my next bolt action: 30-06?

[MtnCreek]

are savages easier to work on and customize vs the other mentioned rifles?

Yep. Wheeler action wrench, go / no-go gauges and a homemade barrel vise made from 2x2 white oak and a bench vise is all you need. If you're starting with a stripped action, you don't even need the barrel vise.

 

[jason41987]

yeah, im shopping around for some actions now to see whats available.. any recommendations on some relatively inexpensive newly made stripped actions to build upon?

 

[MtnCreek]

Stripped actions may be a little hard to come by for a deal. Best bet may be a used, complete rifle. My last action was a new Rem 700 .243 Youth for $417 from Wally World. The used, stripped actions I was seeing were getting pretty close to $400 and I would have had to send check, wait for shipment...

 

[Reloadron]

are savages easier to work on and customize vs the other mentioned rifles?... how do you adjust the headspacing on them?.. my experience in building rifles is on AK rifles, where i simply press the barrel in further or out further to headspace before drilling the barrel pin hole.. havent worked on a bolt action yet, but its something i really want to get into

just went to midway to check prices on a barrel vice and an action wrench.. both tools i already knew id need for a custom build... hmm, yeah, this is the route id REALLY like to go if possible.. im currently looking around for actions, be them FN mauser actions, savages, or new actions

The Savage family of rifles can be viewed more as a shooting system where barrel changes with pre chambered barrels is quite easy. This video is a good overview. Basically with a closed bolt and a minimum Go Gauge installed in the chamber you screw the barrel down till it stops, then run the jam nut down and tighten it. Barrel manufacturers like Shilen Rifle Barrels make drop in barrels. When we say drop in, it doesn't get any simpler.

Note: I suggested using a good headspace gauge! There are some that will argue that a new factory case can be used. Any competent gunsmith will tell you to use a gauge. Take that for what it worth.

So with a pre chambered barrel a barrel change on a Savage is a quick and simple procedure. Now obviously you want to properly secure the action but no, an action wrench or barrel vise is not used. Additionally, the bolt face dimensions need to match the cartridge. They make wrenches just for working on Savage rifles.

Ron

 

[clutch]

another reason for me to go .30-06 is that i do intend on getting a garand, maybe even before this, and at some point a 1903 springfield, and i just cant imagine collecting either of these in any other caliber... but firesky is right, you can make a huge number of other cartridges based on 30-06 brass

A plus for the .30-06 is ammo is still available in most stores where I live.

A negative for me is if I had a long range bolt action in .30.-06 there is a possibility I might mix up a load for a bolt action that would ruin my Garand due to pressure curves and the op rod. So the Garand and the O3A3 are the only ought sixes I have and my precision bolt action is in .308 Winchester.

 

[jason41987]

i know all about headspacing, just thought on bolt actions you had to machine off part of the breach face to move the chamber further back until its headspaced because the barrels were torqued on, i didnt know savages had an alternative method for securing the barrel like that, thats quite interesting

would it be possible to convert their target action they sell seperately to take a magazine?

 

[jason41987]

im watching some youtube videos and apparently a lot has change since i last looked at putting bolt actions together... seems a lot of manufacturers now have barrel systems that are pretty simple to change with the basic tools and a set of gauges... so its really looking like im going to build this rifle

if barrels are this easy to change... if .300WSM does shorten barrel life does it honestly matter?.. and if its this easy to change barrels, why not eventually have a collection of barrels?.. looks like it takes but half an hour to make a swap

 

[Cee Zee]

I think you would have a lot of work in their target action and you'd be essentially doing all the development work that a factory does but hoping it comes out right on the first try. I'm betting it would be a whole lot easier just to buy an action capable of using a DBM or whatever. Those target actions cost more than a lot of rifles do. I wouldn't dream of doing that kind of experimenting on one. They work really well just like they are so I wouldn't be anxious to monkey with one. But if you have enough cash I'm sure anything is possible.

 

[jason41987]

didnt savage used to sell their normal actions for like $350?

i guess i could buy a new rifle... take the old barrel off, remove the stock, and sell them.. which would bring the total cost of just getting the action down to a reasonable level, then buy a barrel with the rifling, chamber, and profile i want, with the stock i want, and have a custom savage bolt action

im going to look at savage triggers some more, i really like those single set triggers that offer a safer trigger pull, but if you push forward on the trigger itself, it goes into a hair trigger mode.. i like this idea because it gives me greater safety if i do in fact hunt with it, but allows me the option of an incredibly light trigger pull before i take the shot

im going to try to find a heavier barrel contour, like a heavy varmint contour, but im not going bull barrel on it, thats just WAY too much weight.. and since i have decided to go with the savage, im probably going to get the choate tactical stock, or the bell and vertical comb medalist stock

 

[jason41987]

its my understanding the 110, 111, 112, 114, and 116 models all fit the same stocks, but differ in stock configurations and finishes.. so im trying to decide that if i decide to refinish it too, whether i should start with a blued or stainless model

studying the design more with the bolt handle and bolt heads being interchangable parts, i guess this is what id consider to be a truly modular bolt action rifle.. bolt heads are fairly cheap too so it looks like i could get a short action and really experiment with different cartridges at the cost of a not so expensive drop in barrel.. and even the bolt head allows me to decide if i want push feed or centerfeed... amazing, i never knew savages gave you this much control over your rifle... the more i read, the more im not only liking these, but really wanting one

the only thing id want that the savage doesnt offer, but offers more than enough benefits that have sold me on the savage, is that it appears to be a bolt mounted ejector, it would be nice to be able to slowly pull a bolt back so my brass doesnt go flying.. so i could just drop it off into a box

 

[jason41987]

a quick question, i noticed a barrel change on a remington rifle that used a collar that went over the threads of the barrel, barrel is threaded into the receiver over a headspacing gauge and then the collar is tightened against the receiver, why couldnt this system be used on other rifles as it seems to be specifically the barrel thats changed, receiver seems the same

 

[Reloadron]

Do you mean the Bergara Quick Barrel Assembly?

That system uses the same method made popular with the Savage rifles. As to how well it works and does it remain tight I haven't a clue as I never used it. At a glance it doesn't seem it would be hard to duplicate. Again, I haven't a clue as to how reliable it is.

This summer I have a short action Remington 700 action with a broken bolt. I originally built this rifle in 6mm PPC as a school project gun. Maybe it would be interesting to play around with the concept. I was thinking about reaming the barrel out to a 243 once I find another bolt. Thinking about a PTG bolt for 308 which would work fine.

I retire real soon so I won't have access to a machine shop but can likely find one to do the work.

Ron

 

[jason41987]

reloadron, thats exactly what im referring to, thought that was a remington 700 product, but i guess its not.. i wonder if this could be used on other actions... probably still going with a savage, but im curious for the possibility of future builds

 

[Reloadron]

Hi Jason

What much of this would come down to is given the right tools, like a machine shop and some machining skills there is quite a bit that can be accomplished.

Worth noting is in the video using the barrel used there was still a need for a barrel vise and the Remington 700 action wrench. Also note that the wrench head had the recess for the lug. He begins to run the barrel in, then stops and places the lug in the recess cutout of the wrench head.

The Savage system is much easier requiring less tooling. Really slick. Years ago Savage made a fine rifle at a great price. Unfortunately because of the lower price many people seemed to think the rifles were "cheap" or "inferior" when in fact they weren't. Hell in a matter on minuets a barrel swap can be done on a Savage using a minimum or reasonably priced tools.

Ron

 

[jason41987]

well, it seems im probably going to get two actions.. one short, one long, and if barrels change that quick i could just buy different barrels with the appropriate headspacing gauges, and required bolt heads... but i want a short action first either .300WSM, .308 winchester, or 6.5 creedmoor, of which i havent really decided, but 6.5 creedmoor and .300WSM are pretty close..

and later on, id like something BIG, like .338 lapua, .300 weatherby magnum or .300RUM kind of big

 

[jason41987]

ya know what.. ive been studying these "improved" 6.5mm cartridges, studying ballistics and such.. can someone tell me the difference between the 6.5mm creedmoor and the 6.5x47mm lapua?

 

[firesky101]

ya know what.. ive been studying these "improved" 6.5mm cartridges, studying ballistics and such.. can someone tell me the difference between the 6.5mm creedmoor and the 6.5x47mm lapua?

The 6.5 creedmore has more case capacity, and I think the brass can be formed from .22-250. The 6.5x47 uses higher pressures to get the velocity it does, which is fine as long as you are using brass as strong as lapua intended. It may limit your choice in actions, but I would think any modern action could take the pressure just fine. Personally I would go with the creedmore over the lapua. You can also consider .260 rem.

 

[jason41987]

nah, teh 260 remington just seems to be the odd one out, it seems to be a bit old.. creedmoor is really starting to take off in the consumer market though, im starting to see that stuff spring up everywhere... 6.5x55mm in a short action essentially

 

[Reloadron]

nah, teh 260 remington just seems to be the odd one out, it seems to be a bit old.. creedmoor is really starting to take off in the consumer market though, im starting to see that stuff spring up everywhere... 6.5x55mm in a short action essentially

Old? Old you say of the 260 Remington? The 260 Remington was born around '97 but my take is Remington only standardized one of several older wildcat cartridges at the time. The 6.5mm Creedmoor is a centerfire rifle cartridge introduced by Hornady in 2007 making it a new comer to the game. Whether it is an improvement over the 260 Remington? I guess that remains to be seen, they are very similar.

The .308 Winchester was introduced in 1952 when I was every bit of 2 years old and a little young to appreciate what a cool cartridge it was. All good cartridges seem to in some ways be the offspring of some parent cartridge and in the case of the 308 rumor has it that it spawned from the 300 Savage developed around 1920.

The 308 was no slouch in producing offspring with cartridges such as the .243 Winchester, the .260 Remington (aka 6.5-08 A-Square), the 7 mm-08 Remington to name a few. You can neck it up, down and all around.

During the early 90s there were tons of Swedish Mauser rifles pouring into the US that back then, in excellent condition were selling for around $69 give or take. These rifles, or more in particular the 6.5 x 55 cartridge led me to an interest in the accuracy these cartridges delivered. My brother-in-law used one of those Mauser actions to build a nice match rifle as a NRA school project one summer. That rifle later got him a few matches. I was later focused on the 260 Remington, a cartridge based on a necked down 308 offering a short action. I never got very far as a promotion at work distanced me from shooting. My wife and I eventually sold the gun shop business we owned and most of my shooting was indoor range as time allowed. I saw great potential in the 260 Remington at the time.

If you have not done so already give this article a read: 6.5mm Shootout: .260 Remington vs. 6.5x47 Lapua vs. 6.5 Creedmoor. The author is a well accomplished shooter with won matches to support his thinking. While he does show a preference for the 260 Remington he is very open in his conclusions. What he gets across is for anyone already having one of the chamberings stick with what you have, for someone considering a new rifle in one of those chamberings just weigh your options carefully. I can agree with that.

Ron

 

[jason41987]

ive read that article.. and what i dont understand really is the 6.5x47mm lapua... the case is much shorter than it needs to be, i dont really see much more than 140 grain bullets for 6.5 and the creedmoor and 260 fire this bullet just fine, so a shorter case body doesnt make much sense to me

between the creedmoor and 260 remington, it seems the shoulder is rolled up further with a sharper angle on the creedmor, which gives it enough extra case capacity for an average of about 100fps.. but feel free to give your opinion on the 3, if i decided to get behind one of them, id have no problem making cartridges, but first impression is that the creedmoor offers the most velocity, and is better established in the consumer market being able to find more ammo for it than the other two

 

[Reloadron]

My best guess and that is about it, a guess would be the 6.5×47mm Lapua was first a European developed cartridge unlike the 260 Remington or the 6.5 Creedmoor which spawned in the US.

The 6.5x47mm Lapua (or 6.5x47mm) was developed with a single reason in mind. They were looking to develop an extremely accurate 300 meter competition cartridge. Yes, it is shorter than its brethren but with a case length of 47mm the cartridge is a roughly 63,000 psi cartridge. That is quite a bit of chamber pressure pushing the lighter bullets in the 139 / 140 grain range. My guess, and only a guess would be that they wanted a chamber well suited for an accurate cartridge capable of high chamber pressure using a well suited powder (burn rate for pressure curve). The case volume gave them what they wanted. Having a greater case volume would have likely defeated their intent. That would be purely my guess.

OK, the 6.5x47mm Lapua was developed as a match rifle cartridge designed to offer peak performance at 300 yards. It was never marketed as or touted as a hunting cartridge.

The 260 Remington was actually designed more as a hunting cartridge and in the early years touted and marketed as such. In my little opinion Remington somewhat missed the boat on that note. Maybe they were busy focused on their 6mm BR, I don't know. It was only later that shooters began to see the merits of the cartridge for match shooting using better than hunting bullets. The 260 Remington being in the roughly 60,000 PSI family.

Something else that you have hit upon several times figures into the game here. The shoulder angles. A steeper shoulder angle for any given case will obviously increase case capacity allowing for more powder and increased velocity but do we reach a point of diminishing returns? In some cases you realize a few hundred feet per second more velocity but does it matter? How far or hard do we want to push the pressure curve?

The 6.5x47mm lapua has a 30 degree shoulder, the 260 Remington 40 degrees and the 6.5 Creedmoore comes in at 30 degrees.

The 6.5 Creedmoor could be described as a .260 Rem. modified with a 0.11" shorter case, a sharper 30-degree shoulder, and less body taper. Full case capacity of the Creedmoor is 52.1 grs. of water, compared to 54.4 grs. for the .260 Rem. (both measurements taken using new, unfired cases).

The above quote was taken from here.

Note the 6.5 Creedmoor was developed as a target cartridge and not a hunting cartridge. So two of the three cartridges were developed primarily as target cartridges with only the Remington 260 developed to aim at the hunting audience. That is not to say any of the three would not serve well in either capacity because they have.

between the creedmoor and 260 remington, it seems the shoulder is rolled up further with a sharper angle on the creedmor, which gives it enough extra case capacity for an average of about 100fps.. but feel free to give your opinion on the 3, if i decided to get behind one of them, id have no problem making cartridges, but first impression is that the creedmoor offers the most velocity, and is better established in the consumer market being able to find more ammo for it than the other two

I would agree with that to a point. I see brass and components just about equally available. Keep in mind that the 6.5 Creedmoor was based on an improved version of the 260 Remington. Bitch of a choice huh? Today? I would try the Creedmoor simply considering the cartridge wasn't around when I had my 6.5mm phase in life.

Ron

 

[Kachok]

I have been in my 6.5mm "phase" for 25 years now, fantastic highly versatile bore. I beg to differ the 100fps difference in the Creedmore and 260, if you got 30 fps difference between the two at full potential in identical barrels I would be shocked. Of the two I like the Creedmore, little less powder, near identical performance, 30 degree shoulder to minimize case stretching and improved barrel life. Only advantage the 260 has is possibly a few extra fps at full stroke, and it's slighter shoulder works better in auto loaders. That said I am not trading my 6.5x55 for either of them anytime soon

 

[USSR]

Jason,

Have been following your thread, and I am curious as to how old you are?

Don

 

[jason41987]

im 28, why do you ask?

currently my only bolt action is my mosin nagant, so im basically at the point of asking myself, if you could only have one bolt action, which caliber would you want? to determine what i get and to be honest, the ammo shortages do make me lean towards more conventionally available cartridges for the fact i can easily stock up on brass for future use..

so the .308 winchester is the front-runner right now, im going to place the further limitations on my decision that the cartridge has to be able to be made from .308 brass in a pinch if needed, and with that would have to use the same bolt face

(thinking out loud)
whichever cartridge i decide, id like to be able to get fully behind, and this includes getting some semi automatics chambered for it, such as a custom AK build (ive built them before and im currently working on a .223/5.56mm AK build) or an FAL.. in either case, only a new barrel is necessary, but the shoulder angle on the .260 remington would probably feed more reliably in a semi automatic

the .260 remington would be easier to form from .308 based cartridges, feed more reliably in a semi, no performance loss over the creedmoor, has been around a few more years too..

ive narrowed my choice down to these calibers

.308 winchester
.260 remington
.338 federal

 

[USSR]

The reason I asked was, you seem to be "bouncing" all over the place regarding this, without any kind of firm grounding as far as a starting point or even where you want to end up. You've been given a lot of good advice, but it seems you keep changing the goal posts, and that keeps requiring further and different advice. I would step back, clearly define your criteria, and then do some research on your own before committing to anything. I say that having had 2 custom LR rifles built; one in .30-06 and one in 6.5x55. Just MHO.

Don

Custom built .30-06



Custom built 6.5x55