More on the KT Ordinance raid

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

So, umm... Have we learned anything new about the raid on KT Ord?

 

[mp510]

Remember, right now the ATFE is only investegating. This guy has not (to my knowledge) yet been charged with anything much less convicted. The evidence that was taken can as much exhonerate him as it can fry him, depending on what it tells.

 

[Quaamik]

L. Neil Smith put this one in perspective many years ago with this comment:

"You may never convince the other guy, but it's often worthwhile to keep arguing for the effect it has on bystanders, especially his allies."

To put a more understandable spin on it, think about WACO and Ruby Ridge. Now seriously think about how most of the country, h&%$ ... the entire county outside the RKBA moveemnt, views these two incidents. If necessary, stike up a conversation with someone outside of the RKBA about either one.

Bring up Ruby Ridge, and most people will stare at you blankly. Ditto the name Randy Weaver. Explain it to them and they will immediatle belive that he must have done *something* wrong.

Bring up WACO, and you are likely to be told how Koresh was molesting the children on the compound and that it's thie childrens parents fault they died because after all they could have just given up.

All the ranting in the world will not get the press to print anything that paints him as less than satan incarnate. Reasoned, well though and well worded press releases stand at least a small chance of being published. If only one in 100 (non RKBA insiders) read such a press release about his issue, and only 1 in 10 believe it and take the opinion that he may be being wrongfully prosecuted, that could mean some 200,000 supporters. That kind of support is worth trying to cultivate.

 

[GigaBuist]

It would have probably been a good idea to skip 90% of the Braveheart stuff. The "tell them America's sons and daughterrs are theirs no more" was plenty and he should have ended it there.

Maybe we need some kind of freebie PR firm like thing that's made up of folks with a more level head and some really good writing abilities. Nothing against Richard, but given that he's so close to the situation he's likely to be angrier than anybody else out there.

I like Vex's version much better. Vex, maybe you could try contacting him and asking him to put out a milder version with his endorsement? Just a thought.

 

[Psssniper]

This thread again shows why gunowners will eventually lose the fight...

exactly what I was thinking, united we stand divided we fall

 

[carpettbaggerr]

Think about how much this letter could be used by the antis to prove all gun owners are eextemist anarchists. It should worry you.........
In the original, there's too much talk about death, dying, killing, etc...

Yeah. Wouldn't want the anti's to find any extremist quotes, especially about death and dying, and being ready to use force if absolutely necessary

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”

“"The liberties of our country, the freedoms of our civil Constitution are worth defending at all hazards; it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have received them as a fair inheritance from our worthy ancestors. They purchased them for us with toil and danger and expense of treasure and blood. It will bring a mark of everlasting infamy on the present generation – enlightened as it is – if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or to be cheated out of them by the artifices of designing men."

“Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains or slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take but as for me; give me liberty or give me death!”

“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.”

Celata's prose isn't quite up to snuff, but you get the idea, don't you?

 

[Jim March]

This is how the BATFE plans to set precident.

Attack somebody who is enough out of the mainstream that they won't attract defenders. Pick them off. And then use that successful bust to go after others of a similar type but more mainstream attitudes and with more friends.

Folks, we will *always* have people who are either less articulate or more radical than most. Everything is a bell curve. It doesn't matter. Harping on what the guy coulda/woulda/shoulda done is...well, disgusting under the circumstances.

 

[only1asterisk]

That is exactly the plan, Jim.

David

 

['Card]

*snork*

Call it 'disgusting' all you want, but it doesn't change the facts, and I'm with Vex on this one. I'm as pro-RKBA as any of you, but I read that statement and my gut reaction said "tinfoil-hat wearing whackjob."

Our opponents keep winning the PR fight because we keep playing right into their hands, when our most visible proponents end up sounding and acting exactly the way they want to stereotype all of us.

We won't win this fight by screaming the loudest and the longest. We won't win it in a noble last stand of blood and gunfire. This is a democratic republic. We'll win it by converting the reasonable center to our side, and we'll lose it by alienating them.

 

[Vex]

Celata's prose isn't quite up to snuff, but you get the idea, don't you?

No, I see a major difference. The people who stated those quotes had no other option. As Americans, we have plenty of options.

Look, the people who fought the revolutionary war had no other choice. They were being unfairly taxed without representation. The British moved armies into the cities to make sure the colonists paid their taxes because they were greedy, money hungry, fat pigs who were in too much debt from previous wars.

We're not in this situation. The ATF raiding some guy for whatever reason, justified or not, is not the beginning of the call to arms for the revolution of 2006. It's utter BS.

The difference is the bolded part above. As Americans, we are represented in the government. We have too many options available to us.

I hate to break it to ya, but it's not time to start a new revolution against the "jack booted thugs" of the ATF. Sorry to ruin your day.

Now since you're so obsessed with quotes that involve death, try this one: Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'. Hoping for a civil war is no life. Working to change the law through legislation and techniques that don't involve bloodshed is hard work, and we need all the people we can muster. A civil war is premature.

Hear this: When/If the time comes for a revolution, I'll speak my peace with society and join the ranks of whichever side I belong on. Until then, we owe it to our forefathers and our children to be decent.

 

[mkh100]

Card said this "This is a democratic republic. We'll win it by converting the reasonable center to our side, and we'll lose it by alienating them."

smartest thing I have heard since/about the KT raid.......card you nailed it, and we as gun owners have work to do !

Mike

 

[Third_Rail]

[QUOTE='Card]I'm as pro-RKBA as any of you, but...[/QUOTE]

Sounds a lot like "I'm a gun owner, but..." that the antis say, yes?


United we stand, divided we will be defeated. These are all minor nitpicks, really, compared to how important this struggle is. It takes a braver man to vocalize what he believes in than to shoot those that disagree, yes? I believe Celata, so far, has chosen the correct path of resistance. He may not be articulating what he believes perfectly, but his words still ring true.


Let me now state that I do agree that a non-violent option, no, many non-violent options are still open to us which we should try. I agree that any and all non-violent options should be tried, many times over. We still are able to work within the system, as slow and difficult as it may be.

 

[only1asterisk]

Not democratic republic, federal republic.

David

 

[Vex]

Sounds a lot like "I'm a gun owner, but..." that the antis say, yes?

You didn't even finish the guy's quote. That looks like the "selective reading and editing" that the antis do, yes?

I'm as pro-RKBA as any of you, but I read that statement and my gut reaction said "tinfoil-hat wearing whackjob."

Exactly.

United we stand, divided we will be defeated. These are all minor nitpicks, really, compared to how important this struggle is.

So let me ask you this... who's the dividing party? If we're divided, then tell me which part of the RKBA isn't being a team player.

 

[neoncowboy]

The difference is the bolded part above. As Americans, we are represented in the government. We have too many options available to us.

As I read this, I recalled the letter I wrote to my senators and congressman yesterday. It drew their attention to this case, to the recent ATF hearings and requested politely that they please renew efforts to reign in this rogue agency of federal police.

I am afraid to mail it. I'm afraid of what list my name will be on if I send that letter in. I'm afraid of becoming a target of 'federal gun law investigations' myself...and no, I haven't broken any gun laws. I'm afraid of what might happen to me in teh future if I wind up on their list of "tinfoil-hat wearing whackjob."

After all, it's only the anti-government extremist, white supremacist racist, militia, domestic terrorist nutjobs who send in letters to their representatives requesting accountability from the federal gun police, isn't it?

Is that what you mean by being represented by the government?

Do you see that it's the actions of the ATF that have caused me to be afraid and do you think you can concede that it's a reseonable fear?

 

[The Drew]

I'm as pro-RKBA as any of you, but

That is exactly my point, too many "but"s Like I support concealed carry, but
nobody is responsible enough to carry in bars.

Since I'm a hunter, I see no need for anyone to have an assault weapon.

Or, I support the right for everyone to have any semiautomatic weapons they want, but machine guns are evil...

I support the 2nd amendment, but only when it comes to my hunting rifle/shotgun...

 

[gezzer]

They were being unfairly taxed without representation

Being taxed with representation has proven to be about the same or worse.

 

[saltydog]

Not democratic republic, federal republic.

You hit the nail right on the head. This is one of the best kept secrets in this country. Hell most people who run this forum probably didn't get this one.

 

[Mongo the Mutterer]

Look, the people who fought the revolutionary war had no other choice. They were being unfairly taxed without representation. The British moved armies into the cities to make sure the colonists paid their taxes because they were greedy, money hungry, fat pigs who were in too much debt from previous wars.

Vex, I agree with your post, except for the part highlighted. The people who fought thought they had no choice, but they were far from the majority of the population of the Colonies.

About 1/3 were what we consider today "Patriots", 1/3 were Tories, loyal to the Crown, and the final 1/3 didn't care one way or the other.

They did have a choice back then. We have a choice today, but I prefer to use the current representative government to effect or deflect change. You seem to feel the same.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

If he was doing a BraveHeart, he would be bending over and blowing fireballs out of his arse.

This is a hoot. Everybody here except for the apologists and infiltrators agree that the atf is outa line and needs to be shut down.

Outa line and needs to be shut down and never mentioned again.

Alcohol got made legal. Does ATF chase underage drinkers? No glory.

Tobacco is not only legal but fast falling into disuse. Does ATF chase underage smokers? Dull.

Firearms are constitutionally protected. The worst outrage and these clowns revel in stomping our God given and [sarcastic] constitutionally protected [/sarcastic] rights.

It's not like he is lining up a rebellion or anything. He is just vigorously and with spirited dialog trying to spit in their eye and tell them that he is still going to have his shoot.

You think it's fiery rhetoric? Go listen to a WWF commercial.

Sheesh!

ATF needs to be put out of it's misery, buried and never mentioned again.

 

[YellowLab]

'taxation without representation'.... OK, how many idiots in Congress are REPRESENTING YOUR INTERESTS? Your VALUES? Your MORALS?

Have the boarders been secured?

Have criminals been routed from your community?

Why are politicians in the news busted for BRIBES, DRUGS, or IMMORAL BEHAVIOR? Do you not think that a Congress idiot will sell you up the river of a golf outing?

ARE YOU ALLOWED TO DEFEND YOURSELF, YOUR PROPERTY, YOUR FAMILY?

Are you allowed to make a living without OVERBEARING TAXES?

I cannot put up a fence in my back yard without the GOVERNMENTS APPROVAL. I have to pay a tax, and submit to thier demands on what a fence should be. For a FENCE. A GOD DAMNED FENCE.

The BATFE is nothing more than people who want to CONTROL YOU... you have a RIGHT to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS.... do you think that you are being 'REPRESENTED' by the BATFE? That your Congress idiot is 'REPRESENTING your interests' with respect to the BATFE?

If thats what I pro-gun kook believes in then oh well... pass the tin foil (which is now made in CHINA) as I'll be needing some PRONTO.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

OK, how many idiots in Congress are REPRESENTING YOUR INTERESTS? Your VALUES? Your MORALS?

Please name me the democratic republic that guarantees that YOUR interests, YOUR values, and YOUR morals will be represented at all times in the government? If YOUR interests aren't represented, maybe you should stop and ask why that is? Vex is absolutely right to point out that we all have the ability to change things by getting involved with government. As a gun owner who DOES do some of those things (and even then not as much as I should do), I can tell you that I can always find 30 people on THR talking about the next revolution; but I can rarely get one gunowner to show up to a city council meeting, help out a pro-gun candidate on the phones, etc.

Nobody makes movies starring Mel Gibson about passing out campaign literature door-to-door while tramping through Texas streets in the summer; but that is how change gets done. It isn't quite as romantic as standing on the bridge at Concord; but holding town hall meetings and luncheons for pro-gun candidates has a lot more effect than all the patriot rhetoric combined.

As to this incident, rather than focusing on the things we do not agree on (like the communication effectiveness of Richard's unique amalgam of Braveheart and the Declaration of Independence), we should be concentrating on where we do all agree. Personally, I don't think the post Richard made was very effective in helping him out. In fact, I am sure that the ATF hoped for precisely that kind of response and planned on it when they decided to target him. Having said that, targeting a business for doing something that is within the law is wrong and ATF has a bad history in this regard. I can get on board wholeheartedly with pursuing that goal.

We've been spending a lot of time on THR lately concentrating on where we disagree and that is just natural since there isn't much to say on subjects where we do agree. However, I think it is important to remember what we do have in common and what we do agree on; because if we don't it will be an easy task to fragment us and reduce our political power.

 

[rbernie]

'taxation without representation'.... OK, how many idiots in Congress are REPRESENTING YOUR INTERESTS? Your VALUES? Your MORALS?

The ones I elected.

Have the boarders been secured?

I am prepared to repel boarders at the earliest need.

Have criminals been routed from your community?

By and large, yes.

Why are politicians in the news busted for BRIBES, DRUGS, or IMMORAL BEHAVIOR?

For the same reason that non-politicians are in the news busted for BRIBES, DRUGS, or IMMORAL BEHAVIOR - because it's human nature.

Do you not think that a Congress idiot will sell you up the river of a golf outing?

As would most any idiot, regardless of whether they're elected to Congress or not.

ARE YOU ALLOWED TO DEFEND YOURSELF, YOUR PROPERTY, YOUR FAMILY?

Yes.

Are you allowed to make a living without OVERBEARING TAXES?

If overbearing is defined as 'any', then no. If overbearing is defined as, say, something close to a Northern European tax rate, then yes.

The BATFE is nothing more than people who want to CONTROL YOU...

Actually, they want a reason to exist. Controlling us gives them that, but so can other things if redirected properly.

do you think that you are being 'REPRESENTED' by the BATFE?

I do not elect them, therefore they cannot 'represent' me.

That your Congress idiot is 'REPRESENTING your interests' with respect to the BATFE?

No - they do not perceive the problems, or believe them to be significant enough to demand change. And *that* perception is caused by the fact that 99% of their flippin' constituants do not believe there to be an issue.

You can push this problem around all you want, but in the end the reality is that you cannot get your concerns addressed unless you can convince the majority of America that there really is a problem to solve. THAT is when the elected officials take notice. Look at it this way - if your elected officials started proposing constitutional changes or offering up Federal code regarding the legal definition of marriage or the legality of certain drugs without a plurality of support within their district, you'd be all up in arms over it. Why should their behavior in regard to firearms rights and abuses be any different?

We've been spending a lot of time on THR lately concentrating on where we disagree and that is just natural since there isn't much to say on subjects where we do agree. However, I think it is important to remember what we do have in common and what we do agree on; because if we don't it will be an easy task to fragment us and reduce our political power.

Bravo, and agreed. I think that the division that I seen here is related to how to accomplish a response without alienating the very hearts-n-minds that we need to convert. If we're not willing to seek that middle ground amongst ourselves, we certainly cannot effectively carry the fight outward.

 

[tyme]

They were being unfairly taxed without representation.

Vex, the Founders didn't sign us up for random taxation contingent on representation. That would be a pure representative democracy. We have a Constitutional representative democracy, and the constitution grants no power to the government to tax, much less strictly regulate, intrastate manufacture of firearms.

 

[bogie]

Okay... Met a fellow last week, thought I'd do a search on something about gunsmiths and the new "manufacturing" stuff, and I see that y'all have taken a perfectly good thread, and degenerated it into "define the kind of government we have, and it better be my definition."

Guys, I know why we're slowly using the battle. We focus worse on the problem at hand than a hyperactive ADD/ADHD/Whatever kid immediately after a triple espresso with extra sugar...