Mossberg v. Saiga (12GA)
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4thPointOfContact
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Same here...had the opportunity to get a converted Saiga for $600 and passed after throwing it around a bit. Wound up with a 930 SPX as being a bit more versatile in the long run.
Saiga would beat the pants off of a SPX in reloading speed but I don't think that opportunity would occur with great enough regularity to be worthwhile.
Of course what I REALLY want is a Monarch P-12 bullpup shotgun with the 20-round magazine...... but it's been put on "indefinite hold until the political situation clears up"
just damn
Saiga would beat the pants off of a SPX in reloading speed but I don't think that opportunity would occur with great enough regularity to be worthwhile.
Of course what I REALLY want is a Monarch P-12 bullpup shotgun with the 20-round magazine...... but it's been put on "indefinite hold until the political situation clears up"
just damn
I just took my Saiga 12 to the range and it was a lot of fun with the 12 rd surefire mags. Seeing thse will be banned, I think they are a good investment. I don't know, but the recoil blast didn't bother me at all and I was able to shoot quickly and hit my targets dead on with buck shot using the irons. Not too mention the speed of loading the mags.
I am new to shotguns though and I am not an expert. Seeing I can do all I described with my Saiga 12, what is the advantage of the other shotgun you mentioned? BTW, you can also get a 20rd drum for Saiga 12. I just looked at the website for the Monarchs and they do look awesome. Hmm.. How much do these go for?
BTW, $600 for a converted saiga is an amazing deal, assuming they didn't just throw a TAPCO stock and pistol grip on it. I paid $600 for mine total.. Guess I got ripped, that included the FFL fees and shipping. I have seen them for even way more than I paid.
I am new to shotguns though and I am not an expert. Seeing I can do all I described with my Saiga 12, what is the advantage of the other shotgun you mentioned? BTW, you can also get a 20rd drum for Saiga 12. I just looked at the website for the Monarchs and they do look awesome. Hmm.. How much do these go for?
BTW, $600 for a converted saiga is an amazing deal, assuming they didn't just throw a TAPCO stock and pistol grip on it. I paid $600 for mine total.. Guess I got ripped, that included the FFL fees and shipping. I have seen them for even way more than I paid.
WardenWolf
member
At that price comparison, Saiga 12. Hands down. Aside from being an excellent gun to start with, they're also the world's most customizable shotgun. Because they're AK-based, there's near-infinite ways to customize one to your exact preferences. In the end, you wind up with the gun you really want, not the gun some company is telling you that you want.
WardenWolf
member
For the shotgun, it wouldn't much matter. The skeleton stock would give you whatever you need in that department if you wish to change. You can get a rubber pad for it that's designed for the SVD (the Saiga skeleton stock is a modified SVD design). Saiga shotguns are light, about half a pound lighter than a Remington 1100, are frequently noted as having less recoil than other semi-automatic shotguns.
You can get Saigas for $550 shipped these days there is a post over in the saiga 12 forums that says where. I own a Saiga and really like them but be warned they may take some fiddling with to get to run correctly with low brass shot and low power loads in general. This is all fine and dandy when they were $300-$350 but now that they are over $500 some people don't like that. Also some recent Saigas escaped the factory with too few or misaligned gas vent holes. RAA is a great company though and will replace or fix it and pay for shipping both ways. They stand behind their product 100% ask me how I know. The problem I am having with my Saiga is that it has turned into a money pit. $300 on a conversion, $250 on a red dot, $250 on magazines, $100 on a polychoke. You get the picture.
If this is your first shotgun get the mossy. If you want a mag fed AK shotgun that is indestructible, get the Saiga while you can. Now that there is a drum available for it it is just matter of time before the ATF slaps it with a DD designation like the rest of the mag fed shotguns.
If this is your first shotgun get the mossy. If you want a mag fed AK shotgun that is indestructible, get the Saiga while you can. Now that there is a drum available for it it is just matter of time before the ATF slaps it with a DD designation like the rest of the mag fed shotguns.
eddie c-clamp
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...My first shotty was a S-12. Only got it three months ago......Just bought an older 870 and now I should be complete in the shotty category...If you really like the Moss...go for the 590 A1....its their top of the line...
I'd say get the Saiga 12 first.JMHO
JImbothefiveth
Member
You can reload the mossberg faster from a loose box of cartridges, and it isn't limited to synthetic stocks.
There has also been some people saying that if you leave the saiga 12 ready to use for a while the shell can be crushed, rendering the gun useless.
The saiga 12 is more likely to be banned, but if this is your only shotgun, the mossberg might be easier to set up for hunting.
There has also been some people saying that if you leave the saiga 12 ready to use for a while the shell can be crushed, rendering the gun useless.
The saiga 12 is more likely to be banned, but if this is your only shotgun, the mossberg might be easier to set up for hunting.
Mr. Bojangles
Member
The saiga is a lot of fun but it is finicky (at least for the first several boxes) as to what it will feed and not feed. Mags prices are also ridiculous. However, you will be the coolest kid on the block if you have one.
Gunfighter123
Member
"JImbothefiveth You can reload the mossberg faster from a loose box of cartridges, and it isn't limited to synthetic stocks.
There has also been some people saying that if you leave the saiga 12 ready to use for a while the shell can be crushed, rendering the gun useless.
The saiga 12 is more likely to be banned, but if this is your only shotgun, the mossberg might be easier to set up for hunting. "
Yes , you can load the Moss faster from a "box of loose shells" ---- BUT you can reload the Saiga FASTER with another spare mag.
The Saiga IS NOT limited to synthetic stocks ---- do a search at the Saiga web boards and you will see more then one wood stocked S-12.
As for the "crushed shell" ---- there are a few fixes , you can grind the bolt a bit or you can lock the bolt back and leave a loaded mag in the gun --- BTW , I have not seen/heard of the S-12 not being able to chamber a rd. -- I have heard of shells being SLIGHTLY deformed but still being chambered and fired.
"The saiga 12 is more likely to be banned" ---- well ,I can't really argue with that logiclly --- there is NO LOGIC when it comes to BANNING GUNS.
There has also been some people saying that if you leave the saiga 12 ready to use for a while the shell can be crushed, rendering the gun useless.
The saiga 12 is more likely to be banned, but if this is your only shotgun, the mossberg might be easier to set up for hunting. "
Yes , you can load the Moss faster from a "box of loose shells" ---- BUT you can reload the Saiga FASTER with another spare mag.
The Saiga IS NOT limited to synthetic stocks ---- do a search at the Saiga web boards and you will see more then one wood stocked S-12.
As for the "crushed shell" ---- there are a few fixes , you can grind the bolt a bit or you can lock the bolt back and leave a loaded mag in the gun --- BTW , I have not seen/heard of the S-12 not being able to chamber a rd. -- I have heard of shells being SLIGHTLY deformed but still being chambered and fired.
"The saiga 12 is more likely to be banned" ---- well ,I can't really argue with that logiclly --- there is NO LOGIC when it comes to BANNING GUNS.
Gunfighter123
Member
Besides , show me a Moss as cool looking as my S-12 !!!!!!
WardenWolf
member
My primary complaint about most American-designed shotguns is that you cannot fully disassemble them. Typically the receiver is a solid piece that has various action components you cannot remove. I'm not sure if that's the case with a Mossberg, but it's certainly the case with many others. Even if they can be removed, removal and reassembly is a long, complex task. The Saiga can be fully disassembled for cleaning in under a minute with no tools. You really cannot argue with that.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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I had the Saiga and sold it. Although it's a good firearm and ran flawlessly, it's inferior to the Mossberg (and similar shotguns) for a variety of reasons:
-The Saiga is very heavy, what with the side plate mount and all, if you run with any kind of optic (ESD, etc.)
-The Saiga's ergos leave a lot to be desired, including a pretty bad trigger, and awkwardness of putting your off hand "around" the mag to the front grip, particularly with a drum mag.
-The Saiga is very expensive to accessorize and make more ergo, should you decide to do that, making it's ultimate price 2x-3x the mossberg, if you run with ACE parts or similar.
-The Saiga's factory sights are off (at least mine were) - it needs a taller front sight (it was hitting way too high).
-The Saiga's sights are very high to the bore line, and optics are even higher if you use them
-(perhaps most importantly) with the Saiga, you are at a major disadvantage shooting from the prone position - the mag hits the ground, cocks your gun at an angle, and screws up a smooth quick shot with level sights.
So the Saiga is a fun toy (and like all guns, everybody should have at least one. ), but for serious defense work - home defense, IPSC 3-gun, etc., I'd stick with a conventional like the Mossberg, or a Benelli or Remington or whatnot. The Saiga does cycle rounds very fast and reliably however - it's a hoot.
-The Saiga is very heavy, what with the side plate mount and all, if you run with any kind of optic (ESD, etc.)
-The Saiga's ergos leave a lot to be desired, including a pretty bad trigger, and awkwardness of putting your off hand "around" the mag to the front grip, particularly with a drum mag.
-The Saiga is very expensive to accessorize and make more ergo, should you decide to do that, making it's ultimate price 2x-3x the mossberg, if you run with ACE parts or similar.
-The Saiga's factory sights are off (at least mine were) - it needs a taller front sight (it was hitting way too high).
-The Saiga's sights are very high to the bore line, and optics are even higher if you use them
-(perhaps most importantly) with the Saiga, you are at a major disadvantage shooting from the prone position - the mag hits the ground, cocks your gun at an angle, and screws up a smooth quick shot with level sights.
So the Saiga is a fun toy (and like all guns, everybody should have at least one.
), but for serious defense work - home defense, IPSC 3-gun, etc., I'd stick with a conventional like the Mossberg, or a Benelli or Remington or whatnot. The Saiga does cycle rounds very fast and reliably however - it's a hoot.Gunfighter123
Member
Hello,
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12
Shows the Saiga S-12 as weighing 3.6 kg. or 7lb. 15 oz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_11-87
Shows the 18" Rem. 1100 as 3.6kg. or 7lb. 15oz.
The trigger can be smoothed/touched up --- mine has a very nice pull of about 5lbs. with no creep etc.
Awkward ?? No more awkward then the M1A , AR15 , FAL etc. etc.
Saiga S-12 expensive to accessorize , YES it is -- price is about the same as ANY custom firearm.
Factory sights are "off" --- not on mine or the other dozen I fired and the other 20/30 I have seen/handled.
S-12 sights are high to the bore line --- YES,they are. Which is a reason the S-12 has a softer recoil,IMHO.
A disadvantage when shooting prone ?? Yes , it COULD be. And the same can be said for any BOTTOM fed mag weapon -- no Military longarm that I know feeds from the side or top like a Bren etc.
With a 5rd. mag , the S-12 is about 4 inches "deeper" then a tube fed SG. ---- not a lot of going prone in a HD situation and with just tilting the S-12 on to the left side a bit or useing your elbows , not much of a disadvantage IMHO.
I've been shooting IPSC , 3 Gun etc for a VERY long time {USPSA#L937} and the S-12s are showing up more and more --- they also put you into Unlimited/Open Class -- reason being they are so fast to reload etc.
Dr. THW ---- I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone else. I have read MANY of your posts and they are informative and MOSTLY correct --- I just have a different opinion of the S-12s then you. PLEASE do not take ANYTHING in my posts personal as they are not ment to be.
Respectfully --- GF123
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga-12
Shows the Saiga S-12 as weighing 3.6 kg. or 7lb. 15 oz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_11-87
Shows the 18" Rem. 1100 as 3.6kg. or 7lb. 15oz.
The trigger can be smoothed/touched up --- mine has a very nice pull of about 5lbs. with no creep etc.
Awkward ?? No more awkward then the M1A , AR15 , FAL etc. etc.
Saiga S-12 expensive to accessorize , YES it is -- price is about the same as ANY custom firearm.
Factory sights are "off" --- not on mine or the other dozen I fired and the other 20/30 I have seen/handled.
S-12 sights are high to the bore line --- YES,they are. Which is a reason the S-12 has a softer recoil,IMHO.
A disadvantage when shooting prone ?? Yes , it COULD be. And the same can be said for any BOTTOM fed mag weapon -- no Military longarm that I know feeds from the side or top like a Bren etc.
With a 5rd. mag , the S-12 is about 4 inches "deeper" then a tube fed SG. ---- not a lot of going prone in a HD situation and with just tilting the S-12 on to the left side a bit or useing your elbows , not much of a disadvantage IMHO.
I've been shooting IPSC , 3 Gun etc for a VERY long time {USPSA#L937} and the S-12s are showing up more and more --- they also put you into Unlimited/Open Class -- reason being they are so fast to reload etc.
Dr. THW ---- I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone else. I have read MANY of your posts and they are informative and MOSTLY correct --- I just have a different opinion of the S-12s then you. PLEASE do not take ANYTHING in my posts personal as they are not ment to be.
Respectfully --- GF123
I own a saiga, love it and wouldn't trade it. One big draw back to me is the cost of mags. I get them at $35 but they often sell much close to $50. Factor in the price of at least an extra mag or two because a saiga with out a spare mag is much less, cool, fun , and usefull.
Also as one said they are lots of fun to modify and customize but one can spend a lot of money doing it. They are not forcedly very expensive to customize as indicated above although that might depend n your definition of very expensive. There are plenty of threads on here that discuss pros and cons of the saiga.
For HD one can get a very servicable gun for less money.
I will say some of the critiques above are based on presumptions or are readily cured. The trigger is vastly improved when one convert it. The shooting prone crituque presumes use of 10 or twelve round mag.
weight of the side rail mount presumes its use and it is not the only way to mount optics.
If I wanted an out of the box ready to go gun I would buy the mossberg. I like saigas enough to have bought multiple and am still lusting for an 8" shorty.
Also as one said they are lots of fun to modify and customize but one can spend a lot of money doing it. They are not forcedly very expensive to customize as indicated above although that might depend n your definition of very expensive. There are plenty of threads on here that discuss pros and cons of the saiga.
For HD one can get a very servicable gun for less money.
I will say some of the critiques above are based on presumptions or are readily cured. The trigger is vastly improved when one convert it. The shooting prone crituque presumes use of 10 or twelve round mag.
weight of the side rail mount presumes its use and it is not the only way to mount optics.
If I wanted an out of the box ready to go gun I would buy the mossberg. I like saigas enough to have bought multiple and am still lusting for an 8" shorty.
I agree with most ofyour post. I will say that I heard about canted S12 sights for a while but had never seen them. My brother bought one and it had canted sights. We returned it and the shop had two others one of which had canted sights one did not. So it can and does happen. Based on the number of S12s I have owned and or seen I do not believe it is common though. The posibility that it might exist is real. Given how hot a commidity they are it might not be easy to exchange one that came that way. That said I think changing the sights is a nive addition anyways but still.
Gunfighter123
Member
Hello Girodin,
Glad to hear you like your S-12 , YES , the mags are not cheap. That being said --- about 15/20 years ago , I had a USAS-12 ---- used 10rd.stick or 20rd. drums , the price on extra mags for it 20 yrs. ago , was about the same as S-12 mags are NOW !!!!!
Ten and Twelve S-12 mags are under $50 at places right now. The MD drums are, IMHO, overpriced at around $300 !!!!
But a 100+ rd. drum for a AR15 rifle etc. is over $200 !!!!
How is your S-12 with slugs,Buck and birdshot ??? Mine has 100s of ast. rds. thru it and not a single FTF etc.
Glad to hear you like your S-12 , YES , the mags are not cheap. That being said --- about 15/20 years ago , I had a USAS-12 ---- used 10rd.stick or 20rd. drums , the price on extra mags for it 20 yrs. ago , was about the same as S-12 mags are NOW !!!!!
Ten and Twelve S-12 mags are under $50 at places right now. The MD drums are, IMHO, overpriced at around $300 !!!!
But a 100+ rd. drum for a AR15 rifle etc. is over $200 !!!!
How is your S-12 with slugs,Buck and birdshot ??? Mine has 100s of ast. rds. thru it and not a single FTF etc.
ijosef
Member
Do you guys see any disadvantages of putting magazine tube extensions on the more common autoloading shotguns like the Mossberg 930 and the Remington 1100? All of the ones (including my 1100) have fairly small capacities (4+1), although I assume if you've got a 24" or longer barrel you could get a rather large mag tube extension that could double your capacity or more. Would such a tube extension negatively affect the balance of the gun when loaded to capacity?
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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ok, gunfighter, no problem. Believe me, I'm not saying that the Saiga is a BAD choice for home defense or 3-gun, but IMO, not as good of a choice - So I do in fact have to take further issue with several things you said:
True enough that the base models are the same weight, but *IF* (and granted, that's a big if) you want to run with an ESD (dot sight), then they become much heavier, because even the lightest aluminum mount that goes on the side plate is much heavier than a mount which would be installed on a "standard shotgun.
My Saiga trigger was quite simply not nearly as good as a "standard" shotgun - it was both "longer" (more travel) and a bit heavier. Not as crisp either. Sure you could pay money to smooth it up or do it yourself, but that's still a disadvantage, because then you have to spend time and/or money.
Very true. Not any more awkward than the ones you mention. But that's not what we're comparing it to - we're comparing it to non-detachable mag fed shotguns. Red herring/straw man.
First not true, I don't think - the Saiga accessories cost a lot more, in part because there are not millions of them out there like brownmossremchester. Second, even if that were true (same expense to customize), the Saiga NEEDS accessorizing more so than "standard" shotguns, due to their poor ergos from the factory. So it's like buying a bill to pay, since very few people are going to shoot them as is, and even fewer are going to shoot them WELL as is.
Well, ok, not on the 30 you handled, but on the ONE I had (which is the ONLY one that mattered to me), they were way off. So again, I was buying a bill because I would have had to find a taller front sight and get it installed. The pattern was centered 10-12" higher than the line of sight - couldn't even hunt turkeys with it like I wanted to for that reason. So you're buying at least a CHANCE of a lemon like mine, at a much higher chance than getting a lemon with a brownmossremchester.
Hmmm, ok, I'll give you that one! So there's both an upside and a downside to the higher line of sight - to me, the downside outweighs the upside.
Right. But again, we're comparing the Saiga to a NON-bottom-fed weapon - a Mossberg with a tube mag.
With a 5 round mag, you're not getting the true advantage offered by the gun in the first place. When using a 10-rounder, as most people will, or the 8-rounder, or a drum, it definitely intereferes! (well maybe not the 8-rounder - not sure on that one).
I'll give you that, too - the reloading time factor is HUGE, and that one huge factor *may* overcome the many disadvantages I've outlined to some people. But not to me, and I don't think to most others. But if three or four of the top five 3-gunners at the finals at nationals all use Saigas at some point, then I'm sure I'd change my tune!
The Saiga *may* be faster-cycling as well (I'm not sure). But it's very very fast - I could rip off 10 in an incredibly short amount of time. But I never tried with with a tube-fed semi-auto, so have no basis of comparison.
True enough that the base models are the same weight, but *IF* (and granted, that's a big if) you want to run with an ESD (dot sight), then they become much heavier, because even the lightest aluminum mount that goes on the side plate is much heavier than a mount which would be installed on a "standard shotgun.
My Saiga trigger was quite simply not nearly as good as a "standard" shotgun - it was both "longer" (more travel) and a bit heavier. Not as crisp either. Sure you could pay money to smooth it up or do it yourself, but that's still a disadvantage, because then you have to spend time and/or money.
Very true. Not any more awkward than the ones you mention. But that's not what we're comparing it to - we're comparing it to non-detachable mag fed shotguns. Red herring/straw man.
First not true, I don't think - the Saiga accessories cost a lot more, in part because there are not millions of them out there like brownmossremchester. Second, even if that were true (same expense to customize), the Saiga NEEDS accessorizing more so than "standard" shotguns, due to their poor ergos from the factory. So it's like buying a bill to pay, since very few people are going to shoot them as is, and even fewer are going to shoot them WELL as is.
Well, ok, not on the 30 you handled, but on the ONE I had (which is the ONLY one that mattered to me), they were way off. So again, I was buying a bill because I would have had to find a taller front sight and get it installed. The pattern was centered 10-12" higher than the line of sight - couldn't even hunt turkeys with it like I wanted to for that reason. So you're buying at least a CHANCE of a lemon like mine, at a much higher chance than getting a lemon with a brownmossremchester.
Hmmm, ok, I'll give you that one!
So there's both an upside and a downside to the higher line of sight - to me, the downside outweighs the upside.Right. But again, we're comparing the Saiga to a NON-bottom-fed weapon - a Mossberg with a tube mag.
With a 5 round mag, you're not getting the true advantage offered by the gun in the first place. When using a 10-rounder, as most people will, or the 8-rounder, or a drum, it definitely intereferes! (well maybe not the 8-rounder - not sure on that one).
I'll give you that, too - the reloading time factor is HUGE, and that one huge factor *may* overcome the many disadvantages I've outlined to some people. But not to me, and I don't think to most others. But if three or four of the top five 3-gunners at the finals at nationals all use Saigas at some point, then I'm sure I'd change my tune!
The Saiga *may* be faster-cycling as well (I'm not sure). But it's very very fast - I could rip off 10 in an incredibly short amount of time. But I never tried with with a tube-fed semi-auto, so have no basis of comparison.
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You do know that ProMag makes 10 round Saiga 12 magazines that cost $30 and they work just as well as the AGP or surefire some even say better? Anyways the AGP 10 round and Surefire 12 round mags can be had for $45 these days which is not terrible. Plus the 5 round mags can be had for $20 and I guess I hear some people say you are not using the full potential of the shotgun but I prefer the 5 rounders.
Someone will come out with double stack mags soon and a 10 round mini drum is in the works for you short guys whose high cap mags are dragging on the ground or who only crawl and shoot prone with their shotguns.
Also the trigger after a conversion is the same as a good AK trigger, nice and crisp. How heavy are AK scope mounts mine is about half pound max, like any AK mount, or put on an Ultimak rail at ounces, I am not sure though why this is a big deal. I see those tactical shell holders on pump guns all the time with 5 rounds on it that has to be at least the weight of a scope mount if not more.
Someone will come out with double stack mags soon and a 10 round mini drum is in the works for you short guys whose high cap mags are dragging on the ground or who only crawl and shoot prone with their shotguns.
Also the trigger after a conversion is the same as a good AK trigger, nice and crisp. How heavy are AK scope mounts mine is about half pound max, like any AK mount, or put on an Ultimak rail at ounces, I am not sure though why this is a big deal. I see those tactical shell holders on pump guns all the time with 5 rounds on it that has to be at least the weight of a scope mount if not more.
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