'Natural' Browning?

[jamesbeat]

I have a bit of a project going on right now, an 1858 'Bulldog' with a ~3" barrel and bird's head butt.
I'm having a lot of fun with this gun and I'm enjoying the learning process.
So far I've shortened the barrel, fabricated a new front sight and dovetailed it into the barrel, reshaped the grip frame.
Currently I'm working on reshaping the grips, but soon I'll need to finish the gun.
I stripped the original blue with Naval Jelly, and I'm pretty sure that I want the gun to have an old patinated look to it.
I read something somewhere (I believe it was MEC's superlative book) that it's possible to brown steel by coating it with salt water and putting it in a jar with damp rags.
Since browning is essentially rust this sounded logical, so I tried it out on the piece of barrel that I cut off (ie the same steel as the gun)
Unfortunately it didn't work as I'd hoped, the steel didn't turn brown, it just got some splotches of black.
I tried a few different things like altering the amount of salt, altering how damp/wet the rags were, leaving the jar closed or open to the air etc, but all with the same result.

I'd like to avoid using a browning product unless it's absolutely necessary because they tend to leave more of a plumb brown finish that I don't care for.

Any ideas?

 

[Das Jaeger]

Old School Method

back in the Day , and still used by people who don't want to use Browning solutions , is Horse Piss . Very common product for the Cavalry man to come up with , in quantity ..Truth , no teazin here . Proper metal cleaning and pollish first , no fingerprints , make a hanger for the metal , find damp humid area to let rust naturally till you like the effect , then nutralize .

Das Jaeger

 

[Chawbaccer]

The navy jelly gave the gun a phosphate coating, like parkerizing. You will need to polish it off.

 

[jamesbeat]

Sorry I should have mentioned that I did indeed sand the metal first to get rid of the grey layer left by the Naval Jelly.

Humidity it is then (I don't have a horse...)
What should I do about the parts I don't want to rust? Is a thick coat of grease sufficient?

 

[Das Jaeger]

Sanding alone

is not enough to clean the metal , besides leaving trace amounts of aluminum oxide or Garnet or silicones the sand paper has on them into your metal , it is not clean after sanding . Acetone , denatured alcohol will work better . Even be careful of what rag or cloth you wipe it with prior to browning . Even TIDE or GAIN detergent will leave residues on your rags and will not be conducive to brownings or blueings . I use pure 100% cotton swabs . When you apply your blueing or brownings , and wipe one direction , ONCE , leave it alone , let it brown or blue . Card that application off or smooth and do it again , ONCE , one direction like painting , dont go back over what you have applied it ruins it .
You live in NY right ? Do you know how many horse people live in NY ? Lots
A trip to the countryside will probably net you lots of Urine , and some smiles form the Rancher as to why you want his Horse Urine . He may actually know already though . Any urine will work , but grain fed alfalfa base feed is the best , from a horse . A freind of mine GG uses Deer urine .
But like you've noted already , the Humidity is the key to keep the process alive . If your going with Salt , I would try Sea Salt , not Iodized treated crap .

What other parts are trying to keep from rusting on your gun ? Inside of barrel or cylinder I pressume ?
Plug um with wax , the grease is just gonna ooze and contaminate .

Jaeger

 

[cheatin charlie]

browning

I have used this to good effect. Clean the metal properly and then
apply cold blueing solution. After you have a good coat on the metal
clean well with solvent. Do not oil the the blueing and leave it in a
moist envirement. The cold blue will start to form a fine coat of rust.
Keep an eye on it and in 1 or 2 days you should have a nice coat of
fine rust. Kill the rust with oil and rub it thin to get the apperance
you want. Try it on a scrap piece of your barrel to see if that is what
you want.

 

[jamesbeat]

Das Jaeger, When I use cold blue I don't swab it on at all.
The best way I have found to get a good cold blue finish is to dissolve the cream in very hot water. I degrease the part to be blued, boil it in plain water first to get it nice and hot, then pop it into the bluing solution and agitate it gently.
This gives a much superior finish that actually resembles real bluing.

Cheatin Charlie, I think you're probably onto something there. Before I worked out the above technique, I never had any luck with bluing creams because no matter how well oiled I kept the part, it always turned brown eventually.
Doing this deliberately as you suggest may be just what I'm after.

I've also read that bluing a part and then dipping it into household bleach will make it rust nicely. I read about it on a knife forum, where the guy was using it to get a heavily pitted surface on his blades.
Maybe a shorter bleach bath would cause a nice thin film of rust instead of pitting...
I need to get some cold blue and do some experiments on the scrap pieces of steel I have left over.

 

[Das Jaeger]

Welp James

will have to try that sometime and see how it works , for me .
The only decent blueing I have ever seen done cold blued is NEVER really .
Like you said it is always prone to rust anyway . Hot blueing in a blueing salts bath is the only real decent blueing anywayz , but it takes lots of money and equiptment , oh and talent . The nicest I have seen done in your method kinda is MCB's Belgium style . Which is fine for small guns or parts , but long rifles and barrels and such , it still takes spendy dipping tanks and such to do it right . Chemicals aint cheap either .
I still think wispering sweet nothings to a horse for cooperation is the way to go if your looking for truly tradtional Browning
That 1858 Snubby might look kinda cool though Browned , make sure you post some pictures of it , and the horse .

Jaeger

 

[messerist]

I browned my GPRifle by cleaning it, degreasing and then placing it in a light box I made from plywood and a trouble light(regular incandescent bulb not flourescent) I hung the light in the box and suspended the barrel from a wire armature I fabricated. Plugged the muzzle with a rubber cork and used a birthday candle(wax...nod to Herr Jaeger!) to plug the hole for the touchhole liner. I swabbed "distilled" water on the clean barrel and left it in the light box for two weeks. Removed the barrel, steel wooled(fine)the rust off and repeated the process for 6 weeks. At the end I oiled the barrel and it took on a very nice light brown patina/browning. I seems involved I guess but I got good results. Good Luck!

 

[jamesbeat]

Messerist, your method sounds strikingly similar to a method I once read on how to rust blue guns, the only difference being that the part was boiled in distilled water in between rusting sessions to convert the brown rust to blue.
If I recall correctly, I think they suggested painting the metal with nitric acid to accelerate the process.
That's a bit more involved than I wanted, but I bet you got a beautiful finish.

Das Jaeger, I will post photos when I'm done. I nearly posted some work in progress ones, but I think I'm going to do a proper thread when it's all finished.

At the moment, aside from the finish, the only thing I'm still working on is the grips. I've seen some 'bird's head' conversions before that had disappointing grips because they had been simply smoothed over. From what I can gather, originals had a sort of ridged design that looks like it would fit the hand well and had a nice large back surface that would help spread recoil out. Until I am sure about what I'm doing I won't touch the wood...

You'll get your pictures soon enough though, don't worry

 

[StrawHat]

I have succesfully browned a barrel by throwing it into a manure pile while I worked on the wood stock. It came out nice and seems to be a hard finish. Not everyone has a manure pile but the idea of the humidity box is similar. Put the barrel in the box, swab with the solution of your choice, let it sit until you get a thin even coat of rust. Card the rust off and repeat until the finish is the color and depth you desire. I then nuetralize the solution with baking soda wash, dry it and give it a good coat of hard wax.

 

[higene]

Horse P$##

I've got my Halloween costume all done up. I'll dress up with a coonskin cap and old hippie fringe jacket. I'll sit at the corner where the pavement turns to gravel with a cardboard sign - 'Down on my luck - Can you spare a quart of horse pi$$?

Or maybe I should wear a three piece suit to garner country sympathy for the city boy.

Come on - this is a joke right - How you country boys poke fun at city folks.

Higene



PS What people Pi$$ ain't caustic enough?

 

[mykeal]

Actually, no, it's true. Simple economics.

Let's just say that the horse product was more plentiful and highly available, while the human version required more effort and produced smaller amounts for that effort.

 

[Das Jaeger]

Higene

Why is that so hard to believe ?
You ever smelt Horse urine , tis VIALE smellin costic stuff , will eat the paint off your VOLVO , you drive a Volvo dont ya ...
I want to see your Halloween pictures and your glass jar when tis full too !
First person that told me the story was a world famous BP Rfile Shooter , one of the best there was and a freind of VALS , I beleive him too , not only becasue its true but I read it somewhere too . .. I dont always beleive whats written either , but I do believe my freinds to be honest .

Jaeger

 

[higene]

Das

Harleys and Ford trucks.

(You know why British drink warm beer? Lucas makes refrigerators too!).

If Halloween doesn't work out maybe I can get some for Christmas. My brother in law bought his daughters two horses.

Higene

 

[Das Jaeger]

Oh No Higene

:14 PM
higene Harleys and Ford trucks.

(You know why British drink warm beer? Lucas makes refrigerators too!).

If Halloween doesn't work out maybe I can get some for Christmas. My brother in law bought his daughters two horses.

Higene
---------------------------

Higene ,

You think Harleys and Ford trucks are unreliable ? I hope you mean just the opposite ? Mine run great
Lucas , the LORD OF DARKENSS , thats a lie too , I have had no problem with my Lucas parts on my Norton . My Ignition system is Lucas/Rita , awsome stuff .
Seriously , I want pictures , your getting lame on posting your pics latey ...
So how is your little Dragon Slayer pistol comming along ?


Jaeger

 

[higene]

Natural Brown

That should have said 'Harleys and Ford trucks NOT Volvos'. The Volvos and Subarus are popular a little farther north - talk to Ratdog maybe he can get you a price.

Seriously, back to black powder. That little canoe gun has soul. It is a rip to shoot. What really has me going is that it has a Damascus twist barrel. After I scrubbed it up with steel wool I could see the marks faintly. I know - Warning we're all gonna die! - but really with 70 gr of Goex and nine or ten .32 balls it's fun to shoot. More powder than my Howdah and the recoil is Less! I can't believe how well mannered it is. I am interested in the horse piss or some such to try and brown up the tiger stripes in the twist barrel. I'm sure that it could be really beautiful if someone with talent laid hands on it.

The stock could also use some work. It has a serpent plate on the off side from the lock but it is on the top of the stock. It is not inletted. It would be nice to inlet the ends. The trigger guard is hand made and not inletted either. It reminds me of a '57 Chevy that looks great right at dusk or running at night and then you see it in the sunlight and it is almost a rat it's so rough but it still has the lines.

I gotta run, but I'll try to get some pix this week end. Let me know if anyone knows how to work with Damascus twist.

Higene

 

[Das Jaeger]

Higene

I am guessing whomever made it tore up a good ole Parker Hale barrel or an LC Smith and decided to make the Canoe gun out of it , AKA Dragon Slayer

Wouldn't be too hard for you to get your little happy butt in gear with your
X-Acto knives and get to inlayin those parts .

You'll bring out more color on the Demascus , blueing it though And is more proper lookin anywayz . If your ever in Cabelas up North here in Subaru land , go into the Gun Library there and you'll notice all the Demascus guns are in Blued not Browned .

Please do post some pics when you get around to it , wouldn't mind fallowing the progress from Sometimes but rarely Sunny Yalcot ....Umm and I want pics of all the Rats that have been slayed with the slayer too Whats left of them that is .

Jaeger

 

[jamesbeat]

We Brits don't drink warm beer, at least nobody under the age of 50 does.
The vast majority of British folk drink freezing cold imported lager
One stereotype I had never heard about until I moved here is that 'Briddish' people are supposed to have bad teeth! My teeth are perfect
It doesn't matter anyway because everyone seems to think I'm Australian for some reason
My aunt used to work for Lucas. They never used to make refrigerators (although they may have made parts for them I suppose), but they did used to treat their staff pretty good, and every year they used to have a christmas party for the employees and their families.
I went to it one year and all the kids received presents from the boss. I got a pair of toy Peacemakers, complete with holsters. They didn't leave my hips for months.
Nowadays of course, giving a pair of toy guns to a kid would have been a PR disaster, but this was probably around 1980 or so.