"My wife won't carry a gun, what about OC"

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mercop

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It seems to be one of the most common questions asked in the forums when it comes to self-defense. Usually something along the lines of “My wife doesn’t want to carry a gun, I want to get her OC, what is the best out there”.

This thinking places OC in your someone’s personal defense program in the same place that many carry a firearm. This can be a huge mistake. There are basically two reasons why women don’t want to carry firearm-
1)They don’t want to be bothered.
2)They really don’t want to hurt anyone.

Let’s look at number one, OC to be effective during a spontaneous attack situation has got to be pre-deployed. That means that it is not at the bottom of a pocket or purse. This takes constant effort and mindset to have it ready in the hand whenever in a danger area (anywhere outside the home).

Number two, use of OC without proper mindset can lead to even more violence, let me explain. Being light skinned and blue eyed OC tears me up. I have been sprayed with it in the line of duty dozens of times. Each and every time it made my eyes slam shut and my face burn. What it never did was take me out of the fight. If anything it make me fight harder. I just had to fight by touch. As we see time and time again in pistol classes people have a very bad tendency to stand still while shooting, this is even more so when deploying OC. What will your wife be able to do if the guy gets his hands on her?

Besides state and local laws there are lots of issues with the carry of OC. The first is that in today’s security climate they may be prohibited in courthouses, some forms of transportations and academic institutions. So depending on life style and environment you many not be allowed to carry your OC. Of course this changes for everyone, what percentage of your life will you need to leave your primary force option at home or in your vehicle? Then when you do carry it, will you have the presence of mind to pre-deploy it?
OC is good for two things, bridging and transitioning. Bridging is using a tool to move to remove yourself to a safe location or at least to a safer one. Transitioning is using a tool to get you to another tool. OC can be very effective when backed up by a firearm and quite possible save you from having to shoot someone. In police use of force OC is usually very low on the list right after verbal persuasion. Don’t use it as your primary force option. A guide for citizen use of force should look something like this-
Verbal commands
Impact tools (flashlights, pens, kubatons, stylus)
OC
Firearms/Edged Weapons

The impact tools that are mentioned can be carried in even the most prohibitive environments and can allow you to bridge or transition with little training as long as the mindset is correct. OC, firearms and knives can be added depending on lifestyle and environments.
 
OC spray is completely useless for self defence. I've seen people spray themselves in the face far to many times " testing " it. Won't be able to get it deployed under stress , not to mention the fact that its not a sure way to stop an attack. Also it does not work in high wind areas. (useless here in TX)
 
Oakland, CA used to have a summer event called "Festival by the Lake" (Lake Merritt)

I distinctly recall television coverage of somewhat unruly festival attendees being sprayed with OC by Oakland PD. Multiple streams were hitting them, upper body and face. The folks just kept on walking.

Some people just don't seem to notice the stuff.
 
As stated above, OC spray is a tool to be used in conjunction with other tools, or it is a tool to be used by a defensive-minded individual when it is not legal to carry said other tools. It is not a substitute for a gun for a person who does not have a defensive mindset. For example, my own mother will never carry a gun because she truly believes the terrible stereotype that "it will only be taken and used against her." I have news for you...if you believe that you cannot defend yourself with a gun you certainly won't believe in your ability to defend yourself with OC.

It is my personal opinion that most people who strike a compromise and carry less lethal tools in lieu of a gun will not be inclined to effectively employ either. They just carry the OC to stop your nagging.

--Stork
 
I carry OC, as well as a firearm. The firearm is for imminant threat of grave bodily harm. If someone puts me in that situation, I'm fully willing to use it.

The OC is for situations where I feel threatened, but drawing and/or firing on the threat would likely not go over well with the powers that be.

For example, the large numbers of dogs roaming around, many of them pit bulls or pit mixes. I've had several run up on me while walking my elderly Black Lab or riding my bike. Pulling out the gun and firing on one in a residential area is my last choice as police, judges, and residents may take a less than sympathetic eye and lead to trying to refute "He shot our loving family pet Fifi who would never hurt anyone. After all Fifi hasn't ever bit anyone before." Yeah, and I don't want to be Fifi's first.

Another example is aggressive vagrants. The town I lived in before Hurricane Ike was full of them. After several situations where they intentionally boxed me in or wouldn't take no for an answer, I started carrying the pepper spray. First demand for money gets a no, second request gets "Your making me feel threatened, back off", I never had to go further since most are well acquainted with pepper spray.

I guess I veiw pepper spray as a "gap" weapon. It fills the gaps between imminant fear of loss of life that demands deadly force and situations where the threat may not rise to that or can be diffused before it gets to that.

My wife tends to fall in the "don't want to think about it" catagory. As shuch, pepper spray or other weapons are likely to be at the bottom of her "bag of doom".
 
victorysong said:
OC spray is completely useless for self defence. I've seen people spray themselves in the face far to many times " testing " it. Won't be able to get it deployed under stress , not to mention the fact that its not a sure way to stop an attack. Also it does not work in high wind areas. (useless here in TX)
Click to expand...

Yes, compared to firing a gun into someone's face, it's less effective. I have sprayed people and been sprayed, it will shut some people down and others will only be in moderate pain.

I suggest you try a different brand if it isn't having the desired effect. Bodyguard LE, Capstun, Punch, etc will slam your eyes shut tight. Try foam or stream for windy areas.

It isn't an "end all", it's a tool designed to even the odds and achieve pain compliance. It will likely buy you time to make a hasty retreat in a CC event
 
I disagree, are you familiar with Hicks Law? Better to have one response for 100 situations than 100 responses for 100 situations.

For those of you who CC, do you carry your OC spray in your strong or weakhand?
 
Pepper spray is a tool best used to create an opportunity for escape, not floor your attacker. Even if it only creates a mere distraction, mission accomplished, get away!
 
OC is great for taking the belligerence out of nasty drunks and the punk out of teenagers. Terrible for stopping someone intent on ending your life or raping you.
 
eyes, but cannot see

A third reason:

Arrogance; called pride.

What I mean is this. They have assumed a superior ethical stance that is better than "thou," -sort of like the Hindu philosophy of not hurting anything; and are so certain in their assumption, that they will run the risk of their own injury or death. (Which risk they smugly believe to be small).
That is where the cynicism you are experiencing comes from.

This pride of assumption is similar to the one taken by the PETA folk, or the dozens of other groups who aspouse todays' social causes.

And the difficulty you face in getting them to use rationale in their decisions is the same difficulty we wrestle with here on THR against the gun confiscation druids. Pride is a blinding malady.
 
There have been reports in the news lately about people getting attacked by large groups. Something that creates a cloud (I'm not sure which, if any, OC sprays create a cloud) could be better than a firearm, because it could hit everyone in the group at once, and against a very large group I wouldn't want to use a firearm for fear it would get taken from me, and I'd get shot.
 
Keep in mind I "are" old ...

One cannot change people, places and things; the only thing one can change is how they deal with life on life's terms.
Acceptance is the key.

The reality is, most folks will not do something until they reach a bottom and their butt won't bounce anymore.
Another reality is, sometimes an event to another is the "bottom" needed in order for one to change themselves.

Another reality is, some folks are "dependent" or "submissive" if you will. Hard to explain still they are shaped by how raised, religion, culture, and other "input".

i.e. A lady may have no problems with guns in the house, she may even go to the range with a husband, fiance', boyfriend, dad, uncle, grandpa...

How to say...the gist being, the "guys" do that gun stuff, and other "safety stuff" like pepper spray, not her.
Fine if other ladies she knows CCWs or uses pepper spray, or takes a martial arts class, or...

This lady is wired the way she is for whatever reason. She might not know why she is the way she is.

It is human nature to bow up and rebel if one is "told" "scolded", "lectured" , or "shamed" , and other things.

Hence the reason for some suggestions that do seem to assist with frustrations guys have about their gals.

-Back off.
Family is often not the best folks for lady to teach a lady to shoot. For sure not the best with a lady "wired" as she is.

You shove a gun, pepper spray, and knife in a gal's hands and say to her "you are going to do this", and I assure you she will NOT!
She is going to bow up, rebel, and have resentments.

This is as productive as lady "telling" a guy :
"You WILL put the toilet seat down!",
"You WILL squeeze the toothpaste from the bottom!"
"You WILL put the toilet paper on the dispenser with the paper on the outside!"

Guys, be honest, you left that seat up , squished the toothpaste in the center, and to heck with messing with getting a new roll, you just left the empty tube on the dispenser, didn't you?

Guys, be honest again if you will. The reason you chose to take your gal to "that" restaurant, is because your gal shared how a girlfriend's guy was so sweet in taking her there.
You asked her to help you pick out a tie, because she complimented a guy on his tie and he said "my wife picked this out for me".

WE humans are just wired as we are, and boys and girls are wired different.

Do you know why one gal decided to learn about firearms, get a CCW?
Because she and other gals , anti's, asked me and my party to walk them to their car after a live theatre performance, and I said No.

I actually suggested they flip a coin to see who would get raped , and whom would dial 911 on a cell phone.

These gals were scared, and after pleading with in -house security, whom said they were not supposed to leave the theatre ground, one armed security did.
Class mates of mine. Monday morning they were on campus, and not real happy with me.
One started out cursing , hitting me, and then fell into my arms sobbing.
"Teach me, please, this anti gun crap and submit BS will get me raped and dead."
That was her "bottom" and it took me being a cold hearted bastid.


Another time, I was working in the Main OR.
Denial is a strong thing.
A lady died on the table from injuries during a crime.
Her sister was in denial.
For those not familiar, when the patient dies, the body is cleaned up, made presentable for family and they are escorted in to see the body.
This lady was an organ donor, and we would do the harvest later in the wee hours.
I and another sorta made sure that sister got a long, hard look. We would not let her leave as "we all have to leave at the same time as we are in a sterile setting".
Another "bottom" was hit...

-Often time better results are obtained if the idea is the idea of a person.
I do not mean pull any of this snarky , sneaky, undercutting mind game crap either.

Wife: I fee a bit uneasy about showing real estate in that part of town dear.
Husband: I can understand that, what do you think you might could do , to not feel that way?

GF: Sweetie, I am working the 3p -11p shift now that I am going to college and I feel creepy leaving and driving the 30 min back home all by myself.
BF: Well, yeah, I can appreciate that, you have any ideas on what would make you feel not creepy?

-Let a person save face.
This goes along with letting solutions be their idea.

i.e. going out with another couple and some crime is shared.
Maybe a rash of home break ins, or car jackings, or worse, a serial rapist is running around.
Now gals interact with gals, and if gals feel creepy, they will say so.
Guys stuff things, Gals talk about things.

When the Blue Light Rapist were in various locations around the country, a lot of gals , chose not to be a victim.
Yes, they consulted other ladies, including LEOs.

They also asked Guys about things.
I know, I and mine were asked a lot.

And, there was a serious increase in ankle and cross draw holsters being bought/ obtained by ladies.
Sitting /driving and ankle, cross draw carry is comfortable and allows access.

Some ladies just did not like Mace, or Pepper spray.
They did not have a problem with a can of spray paint, or brake cleaner on the front seat though.
Nor carrying a small marine air horn.
Even using a "drug store" cane.

I am probably just antiquated and wrong though...
 
I have to agree with sm.

My wife won't shoot with me and has nothing to do with guns. I think she could use one if she had to, as I have shown her the basics.

I told her that everyone should at minimum know how to clear a gun, see if it's loaded, etc.
 
Strategy & Tactic

Applies to more than "Hardware".

WE keep harping about Software, not Hardware.
Not every "serious situation" is handled by "gun", "knife", "stick" ,"pepper spray", "martial art"...

I am dumb as a brick, don't ask me come here from sic'em about a lot of things, because I have no problem replying "I don't know".

Still, do they not teach (whatever the proper word is) in martial arts it is mindset, mental, and one is take steps not to get into a situation where one has to use the "Hardware". "Hardware" in the context of hands, feet, stick, or whatever the martial art is?

Heck I was raised to the same thing, in regard to "guns". The objective being, use Software, so I never had to go to Hardware (gun).
Private lessons and in real life, I have survived by using Software, and not going to Hardware.


Is there not something to the effect "one uses the opponent's energy against the opponent them self" ?

My point is, Guys all differ. Some have this over-protective thing, which is natural.
Gals have instincts guys don't have.

Human nature I guess to meet someone, be attracted to one another because of the qualities they have, and then turn around and try to change them.
*scratches head*

The reality is, based on my experiences and observations, just living as long as I have is:

-Wife does not care about gun, knife, pepper spray, stick...Until they become pregnant and that "mother instinct" kicks in big time!

-GF/Wife/Mom/ does not care about about gun, knife, pepper spray, stick...until they become Aunt/Wife/Mom/Grandma.

i.e. a 17 year old gal becomes an Aunt, and don't be surprised if she gets out herself, and starts caring about that niece or nephew. You don't have to say a word about her driving more mature, she will do so herself.
All the harping in the world about "young lady, slow down", did not do any good before, and she got that speeding ticket.
The niece or nephew in the vehicle will be the reason she drives more mature.

Ditto for a GF that becomes a wife. She now has someone else besides herself to think about.
Ditto for a Mom, she now has a Grand kid. Grand kids "kick in" another aspect of keeping kids safe, that differs from keeping their sons and daughters safe.
Hard to explain, still it happens.

Software often times is the best tool, and applies to getting a gal to consider means in which to keep safe.

Don't tell me you guys have never had a gal use Software on you, for a serious situation.
They do it all the time and guys never realize it, as whatever "it" is, is the guys idea.
The gal used software, and the guy chose to "change themselves", and it comes out being his idea.
 
oc

Mace makes a very good OC foam. Good in a breeze, car, indoors. This is NOT the Mace product that came out 30 some years ago. They also have a spray containing 10% military tear gas, but you may need to take a 3 hour class and get a permit to carry it.
 
OC...

In my experience...

We carry OC spray, or Olioresin Capsicum (spelling.. .its late, im tired!), which is derived from the Cyanne Pepper, as one of our force level tools on our Sam Brown's. I have deployed OC on numerous occasions over the years, and to be honest, Ive only been impressed by it's use once... when I was sprayed in training.

For whatever reason, introduce alcohol or drugs into a suspect/attacker, and OC's effectiveness is reduced drastically. In the few occasions when it does 'work' it is after the situation as been calmed and an arrest has been affected. The suspect's adrenal response has subsided, and he is drained and tired. At that point, he begins to winse and complain about the extreme pain to his face, eyes, nose, and mouth.

I have never seen it used to actually stop/reduce a threat in my years on the road. The pain is extreme, especially in a training environment. In real life, with adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, extreme intent: forget it. ...and I am referencing the LEO version 10-15% OC. Civilian versions are often significantly less. We (my department) has experimented with spray, stream, foam; one officer I know from a differeent department has even deployed the bear repellant, to no avail. It just isnt effective, Im sorry.

My girlfriend has asked me numerous times for a can, in which case, I just dont have the confidence in it to ward off an attacker for her.

If you do use it, remember this (or tell your wives...) small, controlled 1 second bursts to the eyes/nose/mouth area; especailly the eyes. Alot of people tend to drench the suspect in OC, which is less effective; the alcohol carrier takes longer to 'flash' evaporate leaving the OC crystals to penetrate the pores, eye mucus membranes, ect. Ideally, when you use short bursts, the alcohol all but evaporates in mid air, landing the OC crystals on the flesh.

IF you are looking for less than lethal for carry, invest in a taser. I can say I have never seen the Taser deployed correctly in which it did not incapacitate the recipiant.
 
My impression of tasers was that while they do incapacitate, that incapacitation only lasts for a short time after the tasing stops. A good choice for an officer since they only need them incapacitated until they can be secured with cuffs, a bad choice for civillians who need the incapacitation to last long enough to get out of Dodge.

I have no real world experience with Tasers, I"m just going on what I've researched. Perhaps some of our officers can tell me where I'm wrong (or right).
 
Tasers like OC are usually used by police in stand off situations and seldom during spontaneous attack situations since if you are being attacked and armed with a pistol you may want to draw that instead of the Taser. There are tons of Taser failure stories, both malfunctions and lack of effectiveness. Again, just like the OC, the Taser sucked and I don't ever want to be hit with it again. I would not want anyone in my life to carry the Taser without a lethal force option in addition to it.- George

There is nothing that can replace a firearms, that is why they are so damn popular.
 
My current wife is not anti gun...in fact she has 4 or 5 of her own. I purchased her some Fox spray and instructed her as to its use. In addition she and I are both R.A.D.S. instructors, so she is familiar with the statistics concerning threats.

Unfortunately when she leaves the house she leaves it all behind (except the R.A.D.S. knowledge). It is "too much trouble".

All of this is to say that you can only do what you can do.
 
We ditched the pepper spray in favor of the C2 taser. I watch my spouse spark test it from time to time. Now I hear she wants to fire my handgun. We will see how that goes.

I prefer a taser over pepper any day. Fry em if you got em. Just never, ever pull it on a LEO, it will get you dead.
 
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