Need help with OCW for .300WM and .25-06. Keep tweaking or cut bait?

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wombat13

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Reloading experts, I need your wisdom. I’m working on new loads for two rifles (both are Ruger Hawkeyes) using the Optimal Charge Weight method. I know that OCW is about finding a sufficiently accurate load that will be insensitive to temperature and minor load variation. I like this idea, but I also want very good accuracy, if I can find it (for me 1 moa or better). This is my first attempt with OCW and the accuracy I’m getting is only okay. I think I should cut bait and move on to a new powder or bullet for each rifle and I’d appreciate your advice.

The first is for my .300WM (stainless, laminate stock). I’ve tried several powder/bullet combos in this rifle over the past 8 years, including RL22, Hybrid100V, and IMR4831 and Nosler BT, Nosler Accubond, Sierra Gameking, and Hornady SST (all in 180gr.) and Barnes TSX in 165 gr. The only combo I could get to consistently group 4 shots under 1” is the TSX with IMR 4831. I wanted to find a cheaper bullet with good accuracy for range practice and potentially hunting. The Nosler BT showed the second best accuracy in this rifle in previous testing, so I decided to try a new powder and use the optimal charge weight method.

So I reviewed Nosler’s data and decided to try IMR 4350. I loaded three rounds at a range of charge weights and 70.6 gr. looked most promising and loaded 10 at that weight. Every charge was weighed and bullets were seated at the maximum length that will feed from the magazine. The photo shows ten consecutive shots at 100 yards fired 3 minutes apart from a Lead Sled. Scope was Leupold VX-6 on 12x and the scope did not come loose.

IMG_5853.JPG

The first shot was near the right edge of the group and was a clean, cold bore. The next four shots are the four at the left edge within 1 in vertically. Then the shots started to move back to the right. The barrel never got more than warm, but is it possible that the POI walked from barrel heating? If not, should I try yet another powder or should I try a different bullet? The TSX is the only bullet <180 gr. that I’ve loaded. Should I try another 165 gr bullet? Or should I try a heavier bullet like a 200+? Hunting will be primarily northern whitetails, but we have a lot of black bears as well. I have the following powders that seem appropriate, in addition to those I’ve already tried: AA4350, IMR 7828SSC, IMR 7977, H4831.

Next is for my .25-06 (stainless, plastic stock). This is the first load I’ve tried in this rifle: 115 gr Nosler BT with IMR 4350 (which Nosler shows as the most accurate powder). The photo below shows my OCW test with six charge weights, ranging from 48.5 gr to 51.0 gr in 0.5 gr increments (every charge weighed) . Once again, these were fired at 100 yards from a Lead Sled 3 minutes apart. It looks like 50.5 gr (target 7) is the best charge weight for OCW, but I’m concerned that I won’t be happy with the accuracy that I’ll likely get. That three shot group measures 1.375” and will likely widen as I fire more shots.

IMG_5851.JPG

These rounds were loaded to 3.246”, just below book COL, because I recently purchased a Savage Axis II in .25-06 and want the rounds to be interchangeable in both for safety’s sake. I could try loading out farther by finding the distance to the lands in both rifles and loading inside the minimum. Or I could move on and try a different bullet or powder. I already have some 110 gr Accubonds loaded with IMR 4350 which I will try. This rifle is for my daughter who won’t be of legal age to hunt with it for three years, so I have time, but I find I have limited opportunities to get to the range and don’t want to waste time. Hunting use will also be northern whitetails and possible black bear. All the same powders seem to work here as in .300WM (one of the reasons I decided to buy the .25-06), so I’ve got the following powders that I have yet to try in .25-06: AA 4350, Hybrid 100V, IMR 4831, IMR 7977, IMR 7828 SSC.
 
All I can add is that my Remington 700 barrel gets very warm after 5 shots with 5 minute intervals. My shot from cold barrel is always off from subsequent shots. You didn’t mention if there was any cross wind?
 
All I can add is that my Remington 700 barrel gets very warm after 5 shots with 5 minute intervals. My shot from cold barrel is always off from subsequent shots. You didn’t mention if there was any cross wind?
VJ, the wind gusted up to maybe 10-15 mph, but it was mostly a tailwind coming from 6 to 8 o'clock. The wind certainly should not have caused a 2" horizontal spread in the .300WM shots, but could have had some minor impact on the .25-06 group sizes.
 
The last 300 WM I had liked the 180 gr SGK's and H1000 powder.
Every rifle of the same cartridge has a different COALTL (cartridge over all length to lands). Get one of the various 'comparitor' tools from Hornady etc (about $25-30) and find out what the longest length is for each bullet brand/weight. Example: One of my 25-06's has had over 3000 rounds through it in it's lifetime. Using the 110 Acubonds, I find COALTL = 3.45". I have learned from my experiences that the AB's like a bit of jump so I started my testing at .1 off of the lands or 3.35" COALTO (cartridge over all length to ogive[ogive is the point at which the bearing surface of the bullet first touches the lands]). I next will load a dummy cartridge (no powder or primer)to that length then check magazine space.(it fits in mine).
Then I go to loading some rounds to find the OCW.
As for the OCW method, if the range has a 200 yard target butt, try your shots again. Fire one fouling shot then wait your 3 minutes and fire one shot at each charge weight. Space your charge weights about .3 grains apart. What you are looking for is 3 or more shots on roughly the same horizontal plane. That's called a 'node'. Normally you'll have one at a lower charge and one at a higher charge. But, you could only have one node.
Try the middle of that node with a 3-5 shot group, waiting your three minutes between shots. That should be the optimum charge for that bullet, case, primer, powder combination. Change any one of those and you'll need to re-do your OCW test.
The SGK bullet is a fairly forgiving bullet in regards to the distance from the lands. Even so, it's not too common to find one load that will give great accuracy in two different rifles of the same cartridge.

Hope this is some help.
 
I had very good results with ELD-X, 200gr, IMR-4350, 68.0gr, LRP, 2964fps, ES 75fps, STD DEv 25fps, Sub MOA at 200 yds
 
Reloading experts, I need your wisdom. I’m working on new loads for two rifles (both are Ruger Hawkeyes) using the Optimal Charge Weight method. I know that OCW is about finding a sufficiently accurate load that will be insensitive to temperature and minor load variation. I like this idea, but I also want very good accuracy, if I can find it (for me 1 moa or better). This is my first attempt with OCW and the accuracy I’m getting is only okay. I think I should cut bait and move on to a new powder or bullet for each rifle and I’d appreciate your advice.

The first is for my .300WM (stainless, laminate stock). I’ve tried several powder/bullet combos in this rifle over the past 8 years, including RL22, Hybrid100V, and IMR4831 and Nosler BT, Nosler Accubond, Sierra Gameking, and Hornady SST (all in 180gr.) and Barnes TSX in 165 gr. The only combo I could get to consistently group 4 shots under 1” is the TSX with IMR 4831. I wanted to find a cheaper bullet with good accuracy for range practice and potentially hunting. The Nosler BT showed the second best accuracy in this rifle in previous testing, so I decided to try a new powder and use the optimal charge weight method.

So I reviewed Nosler’s data and decided to try IMR 4350. I loaded three rounds at a range of charge weights and 70.6 gr. looked most promising and loaded 10 at that weight. Every charge was weighed and bullets were seated at the maximum length that will feed from the magazine. The photo shows ten consecutive shots at 100 yards fired 3 minutes apart from a Lead Sled. Scope was Leupold VX-6 on 12x and the scope did not come loose.

View attachment 766942

The first shot was near the right edge of the group and was a clean, cold bore. The next four shots are the four at the left edge within 1 in vertically. Then the shots started to move back to the right. The barrel never got more than warm, but is it possible that the POI walked from barrel heating? If not, should I try yet another powder or should I try a different bullet? The TSX is the only bullet <180 gr. that I’ve loaded. Should I try another 165 gr bullet? Or should I try a heavier bullet like a 200+? Hunting will be primarily northern whitetails, but we have a lot of black bears as well. I have the following powders that seem appropriate, in addition to those I’ve already tried: AA4350, IMR 7828SSC, IMR 7977, H4831.

Next is for my .25-06 (stainless, plastic stock). This is the first load I’ve tried in this rifle: 115 gr Nosler BT with IMR 4350 (which Nosler shows as the most accurate powder). The photo below shows my OCW test with six charge weights, ranging from 48.5 gr to 51.0 gr in 0.5 gr increments (every charge weighed) . Once again, these were fired at 100 yards from a Lead Sled 3 minutes apart. It looks like 50.5 gr (target 7) is the best charge weight for OCW, but I’m concerned that I won’t be happy with the accuracy that I’ll likely get. That three shot group measures 1.375” and will likely widen as I fire more shots.

View attachment 766943

These rounds were loaded to 3.246”, just below book COL, because I recently purchased a Savage Axis II in .25-06 and want the rounds to be interchangeable in both for safety’s sake. I could try loading out farther by finding the distance to the lands in both rifles and loading inside the minimum. Or I could move on and try a different bullet or powder. I already have some 110 gr Accubonds loaded with IMR 4350 which I will try. This rifle is for my daughter who won’t be of legal age to hunt with it for three years, so I have time, but I find I have limited opportunities to get to the range and don’t want to waste time. Hunting use will also be northern whitetails and possible black bear. All the same powders seem to work here as in .300WM (one of the reasons I decided to buy the .25-06), so I’ve got the following powders that I have yet to try in .25-06: AA 4350, Hybrid 100V, IMR 4831, IMR 7977, IMR 7828 SSC.
OK, for black bears and whitetails, maximum accuracy at distances to 500 yds, along with respective lethality in the win mag, 180 gr is VERY heavy (talking elk class) a 150 is plenty sufficient if we keep the targets farther than 50 yds away in general. Now personally I run 180s on game at lots of distances but above 300 yds, I'm aiming at heavy bones. If you really want to scream accuracy, a 180 prohunter from Sierra over a full case of h1000 can't be beat. Imr4831 under a 150 prohunter will kill what you're looking at too, but up close, we're talking more violent shallow penetration.
Basically a flat base is what you're looking for and Sierras are nasty. Apply a similar theory to your -06.
 
The last 300 WM I had liked the 180 gr SGK's and H1000 powder.
Every rifle of the same cartridge has a different COALTL (cartridge over all length to lands). Get one of the various 'comparitor' tools from Hornady etc (about $25-30) and find out what the longest length is for each bullet brand/weight. Example: One of my 25-06's has had over 3000 rounds through it in it's lifetime. Using the 110 Acubonds, I find COALTL = 3.45". I have learned from my experiences that the AB's like a bit of jump so I started my testing at .1 off of the lands or 3.35" COALTO (cartridge over all length to ogive[ogive is the point at which the bearing surface of the bullet first touches the lands]). I next will load a dummy cartridge (no powder or primer)to that length then check magazine space.(it fits in mine).
Then I go to loading some rounds to find the OCW.
As for the OCW method, if the range has a 200 yard target butt, try your shots again. Fire one fouling shot then wait your 3 minutes and fire one shot at each charge weight. Space your charge weights about .3 grains apart. What you are looking for is 3 or more shots on roughly the same horizontal plane. That's called a 'node'. Normally you'll have one at a lower charge and one at a higher charge. But, you could only have one node.
Try the middle of that node with a 3-5 shot group, waiting your three minutes between shots. That should be the optimum charge for that bullet, case, primer, powder combination. Change any one of those and you'll need to re-do your OCW test.
The SGK bullet is a fairly forgiving bullet in regards to the distance from the lands. Even so, it's not too common to find one load that will give great accuracy in two different rifles of the same cartridge.

Hope this is some help.
Bbear, is this tool what you mean? https://www.midwayusa.com/product/570611/hornady-lock-n-load-overall-length-gauge-bolt-action Thanks for our help. I think I've found a node with each rifle/bullet/powder, but I'm not that happy with the resulting group size.
 
I had very good results with ELD-X, 200gr, IMR-4350, 68.0gr, LRP, 2964fps, ES 75fps, STD DEv 25fps, Sub MOA at 200 yds

I'll take a look at the ELD-X. I haven't tried them yet because I got really poor accuracy with the SST and I thought it might be because the SST has a secant ogive (as does the ELD-X). I've read that the secant ogive is more sensitive to seating depth. I'm limited on seating depth because the Ruger magazine is short.
 
OK, for black bears and whitetails, maximum accuracy at distances to 500 yds, along with respective lethality in the win mag, 180 gr is VERY heavy (talking elk class) a 150 is plenty sufficient if we keep the targets farther than 50 yds away in general. Now personally I run 180s on game at lots of distances but above 300 yds, I'm aiming at heavy bones. If you really want to scream accuracy, a 180 prohunter from Sierra over a full case of h1000 can't be beat. Imr4831 under a 150 prohunter will kill what you're looking at too, but up close, we're talking more violent shallow penetration.
Basically a flat base is what you're looking for and Sierras are nasty. Apply a similar theory to your -06.
Thanks for suggesting pro-hunters. Reviews look great and I've never tried a flat base bullet.
 
With that 180gr Nosler bullet I would try H1000 with a charge of between 78gr and 80gr. A friend uses N560 and claims it's the only powder for the 300 Win Mag. I must admit it does produce accurate ammo but he is also shooting a Sako rifle which is very accurate to begin with lol.

I don't load for the 25-06 so I can't help you there, sorry.
 
Both ArchAngelCD and Horsey3000 recommend H1000 so I'll try to buy some at my LGS. I'll also see if they have the Pro-Hunters. Looks like the 180 gr. Pro-hunters are back-order only at Midway and Cabelas.

Which of the following powders that I have on hand would you try next: AA4350, IMR 7977, or IMR 7828SSC? Also, what do you all think about Reloder 17? It looks like it produces good velocity across bullet weights for both .300WM and .25-06?
 
Both ArchAngelCD and Horsey3000 recommend H1000 so I'll try to buy some at my LGS. I'll also see if they have the Pro-Hunters. Looks like the 180 gr. Pro-hunters are back-order only at Midway and Cabelas.

Which of the following powders that I have on hand would you try next: AA4350, IMR 7977, or IMR 7828SSC? Also, what do you all think about Reloder 17? It looks like it produces good velocity across bullet weights for both .300WM and .25-06?
Mid south shooters supply.com for the Sierras, I've relied on the knowledge that I can get hodgdon anywhere for so long that I've never tried the reloder lineups but 17,19 and 22 are on the short list for other chamberings I'll be playing with soon.
 
Bbear, is this tool what you mean? https://www.midwayusa.com/product/570611/hornady-lock-n-load-overall-length-gauge-bolt-action Thanks for our help. I think I've found a node with each rifle/bullet/powder, but I'm not that happy with the resulting group size.
Wombat, that tool will work, they also make one that has a bend in it so you don't have to remove the bolt. Either will work for what you're wanting to do.

Something to remember, no rifle dislikes a bullet, they dislike the load. Before trying different bullets, try some different powders. I used H1000 in my 300 WM but it didn't shoot well at any load with the 110 AB's I use in my 25-06. 7977 works just great in both of them, but, there's a .75 gr difference in the loads with identical fps and accuracy.
 
Both ArchAngelCD and Horsey3000 recommend H1000 so I'll try to buy some at my LGS. I'll also see if they have the Pro-Hunters. Looks like the 180 gr. Pro-hunters are back-order only at Midway and Cabelas.

Which of the following powders that I have on hand would you try next: AA4350, IMR 7977, or IMR 7828SSC? Also, what do you all think about Reloder 17? It looks like it produces good velocity across bullet weights for both .300WM and .25-06?
Lyman lists IMR7828 and possible most accurate in the 25-06 and a 115gr bullet and should be fine in the 300 Win Mag but since you have the new IMR7977 I would try working up loads with it for both cartridges. You at least know it will be around for a while and it has a copper reducing agent in it.
 
Thanks to everyone for your advice. After thinking about all of your responses, I think I'm trying to do too much with these new loads and am now thinking about developing three loads for each rifle. Two hunting loads and a target load. The goal with the hunting loads would be to cover the range of game that are reasonable for the chambering with no regard to the cost of the bullets and getting adequate to excellent accuracy (absolutely no worse than 1.5 moa). The goal with the target load will be excellent accuracy (sub-moa) with bullet price a secondary consideration (but availability very important).

Fortunately, Sierra MatchKings get excellent reviews and are cheap compared to premium hunting bullets, so I'm going to start working on a load for each rifle with the MatchKings. I have a box of 100 gr. MatchKings for the .25-06 and am going to work on a reduced load with H4895 to get my daughter started with the rifle. I have a box of 168 gr MatchKings for the .300WM. So here are the questions (some of which I just posted in the Hunting forum as well):

1. What powders would you try for the 168 gr. MatchKing in the .300WM? I'd prefer to start with a powder I have. I have more than 8 lbs of IMR 4350 and IMR 4831. I have more than 4 lbs of AA 4350, H4831, and IMR 7828SSC. I also have Reloder 17, Reloder 22, Hybrid 100V, and IMR 7977. I'm going to try to find H1000 since a couple posters above recommended it.

2. I have one great hunting load for the .300WM: the 165 gr TSX over a heavy charge of IMR 4831. If you had to pick one other hunting bullet/weight for .300WM, with no regard to bullet cost, what would you choose? A couple posters above recommended 180 gr. Pro-Hunter, but I had specified I wanted a bullet cheaper than the TSX. Would you still recommend the 180 gr Pro-Hunter or something else?

3. If you had to choose two hunting bullets/weights for the .25-06, with no regard to bullet cost, what would you choose? Maybe a 115 gr TSX or Partition for large game and an 80 gr. TTSX or 85 gr ballistic tip for smaller game?

Thanks again for all of your help.
 
#1....It's a Ruger, standard rifle....this is not something with a blueprinted action, target trigger and a hand lapped, premium barrel ALL carefully built by a competent gunsmith. It's put together very quickly with the cheapest parts they can get by with.

If it shoots 1" count your blessings.
 
I have had real good results in the .25/06 with IMR 7828 & Nosler 110 grain Accubonds ...

The slow burning powders work great in the .25/06 ... it really depends on what your rifle likes as to what works best in it ...

I am currently working on Barnes TTS X 80 grain load for whitetail .... several folks I know have had good results with this bullet ...
 
For a second hunting bullet for the 300, I don't' think you could go wrong with the 180 gr Sierra Game King, Nosler Ballistic Tip or pretty much any of the cup and core hunting bullets out there.
For the 25-06 I like the 110 Accubond, but it's not a cheap bullet. For a practice bullet, you can look at the 115 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. Not too terribly expensive. And, if you keep an eye on Shooters Pro Shop, they'll have 2nd's and/or over-runs for sale real cheap.
 
How tight are the action screws?
"Gorilla" tight. Seriously, I follow Ruger's guidelines and make sure that the angled action screw is very tight. I had to change the screw on my .300WM from a slot to an allen head to get enough torque on it. Definitely made a difference.
 
"Gorilla" tight. Seriously, I follow Ruger's guidelines and make sure that the angled action screw is very tight. I had to change the screw on my .300WM from a slot to an allen head to get enough torque on it. Definitely made a difference.

It may not be an ammunition problem. Here is a thread I made a couple weeks ago about my brother in laws M77 I just did over for him

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/fixing-a-ruger-mk77-for-a-family-member.827673/
 
It may not be an ammunition problem. Here is a thread I made a couple weeks ago about my brother in laws M77 I just did over for him

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/fixing-a-ruger-mk77-for-a-family-member.827673/
Thanks. I saw your thread. I'm not ready to go that far, particularly since I couldn't do it myself. My Hawkeye (the .300wm), performed much better after I properly tightened the action screws and changed the trigger spring. I'll go the full monty on my daughter's rifle, if she ends up really getting into shooting and hunting.
 
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