rock jock
Member
Yep, Matt, that's him. I'll have an update tonight.
Need advice on a THR gun purchase that may have gone bad
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rock jock
Member
Lone Gunman, from the ATF website:
(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be
used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract
carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]
I got ahold the guy tonight by phone. This is after I sent an email to him yesterday demanding that he contact me immediately by email or phone. Conversation:
Me: "Did you get my emails?"
Steve Ray: "Uhhhh, yeah, but I've been out of town"
Me: "Your wife said you were in town all of last week."
Steve Ray: "Uhhhh, I been asleep. I can't remember no more."
Me: "When did you receive my money order?"
Steve Ray: "Uhhh, sometime last week. I don't remember when."
Me: "I asked you to send me a confirmation email and to respond in some way. Why didn't you?"
Steve Ray: "Uhhhh, I, uhhhh ain't been on the computer."
Me: "When am I going to get my gun"
Steve Ray: "I sent it out today."
Me: "Today??"
Steve Ray: "Uhhh, yeah, today."
We will see.
(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be
used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract
carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]
I got ahold the guy tonight by phone. This is after I sent an email to him yesterday demanding that he contact me immediately by email or phone. Conversation:
Me: "Did you get my emails?"
Steve Ray: "Uhhhh, yeah, but I've been out of town"
Me: "Your wife said you were in town all of last week."
Steve Ray: "Uhhhh, I been asleep. I can't remember no more."
Me: "When did you receive my money order?"
Steve Ray: "Uhhh, sometime last week. I don't remember when."
Me: "I asked you to send me a confirmation email and to respond in some way. Why didn't you?"
Steve Ray: "Uhhhh, I, uhhhh ain't been on the computer."
Me: "When am I going to get my gun"
Steve Ray: "I sent it out today."
Me: "Today??"
Steve Ray: "Uhhh, yeah, today."
We will see.
Lone_Gunman
Member
Thanks for the info, Rock Jock.
I did not know that.
I did not know that.
Greybeard
Member
Something tells me that one might be just a little on the warm side ...
FYI, mailing a pistol FTF within state is not legal. Mailing a long gun within state is.
http://www.nraila.org/media/misc/FederalFirearms.htm#Mailing of Concealable Firearms
http://www.nraila.org/media/misc/FederalFirearms.htm#Mailing of Concealable Firearms
Combat Magnum
Member
I second what "vodka7" wrote!
Redlg155
Member
Bummer.
I looked at the thread and noticed that there was some input there and that the seller said he had shipped, so hopefully all will be well.
I personally try to avoid any troubles by asking that the following rules be followed whenever I do a transaction here at THR. If it is a major sale I always contact via telephone and then send this in the Email.
1. The buyer will notify the seller when payment is sent via Email or phone. ( I always send with delivery confirmation.)
2. The seller will notify the buyer once the payment is recieved and the anticipated shipping date.
3. The seller will notify the buyer of the actual shipping date as well as providing tracking numbers. If the item is small and sent via USPS, the seller can provide a delivery confirmation number as proof of the item being sent...... ( In certain cases the seller may be asked to provide a bill of sale as well as identifying information. This is especially true with non FFL to FFL transfers. Dealers love it when a gun just "shows up" at their business without any paperwork included. )
4. The buyer will notify the seller when the item is recieved and the condition of the item. At this time any previously agreed upon inspection agreement starts.
I also try to provide some positive feedback for a good sale. I'm sure there are a lot of things folks will add, but this is my basic statement that I send before selling an item online.
Good Shooting
Red
I looked at the thread and noticed that there was some input there and that the seller said he had shipped, so hopefully all will be well.
I personally try to avoid any troubles by asking that the following rules be followed whenever I do a transaction here at THR. If it is a major sale I always contact via telephone and then send this in the Email.
1. The buyer will notify the seller when payment is sent via Email or phone. ( I always send with delivery confirmation.)
2. The seller will notify the buyer once the payment is recieved and the anticipated shipping date.
3. The seller will notify the buyer of the actual shipping date as well as providing tracking numbers. If the item is small and sent via USPS, the seller can provide a delivery confirmation number as proof of the item being sent...... ( In certain cases the seller may be asked to provide a bill of sale as well as identifying information. This is especially true with non FFL to FFL transfers. Dealers love it when a gun just "shows up" at their business without any paperwork included. )
4. The buyer will notify the seller when the item is recieved and the condition of the item. At this time any previously agreed upon inspection agreement starts.
I also try to provide some positive feedback for a good sale. I'm sure there are a lot of things folks will add, but this is my basic statement that I send before selling an item online.
Good Shooting
Red
rock jock
Member
I received the gun today. I do not yet know the condition of the gun since I have yet to open the package. Please refer to this thread to find out why:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101965
Redlg155,
I agree completely and have ALWAYS followed those rules. I have done lots of deals on TFL, THR, Glock Talk, AR-15.com, and AK-47.net Every single transaction in the past has gone smooth as silk. Not this one. In the future, I will be extremely careful who I deal with.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101965
Redlg155,
I agree completely and have ALWAYS followed those rules. I have done lots of deals on TFL, THR, Glock Talk, AR-15.com, and AK-47.net Every single transaction in the past has gone smooth as silk. Not this one. In the future, I will be extremely careful who I deal with.
Cacique500
Member
Mailed a pistol USPS for a FTF? EEK!
musher
Member
Darn,
posted my comment over in the forsale thread. try again...
I'd echo techbrute. Not much point in making a threat to turn the guy in on the forum. Just brings the level of discussion down I think.
I do understand your quandary though. The fellow commited a felony and involved you while doing it. I'm not sure what your legal exposure is on this. I can certainly understand where it might be the smartest thing to do just to turn the deal over to the authorities now that it's been aired in public.
If I were in your shoes, I think I might give a lawer familar with federal gun laws a jingle and pay them a c-note or two to tell me what I would be risking I kept the gun.
If you're exposed to felony prosecution as well, you've got a tough decision. Hard to fault covering your own (and your family's) hide given that the other fellow knowingly put you in this situation. On the other hand, dropping a dime for something like this on a fellow gun owner would be hard to do (even if he is exasperating). On the third hand felonies are forever.
If you're potentially in trouble, you might be able to work out a no-prosecution deal if you come forward together and surrender the gun.
"Really sorry, goofed up, won't happen again old chap."
It would be worth the lawyer fees and price of the gun not to worry about getting the door kicked in, I would think. Can't amount to much more than a few cases of ammo. Ok, a few cases of GOOD ammo, but way less than a felony defense.
musher
posted my comment over in the forsale thread. try again...
I'd echo techbrute. Not much point in making a threat to turn the guy in on the forum. Just brings the level of discussion down I think.
I do understand your quandary though. The fellow commited a felony and involved you while doing it. I'm not sure what your legal exposure is on this. I can certainly understand where it might be the smartest thing to do just to turn the deal over to the authorities now that it's been aired in public.
If I were in your shoes, I think I might give a lawer familar with federal gun laws a jingle and pay them a c-note or two to tell me what I would be risking I kept the gun.
If you're exposed to felony prosecution as well, you've got a tough decision. Hard to fault covering your own (and your family's) hide given that the other fellow knowingly put you in this situation. On the other hand, dropping a dime for something like this on a fellow gun owner would be hard to do (even if he is exasperating). On the third hand felonies are forever.
If you're potentially in trouble, you might be able to work out a no-prosecution deal if you come forward together and surrender the gun.
"Really sorry, goofed up, won't happen again old chap."
It would be worth the lawyer fees and price of the gun not to worry about getting the door kicked in, I would think. Can't amount to much more than a few cases of ammo. Ok, a few cases of GOOD ammo, but way less than a felony defense.
musher
BluesBear
member
A word to the wise...
ANYTIME you want to buy a gun or any item for that matter over the internet, and you have a doubt as to whether the seller actually has the item for sale or not, the simply ask for more photos of the item. But ask for a certain view to ensure that the seller isn't using the pics from a long ago sold item.
In the case of a revolver ask for a photo showing the back of the cylinder with the extractor star raised.
For any other pistol, rifleor shotgun ask for a shot with the action open showing the feed ramp/breech area.
Ask to see the gun with the grips off. Anything as long as it's not the standard shots commonly used.
An honest seller should not mind taking 1 or 2 extra photos to close the deal and ensure a happy customer.
In photos, I often use the daily newspaper as a background. that way you can prove you had the item after a certain day.
ANYTIME you want to buy a gun or any item for that matter over the internet, and you have a doubt as to whether the seller actually has the item for sale or not, the simply ask for more photos of the item. But ask for a certain view to ensure that the seller isn't using the pics from a long ago sold item.
In the case of a revolver ask for a photo showing the back of the cylinder with the extractor star raised.
For any other pistol, rifleor shotgun ask for a shot with the action open showing the feed ramp/breech area.
Ask to see the gun with the grips off. Anything as long as it's not the standard shots commonly used.
An honest seller should not mind taking 1 or 2 extra photos to close the deal and ensure a happy customer.
In photos, I often use the daily newspaper as a background. that way you can prove you had the item after a certain day.
twoblink
Member
I think no matter what happens, an email communication is in order..
I sold something on ebay, and then I had to make an emergancy trip to Taiwan at the time, and didn't come back for 3 weeks. I emailed the guy every week, apologizing (it wasn't like I wanted my grandfather to die!!) and he was pretty sympathetic about it.. So I think communication is the key.
"Did you get my MO?"
"No, not yet, I'll let you know when it gets here"
That would have smoothed like 99% of everything..
I sold something on ebay, and then I had to make an emergancy trip to Taiwan at the time, and didn't come back for 3 weeks. I emailed the guy every week, apologizing (it wasn't like I wanted my grandfather to die!!) and he was pretty sympathetic about it.. So I think communication is the key.
"Did you get my MO?"
"No, not yet, I'll let you know when it gets here"
That would have smoothed like 99% of everything..
gigmike
Member
Rockjock,
I'm sorry to hear about how you've been involved in a potential crime here. I too echo the need for you to contact an attorney familiar with gun laws. However keep in mind that all an atty will do is offer an opinion on how those laws affect you. I know attorneys whose view of the law is very skewed by their own biases and views. I guess what I'm saying is be careful who you rely on.
If I were in your shoes I might have a trusted attorney consult me on how to best take this directly to the powers that be. As far as "turning in" the guy who illegally shipped the gun; that would be my last concern. Your first concern is your standing with the law, your freedom and ability to be there for your family. His carelessness created this scenario, it's inevitable he'd be involved if there are any negative repurcussions.
Good luck to you.
I'm sorry to hear about how you've been involved in a potential crime here. I too echo the need for you to contact an attorney familiar with gun laws. However keep in mind that all an atty will do is offer an opinion on how those laws affect you. I know attorneys whose view of the law is very skewed by their own biases and views. I guess what I'm saying is be careful who you rely on.
If I were in your shoes I might have a trusted attorney consult me on how to best take this directly to the powers that be. As far as "turning in" the guy who illegally shipped the gun; that would be my last concern. Your first concern is your standing with the law, your freedom and ability to be there for your family. His carelessness created this scenario, it's inevitable he'd be involved if there are any negative repurcussions.
Good luck to you.
rock jock
Member
As I related in the For Sale Forum, I did nothing wrong or illegal here. He shipped in incorrectly and as it turns out, the box was inadvertantly tossed with the trash so it is a moot point now.
Kingcreek
Member
Dare I ask?
Did ya get a nice mod 19 and was it represented accurately?
(even if there were a couple rough spots in the transaction?)
IOW, Did it all work out OK in the end?
Did ya get a nice mod 19 and was it represented accurately?
(even if there were a couple rough spots in the transaction?)
IOW, Did it all work out OK in the end?
rock jock
Member
No, it was not represented accurately. The drag line is very apparent. It has not been abused, but it has been shot a good number of rounds. There is a small scratch on the left side, and in full lockup, there is quite a bit of wiggle. I would rate it as 90-95%, NOT the 99% that was advertised.
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