(MO) Explanation of the Recognition Clause in CCW bill

[Gray Peterson]

This was posted by ccopelan in the Missouri Carry.com forums. I know there's a lot of misinformation going on out there, especially in Missouri. I've been telling people over and over again in this forum that all out of state permits are valid even for Missouri residents, but there's some who continually insist that they heard something different. Perhaps the Missouri DPS will finally clarify it, or the AG Nixon, but here's the best posting I can see that can find to explain the way the letter of the law says:

As always, this is MY OPINION, not a definitive legal examination of the topic. As such, this should NEVER be construed to be advice of any sort, including legal.

Regardless of what sheriffs who are "anti" the new law may say, I think the text is quite clear. It says "4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to section 571.094 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state."

This is a quote from RSMO 571.030, which starts out by saying
"1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:" and then moves on to list 10 items (subdivisions) that are crimes of unlawful use of a weapon. The bill notes that subsections 1, 8, and 10 (of section 1) shall NOT apply to ANY PERSON who has a permit issued by "another state or political subdivision of another state."

For those who may not have read the text of the law yet, I'm including the subsections so you know what exact restrictions that section 4 removes for CCW permit holders. If you know what they are, please skip past them, because I'm a long-winded writer...

[size=-4]Subsection 1 - "(1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or"

Subsection 8 - "(8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof[, or into any public assemblage of persons met for any lawful purpose]; or"

Subsection 10 - " (10) Carries a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any school, onto any school bus, or onto the premises of any function or activity sponsored or sanctioned by school officials or the district school board."[/size]

So, in English, what is says is that you commit a crime if you carry a concealed weapon on or about your person, or carry said weapon into certain locations, such as schools, government building, churches, election locations, etc, BUT (I can't emphasize the "BUT" enough!)
IF YOU HAVE A VALID CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT, ISSUED EITHER IN ACCORDANCE WITH MISSOURI LAW, OR ISSUED BY ANOTHER STATE OR POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF ANOTHER STATE (i.e. COUNTY officials such as Sherriffs), subsections 1, 8, and 10 of section 1 do NOT apply, thereby making it NOT a crime to engage in actions otherwise prohibited by sections 1, 8, and 10.

It does NOT say "if a Missouri resident holds a permit issued in accordance with Missouri laws or if a non-residents holds a permit issued by another state...". It makes absolutely no distinction whatsoever about whether or not a Missouri residents holds a Missouri-issued permit or an out-of-state permit.

The big deal here, really, is not the fact that having a Missouri CCW permit de-criminalizes these subsections, but rather that a later section, section 4, makes it very clear that the decriminalization applies to ANYONE holding a valid CCW permit from Missouri or ANY other state. By using the very inclusive words "all persons" and "any other state" it accomplishes four things:

A) it recognizes ALL out-of-state permits, regardless of the laws of the state issuing the permit (without the need for any complicated reciprocity agreements with other states - which is good for non-residents, but may not benefit Missouri residents traveling to other states) and does not place any separate or different restrictions on them

B) it does not expressly (nor even implicitly) require that a Missouri resident have a Missouri-issued permit in order for section 4 to be applicable.

C) it does not prohibit or limit in any way the right of a Missouri resident to possess a permit issued by another state

D) It does not place any additional restrictions or prohibitions on Missouri residents who hold out-of-state permits.

Because of the broad language in which it is written, section 4 affords a Missouri resident with an out-of-state permit the same decriminalization of subsections 1, 8 & 10 of section 1 that it affords to a Missouri resident that holds a permit issued in Missouri.

In closing, it should be noted that there are no provisions in our new law to allow or require Missouri to issue non-resident permits, which I hope will be addressed and rectified next year. Missouri is losing out on revenue that it could be generating by issuing non-resident permits. Florida has been issuing non-resident permits for several years with no problems whatsoever that I am aware of, and we should be following their lead.

 

[another okie]

I think the folks saying that are saying what they hope or wish the law said, not what it actually says. It may seem illogical to some Missouri opponents of CCW that someone without a Missouri permit can get a Florida permit and carry, but that's what the law says.

 

[CasualShooter]

Missouri State Highway Patrol says "... the bill has no provisions for honoring out of state concealed weapons permits. "

I think it is evident that some in Missouri Law Enforcement did not believe the Missouri General Assembly would override the Governor's Veto of the LTC bill and they have failed to prepare for it even to the extent that many of them do not yet even know what is in the Bill (which has now become law). :banghead:

In response to my Email Inquiry, on September 15, 2003, as to what would be the effective date of the bill, the Missouri State Highway Patrol replied in part via Email on September 16, 2003, "The effective date will be 30 days from last Thursday September 11. However the bill has no provisions for honoring out of state concealed weapons permits."

My return Email response, to MSHP on Septerber 16, 2003, cited the applicable sections of the bill providing for recognition of other states permits and asked for a clarification. I have not yet received a response to my second Email.

First Email to Missouri State Highway Patrol on 9/15/2003 ...
"As you know, the subject bill providing for concealed weapons licenses was vetoed by the Governor on 7/3/03, then overridden by the Missouri House on 9/10/03 and the Missouri Senate on 9/11/03.

Please advise me of the effective date when this bill will become law by return Email. I would like to know when my current permit to carry a concealed weapon, which was issued by another State, Florida, will be honored in Missouri."

Email Reply from Missouri State Highway Patrol on 9/16/2003...
"The effective date will be 30 days from last Thursday September 11.
However the bill has no provisions for honoring out of state concealed
weapons permits.

Summary of the Truly Agreed Version of the Bill
SS HS HCS HB 349, 120, 136 & 328 -- CONCEALED FIREARMS

This bill allows individuals to carry concealed firearms. The
bill establishes a procedure for obtaining an endorsement on a
person's driver's license that entitles the person to carry a
concealed firearm. Sheriffs will issue certificates of
qualification to applicants who meet the requirements for
obtaining the endorsement, which include training in the use of
firearms, a background check, and the payment of a fee. The bill
also creates the county sheriff's revolving fund, in which the
fees for these endorsements will be deposited. Any money in a
county sheriff's revolving fund may be expended at the direction
of the sheriff without prior approval of the governing board of
the county.

The bill sets forth the qualifications necessary to acquire a
certificate of qualification and a procedure by which the
certificate must be granted by county sheriffs to anyone meeting
the qualifications. The Department of Revenue will issue a new
driver's or nondriver's license containing the concealed firearms
endorsement to the applicant. Concealed carry endorsements will
be valid for three years.

QUALIFICATIONS FOR OBTAINING A CONCEALED CARRY ENDORSEMENT

To qualify for the certificate needed to acquire a concealed
carry endorsement, individuals must:

(1) Be at least 23 years of age;

(2) Be a citizen of the United States;

(3) Have resided in Missouri for at least six months or be a
member of the military, or the spouse of a member, stationed in
Missouri;

(4) Not have been found guilty of a felony;

(5) Not have been found guilty, in the five years preceding the
application, of a misdemeanor involving a crime of violence or
two misdemeanors involving either alcohol-related driving
offenses or possession of a controlled substance;

(6) Not be a fugitive from justice;

(7) Not be currently charged with a felony;

(8) Not be dishonorably discharged from the armed forces;

(9) Not have engaged in a pattern of behavior, documented in
public records, that causes the sheriff to have a reasonable
belief that the applicant presents a danger to himself, herself,
or others;

(10) Not have been adjudged mentally incompetent or released
from a mental health facility for five years prior to the
application;

(11) Not be the respondent in a valid full order of protection
currently in effect;

(12) Be fingerprinted;

(13) Clear a criminal background check by the state and the
Federal Bureau of Investigation; and

(14) Comply with training requirements established by the bill.

TRAINING REQUIREMENTS

Applicants for a concealed carry endorsement must complete a
firearms safety course provided by an instructor certified by a
state or federal law enforcement agency or the National Rifle
Association. The bill specifies the required curriculum, which
includes classroom work and live firing exercises. The bill
specifies the training required for the certification of a
firearms safety instructor. Instructors must keep their course
records available for at least four years. Instructors who
provide false information about the performance of an applicant
in the training program are guilty of a class C misdemeanor.

ADMINISTRATIVE PROVISIONS

Sheriffs in first classification counties may authorize police
chiefs in the municipalities within their county to process
applications for certificates of qualification. Sheriffs must
reimburse the municipalities for the reasonable expenses incurred
as a result.

Sheriffs must request the criminal background check within three
working days of the submission of the completed application and
must issue a certificate of qualification to the applicant within
three days of the receipt of the completed background check.
Sheriffs must issue a certificate without a federal criminal
background check if the background check has not been received
within 45 days. Sheriffs may deny an application if there is
reason to believe an applicant lied on the application. Denials
must be communicated in writing, state the grounds for denial,
and inform the applicant of the right to amend and resubmit the
application for a 30-day period. The bill specifies an appeal
form and a process by which the sheriff will re-examine an
amended application and, if still not approved, the applicant may
appeal through the small claims court. Sheriffs must keep
records of all applications and report the issuance of all
certificates of qualification to the Missouri Uniform Law
Enforcement System (MULES). Application fees may not exceed
$100, and renewal fees may not exceed $50.

The application must contain a conspicuous warning that false
statements will constitute perjury, a class D felony.
Endorsements issued to anyone who later fails to meet any of the
requirements will be suspended or revoked. An endorsement holder
must notify the Department of Revenue within 30 days of changing
his or her name or address. Endorsement holders who have their
endorsement revoked may petition the small claims court for
reinstatement. Any person aggrieved by a final decision in small
claims court may petition the associate circuit court for a trial
de novo. The court, upon a finding that a plaintiff brought an
action against an endorsement holder without a reasonable basis
and with an intent to harass the endorsement holder, may assess
all costs and fees to the plaintiff, including attorney fees,
which are presumed to be $150 per hour.

LIMITATIONS ON WHERE CONCEALED FIREARMS MAY BE CARRIED

Endorsements to carry a concealed firearm are not valid in many
places, including: police stations (without the consent of the
chief law enforcement officer); polling places on election day;
correctional facilities; courthouses; airports; bars; schools
(without the consent of school officials); child care facilities
(without the consent of the facility manager); hospitals;
stadiums; amusement parks; gambling facilities (without the
consent of the manager); churches (without the consent of the
minister); any place where the carrying of a firearm is
prohibited by federal law; the meeting place of any elected
officials (except for the elected officials themselves who have
endorsements); or any privately owned property where the owner
has posted that the premises are off-limits to concealed
firearms. The bill also allows governmental units to limit
concealed firearms in their public buildings. Violating
prohibitions on carrying concealed firearms in certain locations
is grounds for being denied access to or being removed from the
premises. Frequent violators are subject to monetary penalties
and endorsement suspensions.

UNLAWFUL USE OF A WEAPON

The bill also changes the crime of unlawful use of a weapon. The
bill:

(1) Removes the prohibition on the carrying of a firearm or
other weapon capable of lethal use into any public gathering;

(2) Adds coroners and medical examiners to the list of officials
who are exempt from certain parts of the crime;

(3) Exempts persons with a valid concealed firearm permit from
Missouri or another state from certain acts that constitute the
crime;

(4) Clarifies that peace officers are exempt from certain acts
that constitute the crime when off duty or outside of their
jurisdiction;

(5) Allows a person who is at least 21 years of age and who
lawfully possesses a concealable firearm to transport the firearm
in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle;

(6) Increases the penalty for possessing a firearm while
intoxicated. Under current law, it is class B misdemeanor. The
bill makes it a class A misdemeanor if the gun is not loaded and
a class D felony if it is loaded; and

(7) Allows certain acts that would constitute the crime if those
acts are a lawful act of defense.



Public Information and Education Division
Missouri State Highway Patrol

Reply To: [email protected] "

My second Email to MSHP on 9/16/2003, in response to their above reply ...
"Thank you for your timely reply to my previous Email, of 9/15/2003, concerning the above; however, I am confused by part of your response.

Your response stated in part "The effective date will be 30 days from last Thursday September 11. However the bill has no provisions for honoring out of state concealed weapons permits.", emphasis added.

To the contrary, however, the "Summary of the Truly Agreed Version of the Bill SS HS HCS HB 349, 120, 136 & 328 -- CONCEALED FIREARMS", which you included in your response, stated in part, "UNLAWFUL USE OF A WEAPON ... The bill also changes the crime of unlawful use of a weapon. The bill:....(3) Exempts persons with a valid concealed firearm permit fromMissouri or another state from certain acts that constitute the crime...", emphasis added.

Further, a reading of the complete Bill [Truly Agreed and Finally Passed version] posted on the web site of the Missouri House at the following link: <http://www.house.state.mo.us/bills03/biltxt/truly/HB0349T.HTM> revealed the following provisions, in part, the sections indicated:

Sec. 571.030.4. "Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to section 571.094 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state...." emphasis added.

Sec. 571.094.20. "A concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to this section or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state...." emphasis added.

In light of the above, I am confused at your statement, "However the bill has no provisions for honoring out of state concealed weapons permits."

Please enlighten me by return Email. I would appreaciate it.

Thanks "

As of today (4 days later) I have NOT received a response to my second Email.

 

[John Ross]

Folks, SOME sheriffs and Highway Patrol are reporting what they WISH the law said. At a MO Sheriff's ???'n meeting Friday, some sheriffs were stating they were going to make their own policies about issuance, and the Sheriff's ???'n house lawyer said "No, you can't do that. You must comply with the law as written."

We need to be extra-polite and careful during the initial six months or so. If you have an out-of-state permit, carry a photocopy of the Missouri law. If a cop wants to arrest you, LET HIM. NEVER get angry, argumentative, or upset. It will get sorted out.

Most old-time cops and sheriffs know the score but the kids just out of the academy aren't the same.

The sheriffs as a whole are determined to be ready to start processing applications Tuesday, Oct. 14. (Monday is a holiday.) They should have forms finalized in about a week.

Some of them are upset but a few are bright enough to have figured out we have just given them a license to print hundred-dollar bills.

FBI has 48-hour turnaround guaranteed on FP checks. The choke point is the Highway patrol background check, which takes a lot longer. Go to

www.john-ross.net for more info on classes etc.

JR

 

[El Tejon]

John, law enforcement issuing precatory "legal advice" is quite common. Even here where our LTC has been in effect for decades there is one Sheriff near me who advises that the pistol(s) must be concealed.

At a political function I talked to the County Attorney (the attorney for an Indiana county that handles the civil and administrative issues) of that county about this advisement. He replied that it was he that had told the Sheriff to say this.

I was taken aback. Surely you know the statute here says "carry", nothing about open or concealed--in a GSC rig or under you hat it's cool here. He replied that he did not want people carrying openly as it could lead to an incident with his Sheriff's Department.

Excellent advice about carrying a copy of the statute in your wallet. Just make sure the copper knows that's what you are going for!

 

[bogie]

Was chatting with a Chesterfield cop yesterday, and he informed me that car carry in other than an unloaded/locked container mode was illegal unless accompanied by a permit.

These folks haven't read the stuff.

 

[CasualShooter]

It would be a good idea, if you're from Missouri, to have a copy of your Missouri Permit to Purchase with the handgun. Some leos may otherwise assume your handgun not legally acquired and you could find yourself detained for investigation until it's sorted out.

 

[F4GIB]

It is now over 90 days,

CasualShooter posted

My second Email to MSHP on 9/16/2003, in response to their above reply ...

"Thank you for your timely reply to my previous Email, of 9/15/2003, concerning the above; however, I am confused by part of your response.

Your response stated in part "The effective date will be 30 days from last Thursday September 11. However the bill has no provisions for honoring out of state concealed weapons permits.", emphasis added.

To the contrary, however, the "Summary of the Truly Agreed Version of the Bill SS HS HCS HB 349, 120, 136 & 328 -- CONCEALED FIREARMS", which you included in your response, stated in part, "UNLAWFUL USE OF A WEAPON ... The bill also changes the crime of unlawful use of a weapon. The bill:....(3) Exempts persons with a valid concealed firearm permit fromMissouri or another state from certain acts that constitute the crime...", emphasis added.

Further, a reading of the complete Bill [Truly Agreed and Finally Passed version] posted on the web site of the Missouri House at the following link: <http://www.house.state.mo.us/bills0...uly/HB0349T.HTM> revealed the following provisions, in part, the sections indicated:

Sec. 571.030.4. "Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to section 571.094 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state...." emphasis added.

Sec. 571.094.20. "A concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to this section or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state...." emphasis added.

In light of the above, I am confused at your statement, "However the bill has no provisions for honoring out of state concealed weapons permits."

Please enlighten me by return Email. I would appreaciate it.

Thanks "

As of today (4 days later) I have NOT received a response to my second Email.

Did the MoHP ever reply?

If not, how about asking a pro-gun legislator to ask them (1) for a reply now and (2) for an explanation of why they didn't reply to your second request?