Milsurp Help

[Catpop]

I have this old milsurp I bought years ago when a local roses went out of business. I need a little help identifying it.
Bore seem to be very close to .30 cal.
Bore is frosty, but rifling stands proud
I’m thinking a rimless bottle neck cartridge judging from top load box magazine.
No crest on top of receiver
Sn on side of receiver starts with UT or could be OT with top of O missing
All parts except safety shroud matching numbers
Action is cock on closing
Cleaning rod has release under stock behind rear barrel band.
No trap door in steel but plate
OAL 47 1/2”
Barrel L 21”-22” not sure as I do not have a rod on hand to put down muzzle on the closed bolt.

More info: since I had 7 & 8 mm Mauser cartridges on hand I tried them (not fired!) . There is a block (spacer) in front of magazine well that prevents both Mauser cartridges from down into magazine. So thinking no on those two.
Also the 7mm flops in bore and the 8mm appears to be too large.
.308 fits bore, fits in magazine and chambers fine

Any help appreciated!
Catpop

 

[BigBlue 94]

Looks like a mauser. Could be 7x57 if under .30 or 7.65 if just over .30

 

[denton]

Mauser, probably the "sneak" version without country of origin marks.

Don't think it is 7.65, since it does not have the magazine bottom release in the bow of the trigger guard.

Probably 8x57 or 7x57. Nice rifle in either case.

 

[kje54]

I have this old milsurp I bought years ago when a local roses went out of business. I need a little help identifying it.
Bore seem to be very close to .30 cal.
I’m thinking a rimless bottle neck cartridge judging from top load box magazine.
No crest on top of receiver
Sn on side of receiver starts with UT or could be OT with top of O missing
All parts except safety shroud matching numbers
Cleaning rod has release under stock behind rear barrel band.
No trap door in steel but plate
OAL 47 1/2”
Barrel L 31-22”
Maybe a 7.65 ?View attachment 1052852View attachment 1052853
Any help appreciated!
Catpop

That looks a lot like a G33/40 Mauser mountain carbine. They were often sold off after WWII to quite a few nations.

 

[Alaskan Ironworker]

Hard to tell without a better picture, but it looks like a small ring mauser, so it’s probably not chambered in 8x57. It appears to be a cock on close action, so im thinking its a model 95? Does it have a “lockup” lug directly behind the bolt handle? What does the bolt race way look like, and is the bottom of the bolt flat?

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Photos are not quite detailed enough to tell if the bolt shroud is 93/95 or 98, but I'm guessing the former -- is it cock on close?

Any markings at all on the receiver ring besides SN? Or on the left side of the receiver in front of the stripper thumb notch? Use a magnifier and strong light, in case they've been scrubbed at some point.

Have you taken the action from the stock to check the barrel and underside of the receiver for proof marks?

 

[Terry G]

I have this old milsurp I bought years ago when a local roses went out of business. I need a little help identifying it.
Bore seem to be very close to .30 cal.
I’m thinking a rimless bottle neck cartridge judging from top load box magazine.
No crest on top of receiver
Sn on side of receiver starts with UT or could be OT with top of O missing
All parts except safety shroud matching numbers
Cleaning rod has release under stock behind rear barrel band.
No trap door in steel but plate
OAL 47 1/2”
Barrel L 31-22”
Maybe a 7.65 ?View attachment 1052852View attachment 1052853
Any help appreciated!
Catpop

I have one of those. It's 7X57 MM. They came into the country long ago, Mine was bought about 25 years ago. The barrel was corroded badly, probably from shooting corrosive ammunition. I cleaned it up as best I could, but it is no shooter. I have seen them for sale for $300.00. Not what I would pay for mine. Far left.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Looks like a Spanish 1916. If the bore is "close to .30", perhaps it's one of the multitudes that were converted from 7mm Mauser to .308 Win back in the day. I am not a fan of that conversion.

 

[Terry G]

Looks like a Spanish 1916. If the bore is "close to .30", perhaps it's one of the multitudes that were converted from 7mm Mauser to .308 Win back in the day. I am not a fan of that conversion.

That's exactly what it is. Mine's not a conversion. I shot several types of 7X57MM out of it, but the bore is too far gone for any accuracy.

 

[Scooter22]

Yup Spanish 1916 short rifle. I have a nice one. They converted many to 7.62/.308. General consensus is the action was never built for .308 pressures and shooting them at that level is a time bomb. Plus the "95" action is only 2 lug and poor gas handling if a case ruptures. But if you reload just use .300 Savage data. That is in the same pressure category the action was made for and the .300 is a great round. I had a 7.62x39 chamber adapter in mine. It worked great. As accurate as reduced .308 loads and once you got the feel it fed from the mag almost everytime. But around 500 or so rounds the bolt started to get hard to turn down. The adapter must have backed out some. I pulled it and it got damaged so I use the .300 load or less with cast boolits. Nice little Mauser. Good luck. But I wish it was still in 7x57 though.

 

[.455_Hunter]

That's exactly what it is. Mine's not a conversion. I shot several types of 7X57MM out of it, but the bore is too far gone for any accuracy.

Mine is a mixmaster, but still in 7x57 with a good bore. I got it as my first elk rifle in 1990 at age 14. It's pretty much retired now, due to excessive headspace from either bolt swap or lug set-back- Factory ammo primers backout a bit when fired.

 

[Catpop]

Thanks for info, I’m updating original thread as I go along so recheck for more info and pics
How did they convert to 308- New barrel or set back and rebore old one?
I’ll try 308 for fit if I can find one
It is two lug bolt, without safety lockup lug behind extractor pic enclosed
Mag opens with FMJ bullet tip
Thanks for info!!!!!! We’ll identify it yet!

Firing pin out: 7mm Mauser chambers almost to point of bolt starting turn down
308 fits mag well, chambers fine and and bullets is snug at muzzle.
So 308 may be it? If so is it safe to shoot with regular Remington hunting ammo? Or does it have to be hand loaded as mentioned above?

Any other possibilities?

 

[MikeInOr]

I would want to take a chamber plug and force a .308 bullet down the bore before shooting it. My guess agrees with Scooter22's guess as a Spanish Mauser rebarreled to .308.

I would want to confirm that the chamber is shaped like a .308 before firing it.

 

[BigBlue 94]

Yeah, i would have the chamber cast and measured before shooting. If you can melt lead and use a set of dial calipers, you can do it at home with a product called Cerro-Safe

 

[caribou]

I had a couple 1916's back in the early 90's in .308.
Reliable, accurate and a handy carbine, I cant remember who I gave/sold them to, but I got rid of them, although not because they were bad in any way.

 

[Scooter22]

Heres some info G&A did on them. I wouldn't use full power 7,62 or .308 in it. There may be some light factory loads available. AFAIC it's a hanload only rifle. JMO. Found this on Calguns.net. It used to be on Samcos web site.

08-17-2013, 10:46 PM

Simply115
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Join Date: Aug 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crunch130
It's very disturbing that they advertise these as being in .308 Win when they clearly are not designed for it. 7.62 NATO, mildly loaded at that, is about good for these things.

Crunch

__________________
California Über Alles

 

[Scooter22]

Heres a excellent post on why I wouldn't just use factory 7,62/.308 ammo in it. Heres a link to full thread.
https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=809608


Crunch130
Senior Member

Join Date: Aug 2010
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Simply115,

Someone asks this question every few months. I'm a mechanical engineer with 27 years of experience. And I grew up in a machine shop. I have spent most of my career in the testing business.

The White Labs tests proved NOTHING. A 1-time test to prove something can handle a nominal load (i.e. your 55,000 psi .308 Win loading) over and over again needs to be proof-loaded at TWICE the load without failure. This is fatigue cycle theory that has been understood for at least 50 years. And the test should be repeated on a statistically significant number of test articles (like at least a dozen of the same model rifle).

There is more than just a one-time ultimate load to failure. Even if not doing damage in the short term, you could be loading the structure up into the "margin of safety" region with full .308 loads. In other words, you might be up in the fatigue cycle zone - a catastrophic failure could happen in a few dozen or few hundred cycles. You just don't know. They didn't even know what fatigue cycle damage was back in the 1890's when this action was designed. Understanding failure theory and modes has come a long way since then.

I realize I'm sounding very academic. I'm trying to help you and other readers understand a bottom-line conclusion - it's probably not a good idea to exceed the pressure a certain rifle action was designed for. General failure theory is that the item should be able to withstand a one-time test load that is 2X the normal loading, which it did not.

So I'm concerned that constant use of full .308 loads could cause bolt lug setback or other "slow" failure modes. This has been documented in Chilean M1895 Mausers converted to 7.62 NATO. Not to mention the gas venting in a small-ring is not nearly as good as a large-ringe if a case ruptures.

Stay on the safe side and reload for those small-ring Mausers to no greater pressure than the original 7X57 ran. 300 Savage load data will get you there. And from a practical point of view, you won't miss the bit of muzzle velocity lost. It's neither a sniper rifle nor an elephant gun.

Safe shooting,
Crunch

 

[wiscoaster]

Another vote for Spanish M1916. Your rear sight is different than mine, but that doesn't mean anything. Mine has a roller-coaster sight. I suspect that means it started life as a long rifle and at some point it was rearsenalled to a short rifle without changing out the sight. Though I haven't done any research into its provenance, yet, other than the maker was Oviedo.

View attachment 1053106

 

[theotherwaldo]

These guns weren't really re-barreled in .308.
Rather, they were chambered in 7.62 CETME, which is a lower-pressure version of 7.62 NATO.
Keep the pressure down on these old guns, folks... .

 

[theotherwaldo]

BTW, these rifles originally had the Royal Spanish coat of arms on the receiver ring, which got scrubbed off under Franco.
Most were left blank.

 

[Gordon]

Where as my 1912 Steyr .308 (7.62 Nato) conversion is a tank being a large ring 98 action and well done .

 

[wiscoaster]

BTW, these rifles originally had the Royal Spanish coat of arms on the receiver ring, which got scrubbed off under Franco.
Most were left blank.

@theotherwaldo - Is this what you're referring to?
View attachment 1053133
It's almost gone on mine, but looks like natural wear.

 

[theotherwaldo]

@theotherwaldo - Is this what you're referring to?

Yep.
Almost all of the captured rifles were scrubbed. The Falangists and some of the other Nationalist groups roll-marked their rifles with their symbols, but most were left blank.
The groups were a rather loose coalition that didn't always play well together... .

Some of the Republican (losing) side escaped to France, Portugal, or back to their home countries and took their rifles with them.
That's where @wiscoaster 's rifle probably came from.

 

[wiscoaster]

Thanks!!

 

[az_imuth]

Here's the crest on the one I got from Sarco. It is marked 7.62 on the left side of receiver. I put a few NATO rounds through it early on without issue, but it has been semi-retired until I start handloading for it.