Modern Data on stopping power

[tackleberry45]

I do not want to start the caliber controversy here but it seems most of what I see as far the infamous stopping power charts still rate the .357 mag and .45 at the top. Does anyone know of recent modern information in this great deabte? I still am a 9mm guy and I use the 124 and 127 loads.

 

[American_Pit_Bull]

I do not think that anyone has wasted their time on compiling data on the mythical topic of "stopping power" since the introduction of high quality bonded ammo and other improvements.

It's all about shot placement, now-a-days.

 

[wes]

Even at gunpoint, I don't know which caliber I'd choose to be shot with....
accuracy aside I would choose a bb I guess

 

[tostada]

People still rate the .357 Mag very highly, but I honestly haven't seen any info or testing on modern .357 loads, and I can only assume that they (like the 357 SIG) just aren't the tweaked-out performers like a lot of JHP in 9mm / .40 / .45.

I mean, nobody claims the .357 Mag isn't great, and the 357 SIG is close, but at that velocity they tend to either expand very little or fragment.

Anyway, the truth is out there, and has been for some time. The problem is, the people who understand the truth don't waste all that much time debating calibers or "stopping power." The people who do talk about it are generally the clueless ones living in an alternate reality where "overpenetration" is actually a bad thing.

 

[obxned]

There are a ton of tests, statistics derived from actual shootings, scientific data, and opinions on 'stopping power'. It is a very interesting subject, which each of us should study. Pick any load, and you can find experts to declare it the best and others who assure you it would not drop a mouse.

However, some absolute truths can be gleaned from all this: that there is no magic bullet, that there is no magic caliber, that individuals react differently to being shot, and the only sure 1-shot stop is a COM hit with a 16" naval gun.

 

[Bill_G]

Quote
However, some absolute truths can be gleaned from all this: that there is no magic bullet, that there is no magic caliber, that individuals react differently to being shot, and the only sure 1-shot stop is a COM hit with a 16" naval gun.



+1 on that. wambaugh's book Lines and Shadows tells a true story of some undercover CA policeman who hit a criminal with 12 ga buckshot in the chest at about 10 ft. the BG ran away about 100yds before he fell down dead.

 

[MikePGS]

Heres a website that has information on one shot stops from various calibers (though of course this is a pretty vague term). http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=0

 

[mavracer]

ok heres the deal you have gotten yourself into the situation where you need your gun.95% of the time all you'll need is to present your gun.out of that 5% of the time 90% of the time COM hit will work (BG will understand it hurts and you will shoot). that last 10% where you have a determaned BG and need to stop him statistics show 60 % one shot stops with the mice 32 and 380 to 90% with the BIGGUNS (38+p,9MM+P.357,40,45 whatever) statisticly speaking your draw is 100 times more important than what gun and your ability to put 1 COM is 50 times more important.
ITS THE SOFTWARE NOT THE HARDWARE.PRACTICE YOUR DRAW.PRACTICE SHOOTING.

 

[thewriter]

+1 on that. wambaugh's book Lines and Shadows tells a true story of some undercover CA policeman who hit a criminal with 12 ga buckshot in the chest at about 10 ft. the BG ran away about 100yds before he fell down dead.

I read about a similar thing in a nonfiction book about police where an officer had put 2 rounds of 00 Buck into a guy's heart, but he made it to the end of the block.

 

[Rob96]

With todays advances in bullet technology, it is almost impossible to find a good round for calibers 9mm through 45acp.

 

[Patton21]

"With todays advances in bullet technology, it is almost impossible to find a good round for calibers 9mm through 45acp."

I think he meant it is almost impossible to find a NOT good round for calibers 9mm through 45acp. I would also agree with this. When I got into this debate several years ago I realized that for handguns there is not data that will help this debate. And anyone who tells you they know the answer is lying or too dumb to know they are wrong.
The caliber is not that important, the physiology of the bad guy and shot placement is really all that can be said about stopping power. But I may fall into the too dumb to know they are wrong category.

 

[Rob96]

Patton thank you for clearing up my muddy thought interpretation.

 

[glassman]

Not A Bad Choice After All

Thanks Mike for the chart! I have taken an extreme amount of heat for opting to carry my Beretta Tomcat. 'not enough'..'better hit me in the eye'..'that's cute but useless'. You see where I'm going with this. According to the chart, my tomcat, using silver tips, has more stopping power than a
.38, so maybe my choice isn't such a bad one at that. No matter what you use, it's still all about shot placement.

 

[Soybomb]

Read this http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

 

[bestseller92]

Check out Evan Marshall's site.

 

[LightningJoe]

My view: Handgun calibers don't produce incapacitating injuries without rare shot placement. But handguns are effective at stopping fights the great majority of the time. This means handguns are effective mainly for psychological reasons, not physical ones. I'd say the two important mechanisms are fear and demoralization. People fear handguns and are demoralized by injuries inflicted by them. If those mechanisms aren't effective, the handgun won't stop the fight without very lucky shot placement. Caliber might matter a little bit, but it doesn't make the top five.

 

[Michael Courtney]

Read this http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness is outdated and flawed in many ways.

First of all, it is based on the unproven presupposition that easily detectable wounding is necessary to contribute to rapid incapacitation. More recent pressure wave research has shown that a ballistic pressure wave contributes to incapacitation while producing wounding that requires sensitive microscopic or biochemical techniques to detect. See our papers below, and the references therein (especially the Suneson and Wang papers):

Review of criticisms of ballistic pressure wave experiments, the Strasbourg goat tests, and the Marshall and Sanow data
Authors: Michael Courtney, Amy Courtney

link: http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0701268

Ballistic pressure wave contributions to rapid incapacitation in the Strasbourg goat tests
Authors: Michael Courtney, Amy Courtney
link: http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0701267

Relative incapacitation contributions of pressure wave and wound channel in the Marshall and Sanow data set
Authors: Michael Courtney, Amy Courtney

link: http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0701266

A method for testing handgun bullets in deer
link: http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0702107


There are a number of other flaws in HWFE as well. For example, the flawed notion that you need 2000 FPS to both fragment reliably and penetrate to 12". Another flaw is the assertion that the direct crush mechanism is the only handgun wounding mechanism which damages tissue. This ignores temporary cavitation, which can damage liver, spleen, kidneys, and neural tissue. It also ignores fragmentation which can contribute to wounding at velocities in the handgun range for faster loads. This assertion also ignores the prompt damage mechanism where the stress field can damage tissue tissue not directly impacted by the bullet.

Michael Courtney

 

[Brasso]

I'm somewhat suspect of any critical review of an imaginary data set. i.e. the infamous "Strasbourg Goat Tests", as well as the equally unscientific Marshall and Sanow data. How can you criticize something that doesn't exist and is so flawed as to be meaningless?

 

[CWL]

There are no true/accurate/correct "Stopping Power" charts. It doesn't exist.

Too many variables between bullets, cartridge load, how many bullets hit, length of barrel, distance to target, bullet placement, penetration, type of body, muscle/fat mass, clothing, mental state of target, chemicals present in body,etc. and etc.

Stopping Power means for crap as a means of determining handgun/cartridge selection, it is a non-scientific term invented by 2 people who want to sell you their books.

 

[Michael Courtney]

If the Strasbourg and M&S data sets are "imaginary" then why do the pressure wave effects manifest in these data sets agree so well with a number of other experiments?

How can one be so glib as to criticize work without even reading it?

The criticisms of M&S and Strasbourg contain many, many logical flaws and fallacies, as pointed out in the above referenced papers.

Michael Courtney

 

[mavracer]

How can one be so glib as to criticize work without even reading it?

I also don't understand why any one would criticize any of strasbourg,M&S or HWFE when they all agree the bullet that makes the biggest hole tends to work better given suffesent penatration.the strassbourg tests only flaw is they didn't put goats in a coat and shoot through glass at a bad angle,thus the ideal world for glaser and mag safe. But I don't live in a ideal world.M&S are too real world to repete in a lab so they give a good guideline for what "might" work and HWFE does not say that temp. cavaty and frag don't exist just "not reliable" if you read the conclusion in HWFE it is spot on.THE ROUNDS THAT MAKE THE BIGGEST HOLES THROUGH VITALS "TEND" TO WORK BETTER .and strassberg and M&S "TEND" to agree.
Bottom line it's the software not the hardware.if you can put 9MM fmj COM 100% its better than 16" navel gun hitting 5% of the time and I havent found a holster for battelship yet.LOL

 

[rick newland]

As pistol caliber stopping power goes, I don't believe in it. I believe in the keep shooting them till they go down theory.

 

[Soybomb]

Mr. Courtney I'm well aware of your work, I came across that set of papers in early April and have them printed but haven't had time to pour over them yet, nor I have seen any real commentary on them by people who are generally deemed the experts in the field. I do look forward to reading more about your research but at this time I wouldn't be comfortable saying it carries the same recommendations as the general theories in HWFE.

Another flaw is the assertion that the direct crush mechanism is the only handgun wounding mechanism which damages tissue. This ignores temporary cavitation, which can damage liver, spleen, kidneys, and neural tissue. It also ignores fragmentation which can contribute to wounding at velocities in the handgun range for faster loads.

I'm certainly am amateur in this area, but doesn't fragmentation contribute to permanent cavity creation? Regarding temporary cavitation damages, this things are certainly mentioned in HWFE. See page 7, "Only inelastic tissue like the liver, or extremely fagile tissues of the brain, would show significant damage due to temporary cavitation." Along the amateur questions, how rapidly is a spleen damaged by temporary cavitation going to disable an attacker?

 

[innerpiece]

its easy to debate theory....

folks who have been killed by handgun loads tho, I dont think would have much to say...... eh?!

If yer not confident in it.. dont carry it..

Im comfy down to a 9mm..


ip.

 

[glockarmourer40517]

most of you on this post are DEAD WRONG. sorry

most of “gun-people” confuse "stopping power" with AIT (average incapacitation time).

One can kill another with a properly placed BB, also and including giving enough time for bleed-out AND/OR shock to take place.


Ignorantly.....(very very very very Ignorantly)..most "armchair gun-gurus" think:

A: 'stopping power is a mythos"

B: Exotic modern ammo negates caliber size/velocity/mass (which is an utter lie)

C: "many so-called tests like the goat-shoots prove nothing since this isn’t ABSOLUTELY scientific".........absolute rubbish.

Countless police forces have ditched their 9mm glocks/ S&W/ Sigs in exchange for mostly .40SW and a few for 45ACP

The rule of conceal carry is : “ALWAYS CARRY AS MUCH (GUN) AS YOU CAN HANDLE”……if you can carry any form of .45, then you shouldn’t be carrying a 9mm, regardless of the nature of the ammunition.

the reasoning behind same is due to countless shoot-outs with drugged up, drunken & stoned / lunatic criminals who fail to become "immediately incapacitated" with 9mm shots......not only this, but MULTIPLE 9mm shots.

Ignorantly most "gun-gurus" think that killing their opponent/attacker is the point, when of course it is not.

Immediate incapacitation is the goal.

Any opponent/attacker who is wounded with, say a 9mm HP, is provided with enough time before shock/incapacitation/bleed-out occurs, is going to A: shoot you back…..B. Knife you. C kill you in another way….in which case you have achieved nothing….Yes your opponent/attacker will DIE, but alas he has killed you in the interim between his being shot multiple times, and his incapacitation.