Need 9mm and 357 Mag seating dies that seat via ogive, not meplat

[JimGnitecki]

I am getting frustrated with both my Dillon 9mm and my Redding Competition 9mm bullet seating dies.

The Dillon die seems to seat via pushing on the meplat, which guarantees several thousandths of COAL variation, since everyone knows that the RIGHT way to seat for CONSISTENT COAL is to seat via pushing on the OGIVE, not the meplat, and preferably at a point not far from the ogive to bore diameter meeting point on the bullet (i.e. close to bore diameter but still on the ogive).

The Redding Competition die purports to correct that, by seating via the ogive AND by supposedly ensuring true concentricity via enclosing the bullet in a cylinder before seating. It also offers the VERY attractive feature of a micrometer adjustment, which makes it easy, fast, and accurate to try different amounts of bullet jump to the rifling.

However, the Redding Competition die, at least the one I got, and the ones that apaprently a LOT of other shooters have gotten, comes with 2 flaws:

1. The moving cylinder that encloses the bullet appears to get "stuck" inside the die. Mine would not even fall out when the micrometer and s;ring were removed! I had to PUSH it out using a wooden sawb stick from the bottom end of the die upward! I corrected that by polishing the cylinder and lubing it, so it now slides easier, but STILL needs a strong nudge to get it started moving. Also the cut ends of the spring in the die, at least on my die, are very rough, which does not help smoothness.

2. Yes, the Redding insert does TRY to grab the ogive, but at least with my bullet, the very commonly used Hornady 115g HAP, it does a crappy job, producing Base-to-Ogive readings on my Mitutoyo digital caliper that vary by over 10 thousandths!

I can see why too: When I take the Redding seating insert out of the die, and place a bullet by hand into it, it only accepts a portion of the ogive. Much of it is still protruding from the insert, I am able to "rock" it when it is supposedly seated inside the insert, which proves that it is catching the meplat before even reaching the ogive, rather than getting a solid grip on the ogive. So sure, the COAL is going to vary.

This is very frustrating because my 9mm SIG P210A shoots 3/4" 5-shot groups when I take the time and make the effort to maintain COAL within a couple of thousandths, so I want a die that can maintain a CONSISTENT COAL.

So . . .

1. WHICH die maker sells a bullet seating die that TRULY seats via contact with the OGIVE, versus the meplat?

2. And, does that die maker provide a micrometer adjustment?

I need BOTH 9mm and 357 Magnum seating dies, as I have a lever action .38 Special / 357 Magnum rifle that has demonstrated a preference for a short, consistent bullet jump for accuracy.

I'll settle for true seating via the ogive, but the micrometer adjustment would be attractive enough to me to justify spending the extra money.

Jim G

 

[EricBu]

The only suggestion I might have is to contact RCBS (info attached) and have them make you customer seating plugs, and specify exactly what you want. You'll also need to include a selection of the exact bullets you want to use. I've done this a few times, and they do a very good job, and the cost is reasonable.

 

[captain awesome]

Very interested in this. I have always thought that consistently seated concentric bullets at the right seating depth are the most important factor in accuracy after consistent powder charge weights. Others may disagree but darned if my ammunition didn't perform significantly better when I started making sure that was all correct and got rid of some dies that weren't doing their job in that regard.

I have heard some die makers will make custom seating stems based on bullets you send them. Never tried it my self though.

Edit: You beat me to the punch Eric!

 

[JimGnitecki]

The custom seating die idea is attractive, BUT since i live in Canada, and particularly during the current supply line issues, the timeframe turnaround time to get actual custom seating parts becomes very lengthy. It would be preferable to find "standard" dies for both 9mm and 357 Mag. But if I cannot, EricBU's suggestion may be the way I have to go.

Hopefully, someone who reads this thread might be able to point me to either a standard die product that has the right features, OR maybe a standard die product whose seating insert can be readily modified with basic tools at home to properly grab the bullet's ogive.

The Redding's insert probably cannot be modified at home, as the insert walls are already very thin at the end where the bullet enters the insert, and so the drill bit size required to drill out the inner surface that apparently grabs the meplat, without destroying the portion of the insert that grabs the ogive, would be "uncommon" ina home workshop: 9/32 inch. Having nothing to lose, I may try to find such a drill bit (Amazon, which has almost everything?), and try to drill out the offending metal inside the insert.

Jim G

 

[CQB45ACP]

I am getting frustrated with both my Dillon 9mm and my Redding Competition 9mm bullet seating dies.

The Dillon die seems to seat via pushing on the meplat, which guarantees several thousandths of COAL variation, since everyone knows that the RIGHT way to seat for CONSISTENT COAL is to seat via pushing on the OGIVE, not the meplat, and preferably at a point not far from the ogive to bore diameter meeting point on the bullet (i.e. close to bore diameter but still on the ogive).

The Redding Competition die purports to correct that, by seating via the ogive AND by supposedly ensuring true concentricity via enclosing the bullet in a cylinder before seating. It also offers the VERY attractive feature of a micrometer adjustment, which makes it easy, fast, and accurate to try different amounts of bullet jump to the rifling.

However, the Redding Competition die, at least the one I got, and the ones that apaprently a LOT of other shooters have gotten, comes with 2 flaws:

1. The moving cylinder that encloses the bullet appears to get "stuck" inside the die. Mine would not even fall out when the micrometer and s;ring were removed! I had to PUSH it out using a wooden sawb stick from the bottom end of the die upward! I corrected that by polishing the cylinder and lubing it, so it now slides easier, but STILL needs a strong nudge to get it started moving. Also the cut ends of the spring in the die, at least on my die, are very rough, which does not help smoothness.

2. Yes, the Redding insert does TRY to grab the ogive, but at least with my bullet, the very commonly used Hornady 115g HAP, it does a crappy job, producing Base-to-Ogive readings on my Mitutoyo digital caliper that vary by over 10 thousandths!

I can see why too: When I take the Redding seating insert out of the die, and place a bullet by hand into it, it only accepts a portion of the ogive. Much of it is still protruding from the insert, I am able to "rock" it when it is supposedly seated inside the insert, which proves that it is catching the meplat before even reaching the ogive, rather than getting a solid grip on the ogive. So sure, the COAL is going to vary.

This is very frustrating because my 9mm SIG P210A shoots 3/4" 5-shot groups when I take the time and make the effort to maintain COAL within a couple of thousandths, so I want a die that can maintain a CONSISTENT COAL.

So . . .

1. WHICH die maker sells a bullet seating die that TRULY seats via contact with the OGIVE, versus the meplat?

2. And, does that die maker provide a micrometer adjustment?

I need BOTH 9mm and 357 Magnum seating dies, as I have a lever action .38 Special / 357 Magnum rifle that has demonstrated a preference for a short, consistent bullet jump for accuracy.

I'll settle for true seating via the ogive, but the micrometer adjustment would be attractive enough to me to justify spending the extra money.

Jim G

Within a couple thousandths? That’s some precision. My 45acp Redding Competition gets close to that as does my Lee, but I don’t see a difference when shooting nor do I really know the variation. I’m not too bad shooting until my old hands get sore and tired but I couldn’t tell anyway. You’re cursed.

Anyway, how/what dies got you that degree of precision measurements before? Go back to them, no?

 

[garandsrus]

You should be able to drill out the center of the Dillon (or other) seating stem to whatever diameter you want. This will allow the edge of the seating die to press on the bullet to seat it. Use a little sandpaper to make the drilled edge a little less “sharp” so it doesn’t mark your bullet and you should be all set,

 

[JimGnitecki]

. . .
Anyway, how/what dies got you that degree of precision measurements before? Go back to them, no?

I did not have a previous die to do that. I did it the hard way: I hand picked cartridges from my reloaded bin and found enough of them that were within a couple thousandths of each other in COAL. The shooting test that followed showed that this selected batch did indeed improve group size. But hand sorting cartridges is not my idea of fun. Hence, the search for a better die.

With my 6.5 Creedmoor rifle, I get within a couple of thousandths COAL consistency as well, but I had to have a gunsmith modify the insert on the Redding die to get there. Until he did that for me, results were inconsistent, just like the 9mm. But, I moved, and have no nearby gunsmith available at the moment.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

You should be able to drill out the center of the Dillon (or other) seating stem to whatever diameter you want. This will allow the edge of the seating die to press on the bullet to seat it. Use a little sandpaper to make the drilled edge a little less “sharp” so it doesn’t mark your bullet and you should be all set,

THIS sounds promising. I still have that Dillon die somewhere. I'll examine it. I'll also need to figure out how to hold the insert absolutely vertical and centered on the drill press to ensure a square and centered edge to snag the bullet.

Jim G

 

[captain awesome]

THIS sounds promising. I still have that Dillon die somewhere. I'll examine it. I'll also need to figure out how to hold the insert absolutely vertical and centered on the drill press to ensure a square and centered edge to snag the bullet.

Jim G

If you know someone with a lathe that is a much better option. Precisely aligning something like that with a drill press is difficult as best.

 

[garandsrus]

The best way to align it with a drill press is to clamp a board to the drill press table and then bore a hole 1/2” deep or so with a drill that matches the seating insert diameter. Sorry, I don’t know what the diameter is. Then, without moving the drill press table, put in the drill you want for the insert. The hole in the board will accept the insert and the smaller drill bit will be centered on that hole.

If you have a V block, it will hold the insert vertical. You could. Make one out of wood also. As long as the part is not clamped to the table, the drill bit will self center since you are drilling into an existing hole. You do want to clamp it to whatever you are using to align the part so it doesn’t spin, just not to the table.

 

[JimGnitecki]

If you know someone with a lathe that is a much better option. Precisely aligning something like that with a drill press is difficult as best.

Yeah, I know. That's why I miss the local gunsmith I had.

I doon't yet know anyone in the new location who has a lathe. I may have to find a machine shop a d hope for the best.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

The best way to align it with a drill press is to clamp a board to the drill press table and then bore a hole 1/2” deep or so with a drill that matches the seating insert diameter. Sorry, I don’t know what the diameter is. Then, without moving the drill press table, put in the drill you want for the insert. The hole in the board will accept the insert and the smaller drill bit will be centered on that hole.

If you have a V block, it will hold the insert vertical. You could. Make one out of wood also. As long as the part is not clamped to the table, the drill bit will self center since you are drilling into an existing hole. You do want to clamp it to whatever you are using to align the part so it doesn’t spin, just not to the table.

Yes, I realize that trying to do this myself with none of the specialized tools is marginal. That's why I'd prefer a ready-to-use store-bought solution - IF it exists.

Jim G

 

[The Glockodile]

Thought there were people who "casted" their own epoxy "plugs" to suit their favorite bullets.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Thought there were people who "casted" their own epoxy "plugs" to suit their favorite bullets.

Yes, but that requires casting and moldingmaking equipment and skills, and I have neither.

Jim G

 

[The Glockodile]

Yes, but that requires casting and moldingmaking equipment and skills, and I have neither.

Jim G

Someone will chime in soon...

I'm under the impression that it's relatively simple to do.

Let's see what they say.

 

[Soonerpesek]

Someone will chime in soon...

Are you talking bout the JB weld guy....?
Iv'e seen that mentioned alot, but can't recall the member's name...

 

[The Glockodile]

Are you talking bout the JB weld guy....?
Iv'e seen that mentioned alot, but can't recall the member's name...

Might be, not sure

 

[CQB45ACP]

Might be, not sure

I am certainly one, but sure there are others.

I used it on my Redding competition die but for the opposite reason…I was getting rings on the 45ACP RN bullet ogive but not spectacular consistency. Had it been spectacular, I might not have done it.

I only use RN & SWC and it couldn’t be used for a SWC.

So, I put JB weld in the stem, let it set up for several hours maybe even overnight, then reassembled the die and pressed a cartridge into the die to form a perfect match.

(I modified a separate Redding die for SWC but that’s another story.)

So, am I the one?

 

[JimGnitecki]

I am certainly one, but sure there are others.

I used it on my Redding competition die but for the opposite reason…I was getting rings on the 45ACP RN bullet ogive but not spectacular consistency. Had it been spectacular, I might not have done it.

I only use RN & SWC and it couldn’t be used for a SWC.

So, I put JB weld in the stem, let it set up for several hours maybe even overnight, then reassembled the die and pressed a cartridge into the die to form a perfect match.

(I modified a separate Redding die for SWC but that’s another story.)

So, am I the one?

What is JB Weld? I ask because I have heard of it, but never used it. You say you let it set up, in the STEM, for several hours or even overnight, and only THEN reassembled the die and PRESSED a (finished) cartridge into the die to make a perfect mold (that would receive subsequent bullets and seat them perfectly)?

1. If the JB Weld sets up overnight, isn't it hard by the next day and impossibe to "mold" to the proper shape when the finsihed cartridge presses on it?

2. The extra JB Weld displaced by the finished cartridge has to go SOMEWHERE! Where does it go if the die insert is capped versus a passthrough "tunnel"??

Jim G

 

[CQB45ACP]

What is JB Weld? I ask because I have heard of it, but never used it. You say you let it set up, in the STEM, for several hours or even overnight, and only THEN reassembled the die and PRESSED a (finished) cartridge into the die to make a perfect mold (that would receive subsequent bullets and seat them perfectly)?

1. If the JB Weld sets up overnight, isn't it hard by the next day and impossibe to "mold" to the proper shape when the finsihed cartridge presses on it?

2. The extra JB Weld displaced by the finished cartridge has to go SOMEWHERE! Where does it go if the die insert is capped versus a passthrough "tunnel"??

Jim G

I’ll get back to you tomorrow when I have time to take picture and explain

 

[JimGnitecki]

I’ll get back to you tomorrow when I have time to take picture and explain

Ok!

Jim G

 

[LiveLife]

1. WHICH die maker sells a bullet seating die that TRULY seats via contact with the OGIVE, versus the meplat?

2. And, does that die maker provide a micrometer adjustment?

I need BOTH 9mm and 357 Magnum seating dies

Lee 9mm combo seat/taper crimp die seats via contact with the ogive - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/seater-die-for-rmr-124-mpr.842399/#post-10942913

to maintain COAL within a couple of thousandths, so I want a die that can maintain a CONSISTENT COAL

Within a couple thousandths? That’s some precision.

While it doesn't have etched "micrometer" adjustment, the knurled knob will produce .001" OAL variance with pre-resized mixed range brass and RMR in-house jacketed bullets that have very consistent nose/ogive profile (up to .002"-.003" variance with unresized mixed range brass) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...progressive-press.833604/page-2#post-10779806

BLAZER - 9mm RMR 115 gr FMJ:

• Regular: 1.115" - 1.118" = .003" OAL variance
• Pre-resized: 1.115" - 1.116' = .001' OAL variance

R-P - 9mm RMR 115 gr FMJ:

• Regular; 1.115' - 1.118" = .003" OAL variance
• Pre-resized: 1.115" - 1.116' = .001" OAL variance

WIN - 9mm RMR 115 gr FMJ:

• Regular: 1.114" - 1.117" = .003" OAL variance
• Pre-resized: 1.114" - 1.115" = .001" OAL variance

BLAZER - 9mm RMR 124 gr FP:

• Regular: 1.070" - 1.072" = .002" OAL variance
• Pre-resized: 1.069" - 1.070 = .001 OAL variance

 

[LiveLife]

I have always thought that consistently seated concentric bullets at the right seating depth are the most important factor in accuracy after consistent powder charge weights.

Actually sweating the details over "finished OAL" consistency down to .001" won't matter if bullet bumping the feed ramp will cause bullet setback and "chambered OAL" varies when the primer flash ignites the powder charge (No matter how consistent the charge weight. ).

So after I minimize "finished OAL" variance, I check neck tension/bullet setback by feeding dummy rounds (no powder, no primer) from the magazine and release the slide without riding it.

If there is bullet setback, I consider using thicker case wall brass. If there is significant bullet setback, I consider thicker case wall brass and/or slightly larger sized bullet (9mm bullets come sized .354", .355", .3555", .356") - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Actually sweating the details over "finished OAL" consistency down to .001" won't matter if bullet bumping the feed ramp will cause bullet setback and "chambered OAL" varies when the primer flash ignites the powder charge (No matter how consistent the charge weight. ).

So after I minimize "finished OAL" variance, I check neck tension/bullet setback by feeding dummy rounds (no powder, no primer) from the magazine and release the slide without riding it.

If there is bullet setback, I consider using thicker case wall brass. If there is significant bullet setback, I consider thicker case wall brass and/or slightly larger sized bullet (9mm bullets come sized .354", .355", .3555", .356") - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

Yup, this for sure but the press test is also a good idea. I use the kitchen scale to check for setback in self loading rounds up to 4lbs pressure. If I’m using jacketed bullets with no cannelure in revolver rounds I use the impact puller and a 2ft gravity deadblow fall onto a butcher block to test for recoil pull. I came to those methods through trial and error. I suggest each handloader find their own method and thresholds for pressure/recoil - but making some APD’s is always a good idea.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

What is JB Weld?

Metal infused epoxy. Drying time varies and there are a number of common agents that can act as a barrier between the object being molded and the epoxy surfaces. It can be thinned and injected using a hypodermic or turkey injector. Before 3-D printing using JB and a lost wax or porcelain mold is how some of us older guys made one-off parts.