Militias

[DontBurnMyFlag]

Ok, My second amendment right allows me to create and maintain a militia. At least in my interpretation Well anyway, how many of you have an organized group of citizens ready to fight for this country and its peoples rights against enemies foreign or domestic. Even if you dont want to call yourselves a militia, who has a tight group of friends who love thier country dearly and will defend it at a moments notice. I know I do

 

[Taipei Personality]

It's quite common in free states: http://www.ncmilitia.org/

South Carolina has quite a large militia, but I can't find their web page offhand.

See also http://www.constitution.org/mil/cs_milit.htm for more information.

 

[Molon Labe]

I started this militia group in SW Ohio a couple of years ago:

http://champaigncounty.tripod.com

We're still going strong.

 

[mustanger98]

allows me to create and maintain a militia. At least in my interpretation

Ummm, no. The 2A says "A well regulated militia being necessary... the RKBA shall not be infringed". We, the armed citizens, are not necessarily supposed to create standing armies under the "militia" terminology, but we are guaranteed the right to KBA as part of the unorganized militia from which fighting troops may be drawn, or may assemble themeselves, in a serious Stateside emergency.

The way I look at it, I'm a sportsman first, but if I and my rifle are needed elsewhere, that's where we go.

 

[atk]

While I agree with mustanger98, check out www.sgaus.org (State Guard Association of the United States). There are organized militias all over.

It's quite common in free states

Taipei Personality, Massachusetts has an organized militia (the Massachusetts Volunteer Militia). We operate under the orders of the Governor of the Commonwealth, and the orders of the Adjutant General of the National Guard (Major General Keefe, I believe).

 

[mainmech48]

No offence intended, but I don't believe that anything in Article II could lead one to believe that he may "create and maintain" a militia.

What it does recognize is that, as all persons of 'military' age are, defacto, part of our country's "militia", their right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Def. (From "The American Heritage Dictionary", 10th edition:

"militia: n Those who are not members of the regular armed forces, but who are called to military service in an emergency."

Our duty here is to equip ourselves with suitable arms and "regulate", or train, ourselves to be proficient in their use and care.

" regulate: v. 1. To control or direct according to a rule. 2. To adjust in conformity to a specification or requirement. 3. To adjust for accurate or proper functioning."

IMO, definition #2 is the operative one. We are to train ourselves to meet or exceed the standard of proficiency required of members of the armed forces in marksmanship against the day that we might be called upon to exercise that skill in defense of our nation from enemies foreign or domestic.

It is not incumbent upon us that we acquire uniforms, organize units, be able to perform "parade" drills, drill ourselves in the execution of infantry tactical manuevers, nor train to hump an 89# 'combat load' of gear over hill and dale. That sort of thing was pretty much delegated to the "organized" militia when the National Guard was established.

You are, of course, free to do so if that sort of thing 'floats yer boat'. Personally, I was happy to give all that up when I was mustered-out thiry-five years ago.

 

[Taipei Personality]

Taipei Personality, Massachusetts has an organized militia (the Massachusetts Volunteer Militia). We operate under the orders of the Governor of the Commonwealth, and the orders of the Adjutant General of the National Guard (Major General Keefe, I believe).

An interesting fact, but why did you address it to me?

 

[Tory]

And WHERE is this authority found?

"Ok, My second amendment right allows me to create and maintain a militia."

Never mind your "second amendment;" where does the real Constitution provide for individuals to raise private armies under the guise of militia?

"At least in my interpretation"

Oh - fantasy/role-playing....

Try reading 10 USC 311 (the militia act), your state's statutes regarding the militia and Presser v. Illinois . THEN come tell us all about "your" militia...


On another point:

"Massachusetts has an organized militia (the Massachusetts Volunteer Militia)."

Is the MVM authorized to carry arms in the performance of its duties? If not, it's fundamentally useless in performing the primary purpose of the real militia.

 

[30 cal slob]

Joining a militia = easy way for a person to get scrutinized by federal law enforcement, IMHO.

I'm not knocking them, though.

 

[Molon Labe]

No offence intended, but I don't believe that anything in Article II could lead one to believe that he may "create and maintain" a militia.

Where does the real Constitution provide for individuals to raise private armies under the guise of militia?

We live in a society where, if a law doesn't say you can't, then you can.

There's no law that says I can't create a militia. Hence I can. In fact, I did:

http://champaigncounty.tripod.com

 

[Molon Labe]

Joining a militia = easy way for a person to get scrutinized by federal law enforcement, IMHO.

So what? I refuse to live in fear of anyone or anything, especially the government. I formed a militia, and I couldn't care less what the government thinks...

 

[Tory]

Delusions

"There's no law that says I can't create a militia."

WRONG. See the US Constitution; Article 1, section 8, clauses 15 and 16. Congress - once again, in case you missed it - Congress has the right to call forth, arm and maintain a militia. It is also responsible for "...organizing, arming and disciplining..." the militia. There is NO provision for individuals fomenting their own personal legions.

In short, you and your buds are just "playing army."

 

[FSCJedi]

Molon Labe, I'll drink to that. Here here!

 

[Molon Labe]

WRONG. Congress has the right to call forth, arm and maintain a militia. It is also responsible for "...organizing, arming and disciplining..." the militia.

Well good for Congress. But where does it say I can't form a militia?

And yea yea, I see where the Constitution says Congress is "…responsible for organizing, arming, disciplining… the militia." Well it's obviously not doing its job. After all, I am a member of the unorganized militia (at least according to the U.S. Code and the Ohio Revised Code), yet Congress would laugh in my face if I insisted it buy me a rifle. So I have no choice but to assume Congress is grossly negligent in its "responsibility" for arming and disciplining the unorganized militia, and therefore it is incumbent upon people like me to step in and assume responsibility...

 

[lwsimon]

I've no problem with militias. As far as I can tell, they are perfectly legal. Where militias have gotten into trouble in the past is by "laying claim" to NFA weapons and such. Most of the time, its overlooked by the BATF, but not always. Its kinda like the put a little flag in their file, then if they ever need you for anything, they can lord it over their head.

A group of citizens training together and practicing together is a great idea - kind of like a grown-up Boy Scouts, and I don't mean that in a derogatory way. Anytime you bring patriotic, like-minded people together for fun and indulging in similar interests, it is a good thing.

The Militia of Washington County is near me, their website is www.arkansasmilitia.com. They have a small cannon and a guy holding a 9mm Sten on their website. They are good citizens, and do charity work in the community. They have a legal-ese document they sent to the governor saying they are ready to be commanded, and "formally" laying claim to weapons. It seems to me to be more of a country club than a military organization, and they are treading a fine line thumbing their nose at the federal gun control laws. I'll support them morally, but I'm not going to contribute monetarily or by being there, if there ever was a time when the US needed defended from inside, I'd rather not be immediately deemed part of a para-military organization.

 

[Bear Gulch]

Plus 1 for Molon!

Another way is to be a FFL.

 

[Zundfolge]

There's no law that says I can't create a militia.

No Federal law, but many state laws

source (sec 5.2)

5.2 Which states have laws regulating or prohibiting unauthorized paramilitary organization?

A. The New York Times (5/10/95) states:

"The rise of so-called militia organizations has come despite laws in 41 states that bar or regulate armed paramilitary groups...Twenty-four states have laws banning private military organizations or militias and 24, including 7 with anti-militia laws, have laws banning private paramilitary training that is meant to or likely to produce civil disorder ...There is a long legal history to militia issues, dating back to 1886 when the Supreme Court ruled in Presser v. Illinois that an Illinois law was constitutional."

The laws clearly distinguish paramilitary groups from Boy Scouts and hunting clubs organized for lawful purposes. They have been used to stop the KKK and other white supremacist organizations in the early 80's, and against the Texas Emergency Reserve in 1982. States without anti-militia OR anti-paramilitary laws are: Hawaii, Alaska, Utah, S.Dakota, Wisconsin, Ohio, Vermont, Delaware. [This list is not definitive - check your own state law]

The state laws fall into a number of categories. Some states have no laws regarding unauthorized military groups. Some, such as Connecticut, require the groups to register with the state and annually file a membership list. Others ban unauthorized military organizations regardless of the purpose of the organization. Some states only ban these organizations if the purpose of the group is meant to or likely to produce civil disorder. Many of these same states prohibit parading by unauthorized armed groups through towns or cities.

Here is a listing of the statutory sources for each state law.

States with Both Anti-Militia and Anti-Paramilitary Training Laws (7)

-Florida. FLA. STAT. ANN. ch. 870.06, 790.29.
-Georgia. GA. CODE ANN. ss 38-2-277, 16-11-150 to -152.
-Idaho. IDAHO CODE ss 46-802, 18-8101 to -8105.
-Illinois. ILL. REV. STAT. ch. 1805, para. 94-95.
-New York. N.Y. MIL. LAW s 240.
-North Carolina. N.C. GEN. STAT. ss 127A-151, 14-288.20.
-Rhode Island. R.I. GEN. LAWS ss 30-12-7, 11-55-1 to -3.

States with Anti-Militia Laws Only (17)

-Alabama. ALA. CODE s 31-2-125.
-Arizona. ARIZ. REV. STAT. ANN. s 26-123.
-Iowa. IOWA CODE s 29A.31.
-Kansas. KAN. STAT. ANN. s 48-203.
-Kentucky. KY. REV. STAT. ANN. s 38.440.
-Maine. ME. REV. STAT. ANN. tit. 37-B, s 342.2.
-Maryland. MD. CODE ANN. art. 65, s 35.
-Massachusetts. MASS. GEN. L. ch. 33, s 129-132.
-Minnesota. MINN. STAT. s 624.61.
-Mississippi. MISS. CODE ANN. $ 33-1-31.
-Nevada. NEV. REV. STAT. s 203-080.
-New Hampshire. N.H. REV. STAT. ANN. s 111:15.
-North Dakota. N.D. CENT. CODE s 37-01-21.
-Texas. TEX. GOV'T CODE ANN. s 431.010.
-Washington. WASH. REV. CODE s 38.40.120.
-West Virginia. W. VA. CODE s 15-1F-7.
-Wyoming. WYO. STAT. s 19-1-106.


States with Anti-Paramilitary Training Laws Only (17)

-Arkansas. ARK. CODE s 5-71-301 to -303.
-California. CAL. PENAL CODE s 11460.
-Colorado. COLO. REV. STAT. s 18-9-120.
-Connecticut. CONN. GEN. STAT. s 53-206b.
-Louisiana. LA. REV. STAT. ANN. s 117.1.
-Michigan. MICH. COMP. LAWS s 750.528a.
-Missouri. MO. REV. STAT. s 574.070.
-Montana. MONT. CODE ANN. s 45-8-109.
-Nebraska. NEB. REV. STAT. s 28-1480 to -1482.
-New Jersey. N.J. REV. STAT. s 2C:39-14.
-New Mexico. N.M. STAT. ANN. s 30-20A-1 to -4.
-Oklahoma. OKLA. STAT. ANN. tit. 21, s 1321.10.
-Oregon. OR. REV. STAT. s 166.660.
-Pennsylvania. 18 PA. CONS. STAT. s 5515.
-South Carolina. S.C. CODE ANN. s 16-8-10 to -30.
-Tennessee. TENN. CODE ANN. s 39-17-314.
-Virginia. VA. CODE ANN. s 18.2-433.1 to -433.3.

Keep in mind that this data is from the Anti Defimation League so they have no reason to sugar coat it for us.

 

[richyoung]

"...where does the real Constitution provide for individuals to raise private armies under the guise of militia?"

Tsk, tsk - how little they teach of history these days...

From section 8 of the Constitution:

"To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning
Captures on Land and Water;"

For those of you scratching your head and saying, "So what?", a little edification is in order - a "letter of marque", (and similarly, of reprisal) is essentially a license granted to PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS AND INDIVIDUALS to wage war on the vessels and territories of another nation, and to keep a portion of the spoils in return. This power would be MEANINGLESS, unless private individuals were allowed to arm ships and raise their own private militias - otherwise, to whom would one issue such a letter? That's right, private folks and corporations were allowed to use their privately armed (ostensibly for "self defense"), privately owned ships to indulge in a little soldier of fortune free-market commerce raiding, and also to raid on land, either as a landing party from said ships, or with no naval connection at all. Want a ship built just like "Old Ironsides"? Including the guns? If you had the money, no problem! And if a shooting war breaks out, you can even petition Congress to let you go play privateer with it. All spelled out there in black and white in the very Constitution itself. I presume this meets the rquired standards of proof?

 

[richyoung]

"5.2 Which states have laws regulating or prohibiting unauthorized paramilitary organization?"

I would think such laws could not stand modern scrutiny on constitutionality - the "right to peacably assemble" , 2A issues, and incorporation issues alone, IF the SCOTUS could be trusted to rule according to U.S. law, would sink them.

 

[Tory]

Appallingly poor analysis

We are told that the Constitution allows individuals to raise militia. What the claimant blatantly ignores, even while quoting the language in question, is the actual SOURCE of that authority: Congress, via the Constitution.

Here's the "rquired [sic] standards of proof," from the misguided claimant himself:

"From ection 8 of the Constitution:

[Congressional authority]

'To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;;"

Got that? CONGRESS authorizes issuance of Letters of Marque and Reprisal; not some wanna-be with a dinghy and signal cannon.

Specifically:

"...a license granted to private organizations and individuals to wage war on the vessels and territories of another nation, and to keep a portion of the spoils in return."

To make it VERY simple; no Congressional license; no authority; no "militia" with any Federal standing. Grasp the concept....

As for militias falling under the First Amendment right to "peaceably assemble," I think "peaceably" would be the operative term. It certainly did not cover clowns like Presser or the KKK, to name but two such examples.

 

[.45&TKD]

But where does it say I can't form a militia?

I believe the Arizona Constitution says soemthing about individuals not being allowed to form an army.

I don't have time to look it up right now.

 

[Molon Labe]

Zundfolge, .45&TKD, et al: That list has been circulating for years. A few points:

1. It is my understanding that "anti-paramilitary/anti-militia laws" were originally enacted in response to manufacturing companies in the 1930's who employed "private armies" to harass striking workers. Not that (in theory) such laws couldn't be used against today's militias...

2. In theory I could see such laws being used against private militias or private armies. But as long as a militia says it is existing as part of the unorganized militia as defined in the U.S. Code and/or State Code, then I see no problem. Note that the militia I formed is called the Unorganized Militia of Champaign County, thus unambiguously associating it with the unorganized militia as defined in the U.S. Code and Ohio Revised Code.

3. If a state ever did try to use an anti-militia law to bust up militias, the militias would respond by not calling themselves militias anymore; they would simply be a shooting club or whatever.

 

[.45&TKD]

Note that the militia I formed is called the Unorganized Militia of Champaign County

Molon Labe

I think that is great! How many members do you have?

And how do you pronounce "Molon Labe", (I know what it means).

 

[30 cal slob]

So what? I refuse to live in fear of anyone or anything, especially the government. I formed a militia, and I couldn't care less what the government thinks...

I do care. Deeply. There is going to be a time when the ADL and the like raises a fuss, someone's gonna go postal with a gun, the media will cry out for a scapegoat and it will be a perfect opportunity for CLOG (Commie Lib Occupational Government) to send in its jack-booted thugs and black helicopters in to pre-emptively round up militia-minded folks.

What I am saying here is ...

If you're gonna be in a militia ...

Keep it (and its membership) secret fer crying out loud - and never underestimate the reach of internet chat boards. Stay away from the limelight and the media - they are not your friends. Don't unwittingly give your enemies information on a silver platter!

As for myself, I would be useless in a militia. I shoot a lot, but I have zero formal military or law enforcement training. As eager as I am to learn, I'm not confident I could retain a lot of knowledge/skill without training full-time. And I'm trying to work off this dang beer gut.

To be quite frank, when the biosolids do intersect the air circulator, and the Blackhawks swoop down on my house blaring Wagner ... the first thing I will likely do is execute a tactical ... change of underwear.

 

[Molon Labe]

Tory: I think you're missing the boat here, so to speak.

The U.S. Code says I'm a member of the unorganized militia.
The Ohio Revised Code says I'm a member of the unorganized militia.
The U.S. Code says my buddy is a member of the unorganized militia.
The Ohio Revised Code says my buddy is a member of the unorganized militia.

Then my buddy and I look at each other. "Well damn, if we're members of the unorganized militia, then I guess we better train!"

Do you see what I'm getting at? Uncle Sam and Uncle Buckeye told us we're in the militia. So would it not be incumbent upon us to train? Seems like the patriotic thing to do, if you ask me. After all, if we get called up for duty (which the fed or state can do, BTW), would it not be a valuabe thing to already have some training under our belts?

I think I see the problem: people think militias are rogue groups of armed men bent on fighting a tyrannical government. Nope, sorry - that is not the primary purpose of the unorganized militia. I make it very clear to everyone in our group that, while it is conceivable we may one day have to fight a government-gone-bad, we are first-and-foremost operating & training as the unorganized militia as defined in the U.S. Code and Ohio Revised Code.