun or held one before and she stated that she refused to even touch one. Guns help people kill each other she said. It helps make the killing deed much easier. With a knife people have to think twice. Its messy and you have to get in close to do murder someone.

I stated your know your right, knives are messy and teeth are expensive I'll take the gun thank you. If guns were not available to the masses people would be killed with sticks and stones. Thats just human nature. The Whole time I was wearing my Molon Labe hat. Well at this point my girlfriends mom butted in to stop the friendly debate because her husband jump into the Pro side and Stacy was getting put on the spot.

So now I've met one of "them" and I must say I just don't understand that type of mindset. She would rather be killed than pick up an instrument that can merely help save her life and prevent her from being violated by some criminal. Of all the places she resides. Its in Arizona.

I've read accounts about people from the M.M. forum and now I can confirm that such people occupy the same space and breathe the same air that you I do.

So who have you met and what discussions have you had. Anything similar?

 

[Leatherneck]

Never got into discussion with anyone that amoral; I try to keep to a better class of people. So, did you upchuck on her?

TC
TFL Survivor

 

[Top_Notch]

Her fierce denial of what she wouldn't do in that situation as opposed to what what she would actually do in that situation are probably two different things.

 

[Red Dane]

People like that need to be put on the spot, sort of like sunlight in a vampire's lair

 

[benEzra]

The ironic thing about her position is that she would probably advocate threatening YOU with imprisonment (or death) by proxy in order to make you conform to her political views on gun ownership. A lot of anti's believe they are pacifists, but the laws they want to bring about will be enforced at gunpoint, if necessary.

 

[Justin]

benEzra-

Bingo.

 

[joeoim]

She's not facing reality

What Top_Notch said.

She's a hipocrite

Or she would have to be one sick individual to allow someone rape then kill her daughter while she didn't stop it, even tho she had a gun.
If that's what she wants to think, let her.
I'm betting she would come around.


I've met a few. Don't know if they would go that far as to say they would not protect their own daughter. I don't let them wast my time with that hogwash.

Joe

 

[spartacus2002]

I have a gay relative who lives in Europe, doesn't like guns, but isn't tremendously opposed to them either; he just doesn't see the average person's need for them.

I asked him if he remembered the story of Matthew Sheppard (sp?), the gay kid beaten and left to die of exposure on the fence. I then said, would he still be alive if he had a gun on him that night?

You could see the gears turning, and he became just a little more pro RKBA...

 

[Mikul]

This person is a pathetic excuse for a human being. No one with any love in their heart stands by with the power to help someone close to them and lets it happen. Perhaps just as bad is the fact that she'd likely call the police to come and shoot the guy because she didn't feel like getting her hands dirty.

 

[HankB]

I had a discussion with one such "anti" who admitted she wouldn't defend either herself OR a family member if it meant touching a gun.

My response "So . . . no only do you have low SELF esteem - you're life is worth less than a mugger in even your OWN mind - but you think very little of your husband or children, either. Have you at least had the decency to TELL them that you've decided their lives mean so little to you, so they'd at least know how worthless you are to them?"

The response was a string of profanity.

And a lot of laughter from onlookers.

 

[Crownvicman]

Hankb, that is a great reply. The anti-gun position is an amoral position

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Reminds me of a discussion I had with an anti. I pointed out that collective self-defense is also important and said, "If all the Jews had had guns, they could have resisted the Nazis."

And this Einstein blurted out, "If they'd RESISTED, they'd have all been killed!"

 

[George Hill]

HANKB - You get a Trophy.

 

[Paladin7]

What I find ironic about your conversation is that more people in the US are murdered with steak knives, like the one she probably had in her hand at the time of your conversation, than guns. Yet, heaven forbid she touch a gun.

What set of properties does a gun have that make it more inherently evil than the steak knife?

I think you have just encountered a case of "Post Modern" Thought rearing its ugly head. This just another example of a very active culture war occuring in the US...wake up folks.

- Paladin7

 

[Nightfall]

So Stacy..... say that girl that was raped and killed in her bed was your daughter and you could prevent the rape from happening by picking up a handgun.

She said wouldnt do it.

That is just disturbing. And this is what is being advocated by gun control nuts as the sane choice? What is happening to this nation?

 

[ChickenHawk]

HankB posted:

So . . . not only do you have low SELF esteem - you're life is worth less than a mugger in even your OWN mind - but you think very little of your husband or children, either

Wow! I've never heard it stated that way before. That is a powerful argument!

Beyond that, I agree with Top_Notch. Faced with the actual event she would grab the gun. I'm sure there are people who would just freeze out of fear (that's another issue entirely) but if she had the opportunity to defend her life (or her loved one) with any available weapon she would do it.

Cheers,
ChickenHawk

 

[Bainx]

Why do you think they call them "sheeple"?

 

[harpethriver]

We as humans have been blessed with the ability to reason. Some are unable or unwilling to utilize that gift. In many instances that requires the individual to actually think. We should pity this person because she is clearly a product of an environmnent that taught her what to think but not how to think. She probably fancies herself as intelligent, but in reality is a spineless, lazy, intellectual elitist. Sheeple? No, she strikes me as being more of a lemming squad commander.

 

[ceetee]

Originally posted by Nightfall

What is happening to this nation?

Americans in general are becoming lazy, self-indulgent cretins. A person like this has never been in any situation more trying than, say... looking in the freezer to find that she's run out Ben and Jerry's...

My wife works as a boot-camp drill instructor for youthful offenders. Every once in a while, usually on weekends, a child will be brought in by his/her parents. These kids are not "bad enough" to be in jail; they're the kids who are disruptive in class, have threatened their teachers, or been suspended for something. The drill instructors place them in with the regular inmates, treat them just the same. The kids are shown what happens to "the bad kids." Very few come back as inmates.

We need a place to take such pollyannas... a hard place, where people eke out a living by the skin of their teeth. We need to let them see and feel what things would be like if Americans had no ability to defend themselves.

We need to show them that only through great sacrifice was America born, and the price of our freedom truly is eternal vigilance...

 

[rde]

Most of the anti's that I have run into and had discussions with seem to me to have trouble being able to seperate 2 basic things. They are philisophically (emotionally, intellectually, etc.) opposed to violence (bad things) in any shape or form. I find nothing wrong with this per se. But this is not seperated from the fact and the reality that it is sometimes necessary to survive. A lesson taught throughout nature and the history of man (though in many cases taught but not learned). More simply, their opposition on its own merits is not going to stop others from hurting people period. So facing simple reality means of defense is necessary at a personal, community, and nation level.

I generally try to get them to seperate the 2 basic concepts through calm discussion. Usually this works to some degree. But most will bail out at this point in time claiming that the police and the military are the professionals put in place by society to protect us. Which leaves out the personal protection level entirely. I normally do not push past this point in a first discussion because if I have been able to get them to see the 2 seperate issues a big step in the right direction has been made. Later discussions I may reinforce this then begin working in personal protection into the formula at some level piece by piece.

And I haven't converted a single one yet. But I keep trying when a calm rational opportunity presents itself. (Sigh)

 

[Billmanweh]

Could it have been a religious objection? Isn't one of the basic tennants of christianity to turn the other cheek and forgive? There's the bible story where the men come to take jesus to his death and peter cuts the guard's ear off with his sword. Jesus tells him "no more of this" and restores the ear.

So from that point of view, I can absolutely understand someone who will not take a life to defend their own. But when it comes to another person at risk, I think it becomes more difficult to understand.

 

[Zundfolge]

She said wouldnt do it.

She lied. She knows she'll never have to prove it so she lied to win the argument.

I once got in an argument about gun control with a 'pacifist'. I said "even the Dali Lama says if someone is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back", he insisted he would 'never resort to violence'.

So I shoved him ... he shoved me back, doubled up his fist and took a poke at me.

I blocked and called him a hypocrite ... so he left

 

[4v50 Gary]

Excellent point 45R. Let Stacy's wheels spin a bit. Throw in Hank's arguments too and give her a nice, wholesome headache.

 

[geekWithA.45]

The gun bigot's position isn't _A_moral, (meaning, having no morality) it is in fact _I_mmoral, (meaning, being against morality)

I can't properly describe a position that calls for victim disarmament, predator empowerment, tyrant enablement, genocide facilitation, and general oppression of the Rights and Prerogatives of the People any other way.

If this woman chooses to sacrifice herself to the next predator to wander by, and suffer what she believes is some sort of martyrdom, well, that's her prerogative. Sad, to be sure, but who are we to judge?

She crosses the line when she insists that others accompany her in her victimhood, and insist that we don't have the right to take care of business because she chooses not to.

She has no right to enforce her immorality upon anyone else.

In the larger scheme of things, she does society a disservice by encouraging the predator to strike again. While I won't encumber her with a duty to actively and vigorously discourage predation with lethal force, she better report the crime when he's done.

I've said it a million times, and here I go again:

There is no virtue in helplessness.

 

[Black Snowman]

I'm fortunate that my parents raised me to think because school sure as heck didn't. It nearly had me brainwashed by the time I got out of High School. Fortunately a Remington 11-87 was wrapped up nice and purty for me on my 18th birthday

High School is where I learned several things:
1) Everyone has an agenda.
2) People will stick up for their peers even if they know their wrong and it will have negative consequences to someone else.
3) Understanding psychology and language are critical to filtering out the garbage people claim.

I think it was a phychology class where we discussed advertising. Best 50 minutes I ever got out of high school. The teacher took us through disecting the statements and analysing the conotation versus the facts. For example words like "help" added to any statement negate any meaning it has as there is no quantifiable definition. Help in advertising means something may, or may not make a differance for some instances.

Antis go through life ignoring the truth and absorbing the conotation without any research. People trying to influence the masses know this and know it well.

I read an article about air travel that stated that almost 10,000 lives had been lost in the last decade and how horribly unacceptable this was. That breaks down to less than a 1000 people a year, worldwide, industrywide, ever size shape and description of aircraft. But the author didn't mention what an infintesimle percentage this was of those transported, or how an equal amound of federal spending elsewhere would make a much great impact, but I bet most people who read that article would have seen 10,000, said "oh my what a big number" and been afraid to fly, instead getting killed in a car accident which causes more deaths than that in a single year, just in the US.

What if that article was written by someone in bus, train, or automotive industry? How many people would ever bother checking up on the writers intent much less notice it's glaring inconsistancies.

After that small lecture I looked into every claim made about nearly everything before making a decsion on my own. Really pisses off those who would want our decendants to have to raise up in bloody revolt to get back the rights they're trying to piss away. Obviously they hate their great great grandchildren (if it would even take that many generations).