My step daughter was a victim....

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animator
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Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Antigun agendas don't exactly fly in my state, city or county.
Except when you go try to get a form 1 signature. Couldn't get anyone in collin co. to sign one for me. That was disappointing.
Which isn't necessarily "anti gun".........it's more like "anti litigation". Cities won't let their employees sign....so your stuck with elected officials such as Sheriff Box who reportedly will only sign for those people who he knows personally.
 
I did a speech in favor of less gun control in highschool. Got an "A" on it.

The common follow-up questions will be about keeping children safe and criminals getting guns. Mention that the majority if guns used in crimes are stolen or illegally obtained anyway. Child safety is the job of the parents. Kids can drink bleach and run with kitchen knives and end up just as dead. Are you going to ban them too? No. You're going to secure them properly and teach children about safety. An interesting fact, at the time (don't know if it still is true) was there were more deaths caused by heart problems and automobiles than guns the year before. Also, in Russia they had more murders committed than the US and even though they had very strict gun laws, criminals simply used knives and clubbing instruments to kill their victims.
 
I have been an adamant advocate of freedom since I became able to articulate opinions around the age of 12 or 13. The family I was raised in was very strongly individualist. I eventually migrated towards a more libertarian political philosophy while most of my family remains somewhat more on the economically liberal/social conservative end of the spectrum. I had many arguments in middle school, high school, and college about political issues. I think children are going to be exposed to ideas you agree with and disagree with no matter what, and the best thing to do is explain why you think the way you do and hope that they decide similarly.
 
Hey, NAVYLT, you did the right thing. That teacher will influence your step-daughter for a year; you'll influence her forever.

We're moderate liberals and all of my kids went through public schools without any apparent damage. Except for the older son, who's just not interested, they all know how to shoot and enjoy shooting. My younger daughter just turned 21 and attends a liberal university in Austin, one of the most liberal cities in Texas. She's considering getting her CHL.
 
Yeah, I don't think this was anything very strongly promoted in the school. I think it was the cumulation of years of subtle indoctrination. Neither of her parents are anti-s, but they were more of the keep guns for hunting type people.... until I showed up! :D
 
if you want to get rid of the anti ding bats running the public schools...

1. Get involved at the local level. Communicate regularly, and positively with your kids teachers and principals. Let them know where you stand and that your families legal activities must not be discriminated against.

2. Support charter schools... as these help brake the NEA dominated monopoly on public schools

3. support school vaucher legislation, and tip the scale back towards affordable private education.

4. oppose legislation hostile to home schoolers

5. if it comes right down to it, support repeal of collective bargaining rights for teachers

The problem (IMO) is not public education, but rather is the NEAs (teachers union) virtual total monopoly on all facets of public education.
 
amazing how this thread is still up.

For your information about the bible and liberals...

if 90% of america is christian, and there are equal numbers of liberals and concervatives....if all 10% of non christians where liberals, more then 50% of liberals still are christian. Use your brain.
 
if you want to get rid of the anti dingbats running the public schools...

1. Get involved at the local level. Communicate regularly, and positively, with your kids' teachers and principals. Let them know where you stand and that your family's legal activities must not be discriminated against.

Good answer. Becoming involved with your children's education is not only important, it's one of a good parent's responsibilities.

2. Support charter schools as these help break the NEA-dominated monopoly on public schools.

Charter schools don't have a track record that indicates they're a miracle cure for the problems in education.

3. Support school voucher legislation, and tip the scale back towards affordable private education.

Swell idea! How? Public schools across the nation are having to lay off teachers and cut or curtail programs because governments are strapped for cash. Where is the money for these vouchers coming from? How are you going to persuade private schools to become more affordable? And why would they, if they could? Or are we going back to the same magic well we went to for the school voucher money? Private schools can provide the quality of education that they do because they don't have to take every student who shows up at registration.

4. Oppose legislation hostile to home schoolers.

Haven't heard of any legislation hostile to home schoolers but I agree home schooling is every parent's right.

5. If it comes right down to it, support repeal of collective bargaining rights for teachers

So the answer is to take away their rights? Interesting concept - for an American concerned about his own.

The problem (IMO) is not public education, but rather it is the NEA's (teachers union) virtual total monopoly on all facets of public education.

Not really. The NEA has what power it has because it was given to them by all the parents who see school as free day care; who abdicated their parental responsibilities and put it on teachers to inculcate the values and beliefs that should be learned at home. That's one of the biggest complaints teachers have: they can't teach what they were hired to teach because over years of neglect, they have all this other garbage to deal with.

The NEA can issue all the anti-gun baloney it wants; as we've seen in just this thread, it doesn't mean every teacher or school administrator falls in lock-step with it and the best way to fight those that do is to provide them with students who can challenge their dogma because their parents have taught them about the opposing viewpoint. Just as NAVYLT did.
 
Swell idea! How? Public schools across the nation are having to lay off teachers and cut or curtail programs because governments are strapped for cash.
And yet schools get more $ per student than ever...and are not turning out a better product. More funding clearly does not equal a more educated student.


So the answer is to take away their rights? Interesting concept - for an American concerned about his own.
I believe collective barganing "rights" are just contractually negotiated terms. These "rights" can be eliminated by ripping up a contract...and therefore aren't really "rights" as their name implies.
 
Um schools better be getting more money each year...correct me if I am wrong, there are more students each year. Population studies.

Or how about technology has increased, at increased costs? Come back with sense please.
 
Which isn't necessarily "anti gun".........it's more like "anti litigation". Cities won't let their employees sign....so your stuck with elected officials such as Sheriff Box who reportedly will only sign for those people who he knows personally.




That's what he said in some back-and-forth email correspondence. I offered to meet him and give him the chance to spend some time getting to know me, but never got a response. I'm in Dallas Co. now, and have pretty much written off ever getting a signature... lol. Trusts make for a good alternative... :)
 
Your problem isn't the schools.....it's the community you chose to live in. Teachers and schools are simply a reflection of their community values. Antigun agendas don't exactly fly in my state, city or county.

Exactly. The public middle school I went to required hunters ed. / gun safety classes for all 7th graders. My public high school had a trap team, which I joined. Pretty much any teacher would talk hunting with you. None of the officers who came to talk over the years were the slightest bit anti-gun. I was never told once that guns were bad or should be regulated more, in 13 years of public education.
 
And yet schools get more $ per student than ever...and are not turning out a better product. More funding clearly does not equal a more educated student.

Funny thing is, I have heard this argument for the majority of my 61 years. It's never as good as it was in the "goodle days" and it always costs more.

IMHO, it all comes down to how much money is really spent on instruction of the skills and knowledge needed and how much is spent on the latest "wonder curriculum" or new technology. And believe me, having spent some time in the wonderful world of educational technology, it's not all the NEA. You wouldn't believe the number of expensive consultants and soi-disant experts who get involved with this stuff. These guys sold a mess of pottage to governments, school boards and such that would choke a horse.

Furthermore, teachers are now "teaching to test." It seems like the entire focus of education is now tied to student performance on government-mandated tests. I am not sure what was wrong with the old benchmarks - you either passed the final or didn't - but we've tied teacher pay to those tests. Seems to me that untold generations of children learned just fine without them.

I believe collective barganing "rights" are just contractually negotiated terms. These "rights" can be eliminated by ripping up a contract...and therefore aren't really "rights" as their name implies.

Depends on the state. In most states, employees do have the right to organize and require collective bargaining. In some states, public employees, which may or may not include teachers, do not have the right to form a traditional labor union.

Unions are a favored punching bag these days but the reality is that they have done an awful lot of good, especially for hourly workers. You might be surprised at the number of conditions we now take for granted, like a 40-hour work week and overtime, that came about because of unions. ON the other hand, they have been shooting themselves in the foot for quite a while, especially the more militant unions like the NEA, UAW and Teamsters.
 
csbassplayer2003 said:
LOL. Not to get off topic but how on earth did that one go over? I can just imagine how that first conversation went...

We had been corresponding for months prior. I was in Iraq when we started emailing each other, so she was prepared for it. Never a problem from day one. A couple of her family members asked her about it after they met me and she just told them I believed in the 2nd amendment right to self-protection and everybody was OK with it from there on.
 
NavyLT
Even if she was just doing the work to get it done hopefully some of what you said sinks in and she starts to see how people can manipulate stats to push their case.
 
NavyLT
Even if she was just doing the work to get it done hopefully some of what you said sinks in and she starts to see how people can manipulate stats to push their case.

Yes, I agree. We all know teenagers have big eyes and ears and they take in a lot more than we would ever suspect.
 
I am a public school teacher. I never miss an opportunity to indoctrinate my students to a pro gun point of view. I notify them a week in advance of up-coming gun shows in our area. The school I teach in is pretty pro gun. We have about 1,000 students and are in a midwestern region of the country.
 
I apologize for continuing the off topic discussion, but this topic (public education spending) is incredibly important and there are some things I need to say.

Fed-Spend-Ach-Pct-Chg-Cato-Andrew-Coulson.jpg

This chart give a fairly good visual overview of the results of the US's education "investment" in the past 4 decades. Because it was created to highlight specifically the poor return on increased federal spending, it gives a somewhat inflated view of the increased spending. Specifically, during the same period total real spending per pupil (in 2008-2009 school year dollars) increased from 5,671 (1970-1971) to 12,922 (2007-2008, most current available), which is only a 128% increase. So, wild cat mccane is completely incorrect - spending is not increasing to match increases in the number of students. For each student government on average spends 128% more now than they did in 1970, adjusted for inflation. Don't take my word for it, the numbers are publicly available from the NCES here: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_190.asp (table 190, 2010 digest)

I agree with TexasBill that "teaching to the test" is a bad idea and makes for bad education. I think focusing on this too much misses the point, however. Test results are a metric, one metric, that can be used to evaluate the quality of the results of our education process. Other metrics include graduation rates, college attendance rates, lifetime earnings, economic growth, productivity increases, and myriad other things. Many of these are difficult to measure, have significant time delays between cause (education success or failure) and effect, but that does not mean we should not examine them. I think most people would agree that education in the US is struggling to maintain an advantage or keep up with education in other developed nations. Most often the response called for is to invest more money, but I propose that perhaps throwing more money at the issue is not going to solve the problem.

In almost every other sphere of life we allow people to freely engage in enterprise, and whether or not they produce things consumers like determines their success. In the 2 sectors where we have the most government involvement, education and health care, we have consistently increasing costs. Instead of adding government involvement, I think we should consider moving the other way, towards more of a free market system. You could still publicly fund K-12 education, and simply issue each parent a voucher for X amount for the education of their child for that year, and allow them to pick the school they send their kid to. This way, schools would have to compete with each other for business, crappy schools would go out of business, and schools would fire or train bad teachers since they would be unable to compete if they were burdened with bad teachers. Good teachers would also get rewarded for their performance, because otherwise competing schools would recruit them away with more money. We should not be trying to decide top down what works, whether the decision comes from politicians, education studies centers, or voters. Planned economies do not work. We should give parents control of their money and let them make the decisions that are best for their needs and their students. When you increase spending per student by 128% and have no gains to show for it, I think it is worth at least considering alternatives, even if they are radical :D
 
There was a time when students took guns to school to shoot supper on the way home sfter school. Spending for education merely means more administrators, and office equipment. The teachers and children see precious little of it.
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Rustedangel - I hate to argue on the side of schools, but the reading, math, and science scores are a very poor indicator of what is actually going on. Of course the general education scores will remain fairly constant over the years. Teenager don't change, and most will put in a minimal effort on gen. eds. What is important is the more elective courses.

I graduated in 2009 from a public highschool. While I was there, I took several computer courses, multiple engineering courses with 3D modeling equipment, upper level physics courses, and a collision repair course with state of the art tools and equipment.

All of these classes require a teacher with more training than average, and a significantly higher equipment investment than Gen. Eds.. However, none show up in standardized test scores. They did however help me prepare for engineering school more than the gen eds did.

None of this was available when my dad went to the same school in the 1980s.
 
rustedangel I apologize for continuing the off topic discussion, but this topic (public education spending) is incredibly important and there are some things I need to say.....
Nice graph. But it doesn't begin to tell the story of how Federal "education $$$" are spent. Two programs that receive much of their funding from those Federal dollars:

-free and reduced lunch
-special education

Prior to passage of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act precious little Federal dollars were allocated to special education. Guess what year IDEA was passed? 1990, right at the bottom of your graph. Federal $$$ have provided many of the services special needs student require (which in most cases mean low teacher:student ratios. As the numbers of students identified with special educational needs increased....so does the Fed $$$.

Unfortunately, too many parents are unable, unwilling or incapable of taking care of their childrens basic needs: food, clothing and shelter.......guess who is the one who gets to feed those children breakfast AND lunch? The school system. And the Feds help pay for it.

Bottom line? Statistics don't lie....but they don't tell the complete story either. Using "total dollars spent" vs "student acheivement" is misleading at best. I would love to see the stats on "general education instructional dollars" vs "student achievement"

I would bet that ZERO dollars were spent on firearms education other than the Eddie Eagle publications. I wonder how a firearms safety demo in every public school would go over? I think the Brady bunch would stroke out.
 
Dogtown Tom,

Prior to passage of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act precious little Federal dollars were allocated to special education. Guess what year IDEA was passed? 1990, right at the bottom of your graph. Federal $$$ have provided many of the services special needs student require (which in most cases mean low teacher:student ratios. As the numbers of students identified with special educational needs increased....so does the Fed $$$.

The truth of where the government spends money is very difficult to understand. I'm all for spending money for Special Ed, but in my local school district we have too many upper administrative people driving free cars and talking on district funded cell phones. :scrutiny:

I think that any government bureaucracy is unable to slow or stop it's growth. This must be done externally.

I think that we can all agree that public schools are currently spending more money with less results than they have in the past. Where we may differ though, are the reasons for this. I suspect that the break down of the family in our society can play a pretty important roll.
 
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