moral question

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jim in Anchorage

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If someone owned you money $300-$ 400 what ever and said "look I don't have cash but will you take this old rifle as payment" upon looking at said rifle you realize it is something you wanted your whole life but knew you could never afford[in my case a John Ulrich factory engraved Winchester model 1886,in 50-110]-would you:A Explain to them the gun is worth far more then what they owe,and advise them on how to get the best price:B Take the gun saying "OK but you realize I am giving you a break" and burn rubber geting it home?
 
I think it depends on your relationship with said person. If he's a friend, explain to them that the rifle is worth more than they owe you, and offer to give him extra money in exchange (if you can afford it). I wouldn't feel right knowing I took an expensive rifle off a friend for far less than it's worth, unless they knew exactly what they were doing.
 
I tried explaining this on another thread that didn't seem to go so well, but I'll make the same point.

Morality/ethics is a very black and white issue. Circumstances, usually personal, will cause people to introduce grey areas.

I can honestly say that I do not do the right thing all the time, but I do usually know what the right thing is...I'm human and a sinner, sooo....

The moral thing, I think, would be to let the guy know that he could sell that firearm to pay you and have a few bucks left over in his pocket. Chances are that he may know this and may feel better about letting you have it since you bothered to be honest with him. He may know about the value and doesn't have the time or know-how to sell it. Either way, you will still get what he owes you, and in the end that is what really matters.
 
My answer (and I have faced something very similar though without the lifelong desire aspect) was to:

1) Tell the person "I'M INTERESTED!" -- don't want it slipping away.

2) Research the fair price (trying to be scrupulously accurate in my evaluations) and tell the person what I found. I gave them the information (printed out a similar item being sold online by a dealer and wrote down the blue book value for them) so they could research it themselves if they wanted. I told them everything I found and encouraged them to research it too.

3) I offered what I was willing to pay. In my case that didn't match what they could have gotten from a reasonable sale (even counting loaned money or the like), and I told them that. I just said, "I really want to buy from you but this is what I can afford right now." I also told them they could sell it online, that dealerships would buy it but not to accept a low offer, etc. What I didn't do was offer to help them sell.

No regrets. I will say that in my case it worked out in my favor -- I think the guy who had the gun was happy and I know I am -- but I won't promise it would in yours. The risk, of course, is that they'll sell it to someone else for less than it was really worth to you. That's where being honest pays off. The reward? I have something I really like, he feels he not only repaid the $$$ but the spirit of the loan (bringing everything into balance) and we're both happy and able to look each other in the eye with a smile.

Just a perspective.
 
It may break your heart, but you could tell him that you will hold the rifle until he pays you the cash. At least you'll be holding the collateral. You can even set a time frame for payment.
I think you have an idea of the value of that firearm.

NCsmitty
 
I also agree with TRGRHPY (especially if it is indeed a friend). You'll sleep better at night. However, if it turns out that the other party would like to sell it for top dollar and/or you don't have enough to sweeten the deal...he/she should at least let you take it to the range once.
 
Tell him you are interested and offer him a fair amount to make up the rest of the price he would receive if he went to sell it at a pawn or gun shop. Or you can hold the rifle as collateral.
 
Naah.... As Martin Luther's Small Cathecism states:


Thou shalt not steal.

What does this mean?--Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not take our neighbor's money or property, nor get them by false ware or dealing, but help him to improve and protect his property and business [that his means are preserved and his condition is improved].
 
Easy answer. Tell him approximately what you think it's actual value is and that you will accept it as payment in full only with his full knowledge of everything up front. If he still wants to proceed, you can sleep soundly without your conscience bothering you.
 
relationships with people are always more important than relationship with things
 
I had a very similar experience not long ago....

My father offered me a bunch of old guns from his locker. He told me they were "about worthless" and that I could do what I want with them.... with the exception of two guns which were handed down from my grandmother and grandfather respectively, which I was not to sell (no problem)....

Well, I get the guns home and go to check on the value of these "about worthless guns".... first grandmas- one of the most produced single shot .22's in the world... about $100 (yup, he's right).... next grandpas- it would seem this gun is second only to grandmas .22... again, about $100.... next gun, a nice .308 that had sentimental value to me... about $250... the next gun which had no family value aside from someone left it at my grandpas house many many many years ago, on checking and rechecking values everywhere I can, is a clapped out old WRF 22 (caliber is out of production for a long time)... kind of rusty and scared.... and is worth more than any other gun in my collection.... and more than most of them combined!!

I had to give that some hard thought, but then I called my dad and told him what I had found out.... he said "thats fine, do whatever you want with it".... he being my dad I told him I didn't feel right about selling it from under him, if thats what I decided to do with it... he said "fine, I tell you what, you keep it, and if you ever sell it, give me half".... sounded like a good deal to everyone....

I feel good, I have this true collectors firearm in my collection, and I know I can do whatever I want with it without any guilt....

I'm not a big sucker for sentiment, so it might go someday. I would never put a painting this valuable on my wall, and it's useless to shoot (if I could find ammo). It's not all that good looking aside from being obviously old and rustic. And I wouldn't trust that it wouldn't get stolen if on display in my neighborhood.... we'll see...

The moral is.... tell him what you really know, including that you really want this gun and that this would be an overpayment that you can (or cannot) pay back.... tell him you want him to know that, if he were to go through all the trouble, he could likely sell it for more.... odds are he will tell you to take it as opposed to deal with the issues, and knowing it is something you really wanted.... perceived fate is hard to argue with....
 
The correct answer is beyond easy------what would you want him to do if the situation were reversed? Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking! Are you a man of integrity and character-----or not----you decide.;)
 
Do the right thing, tell him how much it is likely worth and let him decide what he wants to do at that point. You could hold it as collateral if he is willing until he comes up with the cash you are owed. You could also agree on a price to pay him for the rifle minus the owed debt. You could tell him how to sell it for a fair price, and then take the money you are owed.

If it was a friend that is how I would handle it. Now if the guy is a pain in the ass and you don't like him..... you should still do the right thing.
 
I would explain what it was probably worth and give him the option. And if it is worth considerably more than he owed me, and if I could afford it, I would offer to pay him the difference for it, of low book value of course.

I say that because the man may be in need of the extra cash and might jump at the chance. At the same time I pay a little less than its street value.
 
I had a guy do exactly the same thing to me but he owed me $700.00 and he wanted to give me a .376 Styer scout for the debt.

I explained to him that if he was to give me that rifle that I would turn right around and sell it for over twice what he owed me. I figured that he would wise up and sell it himself. But he insisted several times that he was OK with that situation and wanted to give me the gun instead of cash. I did the deal I turned right around and sold that Scout rifle for $1700.oo. He went away happy I went away happy but. Was that ethical? I think it was given the fact that I didn't lie or omit my intentions. He simply didn't want the trouble of selling the rifle. Whatever!!
 
It would be best not to hold someone in debt to you or be in debt to someone else. This way you are free to do His Work.
 
Great answers guys, and thanks for the input.Hungry Seagull-I assume you have never been a landlord with a renter 4 months behind. The birds of the sky may not have to sow or reap,but I do.
 
Well if he's a tenant of yours and he is behind, and you want that rifle.... I'll bet you could work out a deal to get the rifle and get him a couple months worth of rent. Might be a win win for both of you. You get a rifle you always wanted, he get's a chance to get back on his feet and hopefully save some money in the process.
 
I don't know if I missed an explination in one of the posts but if someone owes me 500 and offers me a gun worth a lot more I have to ask myself
1. If that person knows how much it is worth?
2. If he does is it possible it was not obtained through legal means?

I've got myself into this position before and ended up with a knock on the door from my local law inforcement. They may not charge you with anything , like they did me , but now your out money and your gun you were so proud of
 
Do the right thing and tell the guy how much it's worth and give him a chance to pay you back and make little for himself. Otherwise if he has the info and makes an informed choice...well that is what it is...his choice.
 
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