My letter to the Sportsman's Guide about their shipping Restrictions to the PRK.

[El Rojo]

Here is the letter I wrote to the Sportsman's Guide about their shipping restrictions in their Fall 2004 Shooter's Catalog. If any of you agree with me, go to their contact page and tell them so. I have also included a link to this thread so they can see how things are going. If they don't want to change their policy, no big deal, I won't do business with them. There are plenty of stores out there who would be happy to take my money. I don't want to spit venom at these guys either. Just a simple "hey why are you doing this to me and do you realize we are hurting each other for no reason?"
***********************************************************
I am a little frustrated with your haphazard shipping restrictions concerning California. For example, you will not ship HX4A-64175 AR-15 Carbine Stock to California. I have a California legal FAB-10 and there is no law prohibiting the purchase of a stock. I might understand this one as you don't want people to inadvertantly create an "assault weapon" by placeing a collapsible stock on their rifle. However, all AR-15s in California are already registered as assault weapons and so a collapsible stock will do nothing to change the status of a firearm. There are also California legal FAB-10s that can have any of the old Federal Assault Weapons Ban features they want as these firearms are not "centerfire rifles with a detachable magazine".

This is where your policies really get crazy. You have also restricted shippment to California on HX4A-85687 AR-15/M16 Tactical Mount. This makes absolutely no sense to me. This is simply a piece of metal that mounts a scope to a AR-15 or FAB-10. You have also banned just about every AR15 accessory on page 48 and 49 of your Fall Shooters catalog. None of these items are banned by any California Law.

Unfortunately you have not stopped there on the restricted shipping. HX4A-71290 M1 Carbine Survival Parts Kit. This is simply the springs, safety, and screws for your M1 Carbine, restricted from being shipped to California! Don't forget you have also restricted shipping on HX4A-55369 M1 Carbine Bolt Tool. It makes no sense! Especially if you look on that same page 51 and see item HX4A-43517 M1 Carbine Folding Stock. For some odd reason you have decided that it is ok for me to change my IAI M1 Carbine to an assault wepaon by adding a folding stock to it. Hmmmm.

My whole point in brining this up is not to give you a hard time, but to ask you to rethink your shipping restrictions. I would like to order a couple hundred dollars worth of merchandice from you, but you state you won't ship it to me in California. None of the items I am ordering are prohibited by law in this state. In fact, most of the items you have restricted are accessories that are not even covered in any of the assault weapons ban. I come to expect insane laws and restrictions from the State of California, but I am disappointed to see fellow sportsman treat me like a criminal and restrict me from purchasing lawful items. We need to support each other in our fight for the 2nd Amendment and your haphazard restrictions actually support the anti-gun politicians in this state because you are afraid to ship lawful items to this state for no other reason than emotional fright.

I have posted a copy of this letter on a 2nd Amendment discussion board I frequent and you might want to follow its progress at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102189 . I hope that I can support your business soon and that you will choose to support us in California by not restricting your lawful items as the politicians hope to do, but to sell to us under full compliance with the law and as a solid supporter of the people's right to keep and bear arms.
***********************************************************
I would like to keep this thread in Legal and Political because this is a good point of discussion, how successful are the anti-gunners if they can scare merchants into avoiding selling lawful merchandice to honest citizens because of their complex gun laws? If I were a business, I would imagine I would want to simply look at the laws and continue to sell to who ever wants to send me money for lawful purchases as a means to tell the politicians that we will not be intimidated by you or our laws. What do you guys think?

 

[Pilgrim]

Try getting night vision devices to the PDRK from Sportsmans Guide.

Pilgrim

 

[ke6guj]

They just did the same thing to me, and others from the 1919a4 board, with regards to the MG42 ground tripods they had on sale. Nowhere on the webpage did it say CA restricted, but they cancelled the CA orders because they say they are prohibited in CA. Tripods aren't banned, yet.

However, others mentioned that they do ship the MG42 AA tripods to CA.

 

[Pilgrim]

I wrote to Sportsmans Guide about their ridiculous policy on night vision devices. The only restriction I could find on night vision in the PDRK was a penal code section prohibiting the use of night "sniper scopes" on firearms. The penal code section specifically addresses scopes with IR illuminators.

Sportsmans Guide's legal counsel apparently expanded that prohibition to include all night vision devices, even those not suitable to mounting on firearms.

I pointed out this excessive caution on the part of SG and they came back with "Tough poop, we're not selling to PDRK residents."

Pilgrim

 

[manwithoutahome]

Yet, you've got to agree that they have to CYA.

With all the stupid laws that states like CA put on the books, it's no wonder they refuse to ship to you.

If it were your butt on the line, would you ship? I didn't think so.

They are a company, this company has to ensure that it obeys the law and if the law is too "grey" to not ship at all.

If the law was clear and there was NO WAY that this company could be help in not obeying the law then they would ship.

The law is not clear and in most of the laws in that state, are not clear. It's not their problem, it's yours because you live in that state. The company head or the employees cannot vote in your state, yet you can. It's up to you to change the laws in your own state.

Yes, I'm not being PC, or on your side, or side with your rants. Why, because this is life and this is your state and this is the way of business. If you want a legal good that is available in most of these United States then change the damn law(s) in your state so there is no question whether it's legal or not.

Wayne

 

[molonlabe]

Here's mine.

Don't ship me any more catalogs. I will do no more business with your company. Your refusal to ship me 20 round AR magazines is simply wrong. I was able to purchase them at a Maryland gun show. They are not illegal in Maryland. Greater than 20 rounds are.

 

[sendec]

Why worry?

Plenty of other companies would be thrilled to take your money. They are'nt "banning" anything, just choosing to follow what is probably a less than great business plan. Nor are they treating you like a criminal. They are treating you like someone they dont want as a customer.

If Brownell's dont have it you dont need it, mostly.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

You might try calling and demanding to speak with Gary Olen personally. I don't know if he'll talk to you, but nothing short of that will have any effect. They are idiots.

A couple or three years ago I ordered one of their neat-o looking "desk rider" cross draw leather holsters for a 1911. It came, and it looked great --except for the minor glitch that there was absolutely no way my iofficer size Para would fit into it. I even took it to my gun shop thinking that perhaps the double stack grip might be at fault (even though that holster doesn't enclose the grip). We found that a genuine Colt 1911 wouldn't fit into it.

So I returned it, explained the problem, and asked for a replacement. The replacement arrived -- same problem. Plus, they wanted ME to pay the shipping on the replacement, even though it was their problem and their written policy clearly states that the buyer pays shipping on replacements only if it is due to the buyer's error.

I returned the second one special delivery, addressed directly to Gary Olen, with a lengthy letter explaining the problem. Despite the fact that I sent it to "Addressee only," the USPS accepted someone else's signature for the package so I have no way of knowing whether or not Gary ever saw my letter.

I am still waiting for a response.

 

[El Rojo]

Gee thanks manwithoutahome. I guess I have just failed to realize how easy it is to change things in California. I guess I never really understood how much of a conservative state we live in and I can just turn around the idiocy we have in Sacramento overnight. Wow, I sure am glad the Oregonians are here to turn us around and tell us the way it is. I had no clue all this time and boy am I glad someone who doesn't even live here or probably know half of what we are talking about was able to clear it up for me. Boy that made my day a lot better. Thanks.

The law is clear. The parts the Sportsman's Guide does not ship to California are in no way prohibited in California. What the problem might be is that some people outside of California have no compassion or respect for the gun owners here and so they are quick to condemn us because "we are not doing enough" to change our gun laws or because we are all a bunch of wackos I guess. I think Wayne's horrible attitude is probably a good indicator of what the real problem is.

Again, I figured I would give them a chance to rectify the situation and support us so I can support them. If they take the same attitude as manwithoutahome, then so be it, there are plenty of businesses out there who are competent enough to look at the laws and smart enough to take money from all 50 states.

Sendec, I know they aren't banning anything or actually implying I am a criminal, but by drawing these comparisons, I hope they realize their position is similar to the position of the anti-gunners. They are lumping us all into one big group and that group is bad. What they ought to be doing is proudly selling lawful items to anyone who wants them, not perpetuating the falsehood that everything is illegal here.

 

[Devonai]

Despite the fact that I sent it to "Addressee only," the USPS accepted someone else's signature for the package so I have no way of knowing whether or not Gary ever saw my letter.

As a third-party mail courier, I sign for certified letters a dozen times every day. Anyone can sign for mail with the consent of the addressee, and indeed my nifty rubber stamp says "authorized agent." Gary Olen probably authorized his entire staff to sign for mail on his behalf. There's no way you can guarantee that it will end up in his hands unless he insists on opening all of his own mail.

 

[El Rojo]

The Reply.

Dear Mr. Rojo,

Thank you for your e-mail.

We have placed certain restrictions, on certain items listed in our catalog and our web site.

Due to the various state, county and municipal laws that exist, we are not always able to comply with each individual guideline. Not all of the restrictions are based on laws on the books, but could be a company decision based on certain concerns. Things such as whether the state law suits pending involving gun owners, recent court decisions that may effect businesses like ours.

Finally it may be that the states laws are so vague that they could be interpreted unfavorably in the event a court action was ever involved, and finally as a public held company, we are obligated to safeguard our stockholder's investments.

I have contacted my products department and they informed me due to California law anything associated with an assault weapon is restricted to California.

We do apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you.

If you have any further questions or concerns please feel free to contact us.

Enjoy the Outdoors,
Kayla Bailey

Customer Service


Visit our Website at www.sportsmansguide.com


Please retain your Customer ID Number for order status and fast Express Internet Checkout.

Top sellers: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/section/section.asp?s=2283

SPG Email sign up: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/email/specials_form.asp

Buyers Club Sign-up: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/club/club_tour.asp

Customer Service Phone Number 1-800-888-5222

Customer Service Fax Number 1-651-552-5305

The Sportsman's Guide
411 Farwell Ave

So St Paul, MN 55075
***********************************************************
And here is my reply.

Thank you for your reply Kayla. Since you are unwilling to sell lawful products to me in the state of California, I no longer wish to do business with you. I will find another business who is not scared of the liberals in this state. Thank you and have a nice day.

Rojo
***********************************************************
This is no different than eBay not selling AW parts because AWs are illegal. Sorry Sportsman's Guide. As much as I like your catalog, if you don't support us in the PRK, there is no reason for me to support you. Anyone who lives in the PRK and agrees ought to write them a e-mail and tell them so. Now, I gotta go look for my colapsable stock and handguard rail elsewhere.

 

[mrapathy2000]

wont write sportsmans guide its theyre right to refuse sales.

you upset write to california reps and the governor

think it might be best if alot of companies started doing this with same respect to Law Enforcement Agencies and officers.

 

[El Rojo]

Mr. Apathy your name says it all. You are not from California, so don't bother, plus you seem to have no knowledge of what things are like out here. Thanks for chiming in on something that doesn't concern you. These non-Californians butting into our politics like they know what is going on grows extremely tiresome. Not to mention their refusal to sell only effects the law abiding citizen and not law enforcement. Again, if you don't know what you are talking about, don't bother posting.

 

[gigmike]

Don't support them. Don't we as sportsmen have enough road blocks put in our way? If they don't respect us then we shouldn't send them our money. Seems simple enough to me.

 

[Ellery Holt]

Wow, I sure am glad the Oregonians are here to turn us around and tell us the way it is.

Hey El Roho, we would LOVE to have you climb up out of that sewer you live in and join us up here. Then you can bitch about something innocuous instead -- like our rain perhaps.

Don't wanna be treated like a pariah, don't live in a pariah state.

 

[Ellery Holt]

Just to be sure you understand, I'm just funnin' with ya.

The invitation does stand, however.

 

[feedthehogs]

Why take it out on a company who's liability insurance company and lawyers set most of the rules, because people choose to live in a state that passes restrictive gun laws?

They are only protecting themselves from over zealous prosecutors looking to hang anyone that even remotely violates a law whether they be guilty or not.
Due to wide ranging interpretations of vague laws, being safe than sorry is prudent.

For the few who think their annual $30.00 in purchases will sway the companies mind, forget it.

There are no border guards prohibiting the leaving of California.

I have lived in 5 states and moved to one where I thought would best suit my needs.

If all the complaining that came out of California was put into political action, all the gun laws would be over turned.

BTW, I do follow California politics and have been to California enough to know I would never ever live there.

 

[El Rojo]

Why take it out on a company who's liability insurance company and lawyers set most of the rules, because people choose to live in a state that passes restrictive gun laws?

They are only protecting themselves from over zealous prosecutors looking to hang anyone that even remotely violates a law whether they be guilty or not.
Due to wide ranging interpretations of vague laws, being safe than sorry is prudent.

Name one case where a company sold someone a scope mount for an assault weapon and was sued? Again, if they are unwilling to support us, why support them? And this is a purely California thing. If you want to buy from them because you live some where else, go for it. Hey I like their catalog and they have some nice prices. I think Californians should send the message that if people are scared, because that is all it is is fear of something that has never happened, to sell us lawful products because some anti-gunner might sue, then I don't want to do business with them. This isn't a big boycott thread. They aren't taking away my 2nd Amendment rights. They chose not to do legitimate business with concerning assault weapons, I chose not to do any business with them.

If all the complaining that came out of California was put into political action, all the gun laws would be over turned.

And that is where I tire of people from out of state telling us what we are and are not doing. How do you know what we do and don't do? People still don't get it, we are surrounded by liberals in this state. I live in one of the most conservative counties in California. I have a conservative (not RINOs) assemblyman, I have a conservative sheriff that I have a CCW from, and I have a Democrat senator who has never voted against us on guns. Does that do us a bit of good? Nope. This state is full of liberals who outnumber any efforts we make. You see I have tried to make a difference. I have had my hopes get up there and think we were going to finally turn this state around because how could anyone vote for Gray Davis after the energy debacle. Oh, Bill Simon still loses. You don't understand California Politics. If you did, you would know we are hopelessly screwed for a while. The only chance we have going for us is Arnold. Sure he signed AB50, but lets see how many assembly seats we gain off of his coattails this November. People are so quick to make this an all or nothing war, it isn't. The anti-gunners know that. They know incrementalism is the way to acheive your goals. So when we make small strides the other way, we have something to be happy about.

There are the California Politics for you. You might live in a state where people all think and have brains, so if you want something done, you have enough people to get it done. If it doesn't get done, it is due to apathy. Don't mistake your state for ours. Even with a strong showing, we are still outnumbered. So do me a favor, quit acting like you know what is going on around here and spitting your venom at us like all we have to do is get people to vote or to quit "complaining" and just change things. This arrogant attitude that we don't know what we are doing or that we are a subspecies tires. All it does is make me want to stop trying to change this state so my federal representatives can show you the hell I live in. Don't think it is beyond happening. Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Boxer should be the only two names I mention that make people outside of California realize they have a lot to gain by supporting us, instead of tearing us down or telling us the obvious that we can move. We know that. I chose to fight instead of turning and tucking my tail. We need more Calfornians like that.

 

[Highland Ranger]

Lawyers runnign the world and making sure they have full employment.

Do a search on Sportsmansguide here, you'll find a number of stories concerning their bait and switch tactics and other poor business practices.

Interesting catalog, but I haven't ordered from them since the last time they screwed me.

This is just one more reason not to.

 

[TimRB]

"I have lived in 5 states and moved to one where I thought would best suit my needs."

Well, duh.

Do you think there is no valid reason to live in California? The point brought up by the OP was that Sportsman's Guide refuses to sell things to Californians that are clearly legal and can be purchased here or through the mail from any number of other vendors. I just received a Sportsman's Guide catalog in the mail, and came to the same conclusion myself.

People who suggest "Well, just move!" aren't helping much. That said, El Rojo, why don't you and I get together and take a road trip up to Sacramento. I'm sure that between the two of us we can simply explain the situation to our legislators and turn this thing around in a couple of hours.

Tim

 

[noonanda]

Like the commercial says "if people could do everything, we wouldn't need AARP. If all it took was to walk into my senators office explain the problem and tell them to fix it, life would be simple.
As a former California resident and most likely soon to return (Im hoping to get stationed back at Camp Pendleton) I feel all californian's pain.
I also dread going back in some ways due to the BS that is caused by the different california laws and companies not wanting to risk their butts to frivilous lawsuits.
I do understand where these companies are coming from, but It does not make it right. If all shooters and hunters supported a boycott of the sportsmans guide due to their california policy, the sportsmans guide would probably be forced to change or rethink their policy.
But unfortunately we probably couldnt get everyone involved unless we could get some of the big wigs like the NRA to broadcast the situation.
I would boycott the sportsmans guide if I thought that it would make a difference, so If anyone could get something rolling like this sign me up. We(all gun owners from all 50 states) need work together instead of fighting about the problem.

 

[DnPRK]

My trash can is between my mailbox and house. All Sportsman's Guide fliers never make it to my front door.

 

[jnojr]

I can't blame SG for not wanting to subject themselves to the whim of an AG who'll be elected with the approval of the Bay Area liberals. If someone were to buy a bunch of "assault weapon" parts and then go on a killing spree, a San Francisco jury absolutely would hold the seller of the parts civilly liable, claiming that those parts increased the "deadliness" of the weapon, contributed to a "Rambo mentality", etc.

I think we're going to see more and more mail order and Internet stores refusing to deal with California. I think we're going to see fewer and fewer gun stores in California. And I think this is just the way the Socialists in Sacramento want it.

What can we do about it? I don't know. "Go out and vote for pro-gun candidates!" Yeah, right... there's a reason the wildly liberal arm of the Democratic party has enjoyed a clear-cut majority in the Assembly and Senate for years... gerrymandering. As long as they're the majority, they'll keep changing district boundaries to keep themselves in the majority. Common sense and reason won't work... we already know that from the hyperbolic laws they pass every year. And nobody here seems to be at all interested in supporting an RKBA amendment to the CA Constitution that would allow for legal challenges against nearly all of the stupid gun laws we have. Hell, most of you won't even bother to look at the web site, let alone volunteer. The NRA has pretty much written CA off... their efforts are better spent in so many other states beating back the beginning efforts towards gun control, not the last stages of it.

Bottom line... if you aren't willing to do anything about the problem, then stop complaining about it.

 

[jefnvk]

I look at it this way:

A California court found Bryco responsible for the kid being shot by an idiot babysitter. What would happen if someone bought parts for their AR or AK from Sportsmans Guide, and went on a killing spree? As stated before, I have no doubt that they would be held responsible.

 

[Kamicosmos]

Meanwhile, Barett is thinking about moving out of California due to the .50 ban. Serbu is selling recievers to Cali residents at a record pace due to the ban.

Californians elected Arnie to gov, and then complain about him.

I always enjoy the call to arms about something like boycotting a company simply because they wouldn't sell high cap mags at 12:01 am on the sunset date.

Yet, when it comes down to move out of Cali (boycott the state), or why would a business want to do business in Cali (support them to boycott california)....all of a sudden it's 'You must feel our pain and help us poor Californians out!'

I understand people have family and jobs and just up and moving is usually not a choice. I also understand that Cali is a state that is overrun with liberals, and even the most active political pro gun person will have 0% chance of changing anything.

Dunno what I'm really saying here, I guess if you don't like their shipping policies, don't buy from them.

(and get out of Malibu, Leubowski! )