Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
member
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2007
- Messages
- 13,146
That's interesting; thanks. I'd really like to try one like yours. A Mosin as smooth as a Krag or 88 Commission rifle - that'd be something!
Mosins: Do You Like Them?
- Thread starter Geno
- Start date
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That's interesting; thanks. I'd really like to try one like yours. A Mosin as smooth as a Krag or 88 Commission rifle - that'd be something!
Green Lantern
Member
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2006
- Messages
- 1,665
How Many Mosins do you Own? - One (as some one else put it, "just one unfortunately!" )
Which Models Do You Have? Izvhesk 91/30, 1934
How Much Did You Pay for Your Mosins? IIRC, about $89 - PLUS shipping, FFL t'fr and tax
Do You Want More Mosins? YES, I want an M44 Carbine!
Do You Hunt with Your Mosins? No, don't hunt at all, actually.
Go post some pictures...please.
I'll get back to ya, dial-up's a witch.
ETA:
(sorry for the cut-off, but it's the only pic I have)
Which Models Do You Have? Izvhesk 91/30, 1934
How Much Did You Pay for Your Mosins? IIRC, about $89 - PLUS shipping, FFL t'fr and tax
Do You Want More Mosins? YES, I want an M44 Carbine!
Do You Hunt with Your Mosins? No, don't hunt at all, actually.
Go post some pictures...please.
I'll get back to ya, dial-up's a witch.
ETA:
(sorry for the cut-off, but it's the only pic I have)
Funderb
Member
I find that it is easier to operate the bolt with the left hand, for a right hander, and you can often see left hand operation in old WWII photos, you also see soldiers in huge mittens, which would render bent bolt operation impossible. For a rested gun supplementary hand operation is fantastic for keeping sight picture.
FieroCDSP
Member
This thread makes me want to dig a fox-hole in the backyard and lie in wait for "Ze Germans". And I don't think I have a drop of Rooskie blood in me.
MaterDei
Member
Green Lantern,
That's one purty MN.
That's one purty MN.
dirtyjim
Member
i like them & i've got three of them right now.
a finn m91 that i paid $140 for several yers ago, a chinese t53 that i paid $52 for & a hungarian m44 thats in the process of being rebuilt into a modern style tactical rifle chambered in 6.5x55 swedish rimmed wildcat.
i'm going to order three more pretty soon , two to cut up & one to keep original
i hunted with the hungarian m44 before i tore it down
a finn m91 that i paid $140 for several yers ago, a chinese t53 that i paid $52 for & a hungarian m44 thats in the process of being rebuilt into a modern style tactical rifle chambered in 6.5x55 swedish rimmed wildcat.
i'm going to order three more pretty soon , two to cut up & one to keep original
i hunted with the hungarian m44 before i tore it down
LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
Member
yeah the mosin safety is one of the safest around... and damned near impossible to come off accidentally.
SimpleIsGood229
Member
I can shoot Bulgie heavy ball through my '46 M44 pretty darn fast, without any difficulty in working the bolt. Granted, this is with brass cases.
Shoot steel-cased ammo and throw in some cosmo, then yeah, sticky, sticky bolt.
Danus ex
Member
The more I get into rifle shooting, the more I've really come to like the Mosin-Nagant. I own seven and haven't yet had a bad one. I've never had sticky bolt, either.
Closed-mindedness is the primary problem the Mosin-Nagant faces with American shooters. The short, straight bolt handle, hooded post sights, and long trigger combine to turn off a surprising number of shooters. As long as you're not locked into any of the following, you can probably enjoy the Mosin:
1. Shooting Mauser-types
2. Hunting-style stocks
3. Finely-tuned triggers
4. Bench rest shooting
5. 100 yard shooting
6. Using a scope
Most bolt-action rifle shooters I see at the range do all of the above at once.
The Mosin-Nagant is adequate off the bench, but it's at its finest when you introduce more combat-type shooting variables: a variety of distances, positions, support, ammo, whatever. When you get a new Mosin-Nagant (or any other military surplus rifle, really), I suggest you do the following:
1. Grab some ammo, go to the 25 or 50 m/yd bench and check your windage. Shoot a group, then move the front sight accordingly, and repeat as necessary. Don't rely on single shots to judge your windage, and don't worry about your elevation.
2. Walk past the 100 and 150 m/yd benches and head for the 200 m/yd area. When the firing line is safe, walk out and hang some gong-style targets around 12" in diameter (or bigger if you like). Make sure it's something you can see at 200 m/yd. Back at the line, take a good prone position if you're able, set your sights on "2", and let 'er rip. You'll probably be hitting very close to the target. From there, a friend can help by telling you where you're hitting if he/she's got optics, and you can make adjustments (probably windage) as needed. Ultimately, I think 100 yard shooting is what ruins things for those who want to like their military rifle, Mosin-Nagant or otherwise.
Closed-mindedness is the primary problem the Mosin-Nagant faces with American shooters. The short, straight bolt handle, hooded post sights, and long trigger combine to turn off a surprising number of shooters. As long as you're not locked into any of the following, you can probably enjoy the Mosin:
1. Shooting Mauser-types
2. Hunting-style stocks
3. Finely-tuned triggers
4. Bench rest shooting
5. 100 yard shooting
6. Using a scope
Most bolt-action rifle shooters I see at the range do all of the above at once.
The Mosin-Nagant is adequate off the bench, but it's at its finest when you introduce more combat-type shooting variables: a variety of distances, positions, support, ammo, whatever. When you get a new Mosin-Nagant (or any other military surplus rifle, really), I suggest you do the following:
1. Grab some ammo, go to the 25 or 50 m/yd bench and check your windage. Shoot a group, then move the front sight accordingly, and repeat as necessary. Don't rely on single shots to judge your windage, and don't worry about your elevation.
2. Walk past the 100 and 150 m/yd benches and head for the 200 m/yd area. When the firing line is safe, walk out and hang some gong-style targets around 12" in diameter (or bigger if you like). Make sure it's something you can see at 200 m/yd. Back at the line, take a good prone position if you're able, set your sights on "2", and let 'er rip. You'll probably be hitting very close to the target. From there, a friend can help by telling you where you're hitting if he/she's got optics, and you can make adjustments (probably windage) as needed. Ultimately, I think 100 yard shooting is what ruins things for those who want to like their military rifle, Mosin-Nagant or otherwise.
One of my Mosins, a '43 Izhevsk, cycles that Hungarian steel-cased ammo perfectly, but I have to hit the bolt on the bench at the range to get the bolt to open with the Czech steel-cased stuff. Can't figure out why this is, but i've read on here many times that Mosins are notoriously picky with ammo.
I have another one that is a '32 Tula that I haven't shot yet which actually has a much tighter bolt. Who knows, it could be the other way around with that one.
I have another one that is a '32 Tula that I haven't shot yet which actually has a much tighter bolt. Who knows, it could be the other way around with that one.
Danus ex
Member
Interesting, rugbyer81--my two Russian Mosins are a 1932 Tula and a 1943 Izhevsk as well!
Ignition Override
Member
RNB65:
As an older guy who is fairly new to real shooting and reading about rifles (sporadic plinker with Savage .22 when young-knew nothing), I have trouble getting any so-called regular groups with the Mosin 44 at the range from about 50 yards or so. They can be 3-8 inches, any where around the bull's eye, but after a few minutes, they tend to be on either side of it in a loose group. Standing is what I prefer, and all my guns only have iron sights.
Other than the Mosin's trigger, which feels stiff (much better iron sight, groups standing with Mini 14,30, SKS), what are the likely causes?
By contrast to the Mosin, the Saiga .223 has by far the smoothest trigger of any gun I've ever handled (the vast majority in gun stores). That Saiga has an overall appeal which I can not begin to explain, much more than its AK 'cousin'.
Realize that I've never had more than brief (few minutes) instruction from a firearms pro/former instructor recently on basic techniques, but have been plinking at grapefruits etc in the water since October. Can easily hit an orange in the water with the other carbines from about 30-40 feet, often with the first shot-split about in half and in a trajectory to about 20 feet.
Except for my amateur skills, would a gunsmith be able to really help the Mosin's trigger, or would that "GunDoc" place charge much?
As an older guy who is fairly new to real shooting and reading about rifles (sporadic plinker with Savage .22 when young-knew nothing), I have trouble getting any so-called regular groups with the Mosin 44 at the range from about 50 yards or so. They can be 3-8 inches, any where around the bull's eye, but after a few minutes, they tend to be on either side of it in a loose group. Standing is what I prefer, and all my guns only have iron sights.
Other than the Mosin's trigger, which feels stiff (much better iron sight, groups standing with Mini 14,30, SKS), what are the likely causes?
By contrast to the Mosin, the Saiga .223 has by far the smoothest trigger of any gun I've ever handled (the vast majority in gun stores). That Saiga has an overall appeal which I can not begin to explain, much more than its AK 'cousin'.
Realize that I've never had more than brief (few minutes) instruction from a firearms pro/former instructor recently on basic techniques, but have been plinking at grapefruits etc in the water since October. Can easily hit an orange in the water with the other carbines from about 30-40 feet, often with the first shot-split about in half and in a trajectory to about 20 feet.
Except for my amateur skills, would a gunsmith be able to really help the Mosin's trigger, or would that "GunDoc" place charge much?
dirtyjim
Member
what ammo have you tried? most of the m44's i've had prefered heavy ball & all of my mosins hated wolf ammo. i would try a few differnt types of ammo & see if that helps first. if it doesn't i would check the crown to see if it has any muzzle damage & needs to be counterbored. if it looks ok then i would go to the stock & check the fit on it. a easy way to do it if you don't have any inletting black is to take a candle & soot the underside of the action then place it back into the stock, when you pull it back out you will be able to see if your getting even contact on the receiver. repeat the process with the barrel. you can also try shimming the action in the stock, my finn m91 shoots best with a 1/32" shim under the recoil lug. if you have really bad fitting stock you can pillar bed it.
your best bet on the trigger is to swap it for a finn m39 trigger if you can find one.
most gunsmiths would charge you double the price of the gun to rework the trigger but you can do it yourself very easily.
one trick is to cut some shims from a soda can & place about 3 or 4 of then between the sear & the action. you need to test the gun by smacking the butt with a rubber hammer to make sure it will not fire. to cut the shims take a pair of scissors & cut a 3x3 section from a soda can & place it between two pieces of plywood then drill a bunch of holes in it with a bit thats just big enough to let the sear bolt go through. then cut the shims out with a pair of scissors.
another trick used by finn target shooters was to modify the trigger & sear as shown in the pictures below.
first bend the sear as shown
then polish the shaded area in the picture with a fine stone along with the mating area of the trigger
then remove metal from the sear in the shaded area then polish with a fine stone
the finns also used a very small mousetrap type spring to take the slack out of the trigger.
if you want a drop in trigger fix buy a hueber triggeer or if your very, very ,very lucky you'll find a valmet adjustable target trigger for your mosin, i haven't been that lucky yet so i'm adapting a bold trigger for a mauser m98 to one of my mosins & the timney trigger for a sako L579 has also been adapted to work on a mosin. with both of those you have to regrind to front of the sear to act as the bolt stock but i'm working on a better solution for that
I concur with trying different ammo, checking the crown, and such, but one very important thing omitted is to make sure your action screws are tight. Those two bolts attaching the action to magazine tend to work loose over time, and then your accuracy goes to hell.
I own 2 (91/30 1942 and m38 1943) just ordered a 91/30 hex reciever. Just recently I was watching a special on the siege of Stalingrad. They were showing how the Germans were stopped. One example was they took the German mauser and Russian Mosin plus the respective cleaning oils to a freezer that was -47 degrees Farenheit. The kind of winter that Stalingrad was having. After a day they went back. The cleaning oil that the germans used was solid and the Mauser was unable to be cycled to battery. The mosin cleaning oil (part oil, part gasoline) was still viscous and the rifle was able (with a little dificulty) to be cycle to battery. Not very scientific and I am sure the German soldier found ways to keep his rifle at the ready. But clearly if you were in the battle in -47 F weather and saw a Mosin and a Mauser laying there I think I know which one I would pick up!!!
farmallmta
Member
- Joined
- May 9, 2006
- Messages
- 69
Mosin, Nyet! Mauser, Da! K-31, Da!
Not dumping on anybody's favorite rifle, but here's my MN experience.
I was introduced to vintage military rifles and caught the bug for them by shooting a friend's Mauser. I then acquired two VZ-24's, one sporterized and the other factory original, and the sweetest rifle ever made, a K-31. So I'm very fond of older rifles and particularly fond of the WWII-era bolt action types.
I then found a nice looking M-44 and had a friend who is into MN's check it out with me. He pointed out all the excellent features such as perfect head space, pristine bore, smooth stock and 98% original finish, truly a nice, nice M-44. So I bought it for $69 and some good ammo to shoot with it.
Come range time, it was the most disappointing thing I've ever experienced. At 50 yards shooting from a rest with a 3MPH wind from BEHIND me, the groups were 4 inches and variable. The variable is what puzzled me. The second range day, I brought ammo my friend assured me was primo for the M-44. Slightly better performance, groups down to 3" with less variability. But still sloppy compared to my VZ-24's and K-31. I mentioned to my MN buddy what the groups were spacing at and the variability, and he looked shocked and said I had a really good Mosin because his best usually does 5" groups. OMG!!!
Ignoring the hellish kick and god-awful noise of the thing, 3-5" groups at 50 yards might be great if you want to see the Kraut you hoped to shoot in the heart thrash around in gut-shot agony, but since I like to KILL my game animals instead of tracking them for 3 hours, that was the end of the Mosin-Nagant story for me.
I gladly traded it for a case of 8mm Romanian ammo.
This article seems to indicate that the Mosin can do better than mine did.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/huntingwithmosin/index.asp
Are any less noisy and kick-prone? Is there some magic formula where you "pull" down to keep the barrel steady or something? Do you have to be sh*tfaced on vodka to get into the MN shooting groove? LOL.
Hopefully, y'all are doing better with your MN's. I've never shot one that has done better so I don't know if they are any better than the one I briefly owned.
Not dumping on anybody's favorite rifle, but here's my MN experience.
I was introduced to vintage military rifles and caught the bug for them by shooting a friend's Mauser. I then acquired two VZ-24's, one sporterized and the other factory original, and the sweetest rifle ever made, a K-31. So I'm very fond of older rifles and particularly fond of the WWII-era bolt action types.
I then found a nice looking M-44 and had a friend who is into MN's check it out with me. He pointed out all the excellent features such as perfect head space, pristine bore, smooth stock and 98% original finish, truly a nice, nice M-44. So I bought it for $69 and some good ammo to shoot with it.
Come range time, it was the most disappointing thing I've ever experienced. At 50 yards shooting from a rest with a 3MPH wind from BEHIND me, the groups were 4 inches and variable. The variable is what puzzled me. The second range day, I brought ammo my friend assured me was primo for the M-44. Slightly better performance, groups down to 3" with less variability. But still sloppy compared to my VZ-24's and K-31. I mentioned to my MN buddy what the groups were spacing at and the variability, and he looked shocked and said I had a really good Mosin because his best usually does 5" groups. OMG!!!
Ignoring the hellish kick and god-awful noise of the thing, 3-5" groups at 50 yards might be great if you want to see the Kraut you hoped to shoot in the heart thrash around in gut-shot agony, but since I like to KILL my game animals instead of tracking them for 3 hours, that was the end of the Mosin-Nagant story for me.
I gladly traded it for a case of 8mm Romanian ammo.
This article seems to indicate that the Mosin can do better than mine did.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/huntingwithmosin/index.asp
Are any less noisy and kick-prone? Is there some magic formula where you "pull" down to keep the barrel steady or something? Do you have to be sh*tfaced on vodka to get into the MN shooting groove? LOL.
Hopefully, y'all are doing better with your MN's. I've never shot one that has done better so I don't know if they are any better than the one I briefly owned.
Ash
Member
Did you fire with the bayonet extended or folded back? That really does make a difference.
I have found the 91/30's to be more accurate and easier to shoot (I do have a 91/59 that is very accurate) but my most accurate are Finnish. My absolutely most accurate is an M28/30.
Ash
I have found the 91/30's to be more accurate and easier to shoot (I do have a 91/59 that is very accurate) but my most accurate are Finnish. My absolutely most accurate is an M28/30.
Ash
RNB65
Member
You might try tinkering with the screws that hold everything together. If a stock screw is a little too tight, it might be putting pressure on the barrel and causing it to wander as it heats up.
Also, try different ammo. If you're shooting heavy ball, try light ball. Ammo can make a diff in any gun.
I always use a front end benchrest for stability. Try bracing the gun on something and see if that helps any.
Beyond that, I'd say take it to a gunsmith and let him check the condition of the throat, bore, and crown. Due to their age and who-knows-what maintenance history, every Mosin is a mystery unto itself. Fortunately, they're pretty cheap and you may have to buy several before you find one that is reasonably accurate. I suppose I got pretty lucky and got a good shooter on my first purchase.
p.s. Oh yeah, as others have mentioned, make sure you have the bayonet extended when you shoot. I don't use a bayonet on my 91/30, but it apparently can make quite a difference on the M44.
Cosmoline
Member
There are much better Mosins than bargain bin M44's. You can also take steps to improve the accuracy of the rough ones. My long Finns are very quiet, have little flash and little recoil. I've shot them without ear protection before. Not that I'd recommend such a thing but it didn't have any major impact on me. Nothing like a carbine would.
Also the Polish M44's tend to be much more accurate than the wartime Soviet ones, so you can check those out.
Judging Mosins from a ratty Big 5 bin sample is like judging all Mausers from a ratty Turk from the rough side of the trench.
Also the Polish M44's tend to be much more accurate than the wartime Soviet ones, so you can check those out.
Judging Mosins from a ratty Big 5 bin sample is like judging all Mausers from a ratty Turk from the rough side of the trench.
You got the less accurate gun of the Mosin-Nagant family, even if ou pick a top specimen construction quality wise....and you need to shoot it with the bayonet extended..this may easily explain the wide variance in your results.
The biggest problem with the Mosins, as I stated before, is the extreme variability in production quality...some are laser accurate, others could not hit a barn door from 50 yards.....I was lucky enough to get all 3 of mine, deadly accurate...inspect the rifle the best you can before you buy..take your time....as rule of thumb, avoid the Mosins produced during the WWI and especially those made during the first years of WWII (1940-1943).
For accuracy work you should stick with the long rifles and avoid the carbines (M-38 and M-44...however the M-38 is generally more accurate than the M-44)
The most accurate on average are, notoriously, the Finns.
As general guide, the best Russian 91/30s are the ones produced up to couple of years before WWII, let's say from 1934 to 1938, maybe until the beginning of 1939 and the few one made after the war when, eventually, the production stopped for good.
Last edited:
Franco2shoot
Member
Someone indicated there was a Mosin category. If so can you point me to it? I can't find any dedicated thread, but sure wish there was one.
KKKKFL
KKKKFL
DMK
Member
Ah, let's see:
One 1891, three 91/30s, one 1938, one 1944, two 91/59s, and three Finn M39s. So that's 11 all together. Plus a Finn SVT-40. Aside from the Finns, I never paid more than $100 for any of them. Most were about $70.
I mainly got into them because they were cheap actually, but the more I learned about the history and the design, I started to appreciate the Mosin-Nagant for what it was. They are crude and none of the Russian guns are anywhere near being tack drivers (with one of the 91/30s, it is a challenge just to get all the shots on the paper). But the old adage that "only accurate guns are interesting" is close minded and just not true.
Honestly, I don't know if I'd buy any more. If I did, it would likely be a Finn or maybe a Polish M44.
While not actually a Mosin-Nagant, here's my Polish wz.48. It's a single shot 22LR trainer for the M44. This little beauty was found hiding in the rack at a gunshow and purchased for about $120
Ash
Member
Okay, I'll bite.
Finnish Issue or Refurbs
1915 Izhevsk M91
1915 New England Westinghouse M91
1917 Remington M91
1915 Tula "Peter the Great" M91
1914 Sestrorysk M91
1922 Tula M91
1926 Tikka M91 - unstepped
1927 Tikka M91 - Stepped
1926 Relined P26
Undated M24
Undated P Series, relined
1924 Tula Dragoon
VKT M27
Tikka M27
Tikka M28
SIG M28
SAKO M28/30
1940 SAKO M39 - Straight Wrist
1942 Belgian B M91
1942 Belgian B M39
1943 SAKO SkY M39 - matching stock
1941 SAKO M39
1942 VKT M39
1970 unmarked M39
Russian/Non-Finnish
1916 Izhevsk ex-dragoon - eagles intact
1943 Izhevsk 91/59
1943 Tula 91/30 PU Sniper (Sarco Import)
1943 Izhevsk M44 Trials carbine
1915 Czech M91/38
Polish M44
Hungarian M44
Romanian M44
Chinese Type 53
1914 Tula M91 - Serbian with war damaged stock
1943 Izhevsk M91/30
Finnish Issue or Refurbs
1915 Izhevsk M91
1915 New England Westinghouse M91
1917 Remington M91
1915 Tula "Peter the Great" M91
1914 Sestrorysk M91
1922 Tula M91
1926 Tikka M91 - unstepped
1927 Tikka M91 - Stepped
1926 Relined P26
Undated M24
Undated P Series, relined
1924 Tula Dragoon
VKT M27
Tikka M27
Tikka M28
SIG M28
SAKO M28/30
1940 SAKO M39 - Straight Wrist
1942 Belgian B M91
1942 Belgian B M39
1943 SAKO SkY M39 - matching stock
1941 SAKO M39
1942 VKT M39
1970 unmarked M39
Russian/Non-Finnish
1916 Izhevsk ex-dragoon - eagles intact
1943 Izhevsk 91/59
1943 Tula 91/30 PU Sniper (Sarco Import)
1943 Izhevsk M44 Trials carbine
1915 Czech M91/38
Polish M44
Hungarian M44
Romanian M44
Chinese Type 53
1914 Tula M91 - Serbian with war damaged stock
1943 Izhevsk M91/30
- Status
