Needing a better bullet

[BlondeBear63]

This past Saturday I shot a very nice buck. However, it was lost due to ineffective terminal ballistics. It was a good 80 yard shot to the boiler room, full broad side with leg forward. The bullet should have penetrated deeply, but didn't. I willing admit and accept when I don't do my part, but this was not the case and this magnificent animal got away as well as suffered. My disappointment is overshadowed by the anger I feel towards the misleading Hollow Point/Sabot combination being totted as the hyper-accurate and superior long range killing solution of the future.

My stainless 1:28 twist CVA Optima may not be the finest muzzle loader, but with its Simmons .44 Mag scope it can put 3 rounds in within 1" at 75 yards from a cold start. It is a darn fine gun and isn't going away. It fires 100 grains of Winchester Shotgun shell primer ignited Blackhorn 209. But it will no longer propel Hornady 250 grain SST-MLs.

The confusing CVA Optima V2 manual first states "All weights of PowerBelt bullets can be used in your CVA gun. PowerBelt bullets can weight as much as 444 grains. PowerBelt SKU: AC1573: http://shop.cva.com/Powerbelt/AC1573.asp

The manual further indicates "Do not use lead conical bullets weighing over 400 grains in your CVA gun." It also indicates "It is fully magnum capable. This means that you can use the "magnum" charge of 150 grains equivalent of pelletized blackpowder substitute."

I dug out my 370 grain Lyman .50 caliber Maxi bullets and everything changed. Bang went to BOOM, 1" to 3/4" accuracy, and recoil became more significant ! Now I need advice.

First, As I understand it, lube is not necessary for lead boolits when using the Blackhorn 209. Is this true?
Second, I should never have gone against my better judgment by using sabots instead of heavy lead bullets. Given what the CVA manual has indicated, what .50 caliber bullet options do I have? I sort of like the looks of the 395 grain Lyman 50 Caliber Plains bullet. Any thoughts?

I am really looking forward to all the input to help avoid a repeat of the past weekend.

Thanks in advance!

 

[swathdiver]

A patched round ball would've dropped that deer for you, .45 cal on up.

As for them newfangled wizbangs, I dunno.

 

[Panzerschwein]

A patched round ball would've dropped that deer for you, .45 cal on up.

As for them newfangled wizbangs, I dunno.

+1

Stick with what works. A patched round ball works very, very well and is far cheaper than magical wonder bullets for these magical inline space gun just-barely-a-muzzleloader things.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

While patched round ball works very well indeed (it's all that I use) the 1:28 rifling may not be a good match for a PRB if the rifling is on the shallow side.

You wrote:

I dug out my 370 grain Lyman .50 caliber Maxi bullets and everything changed. Bang went to BOOM, 1" to 3/4" accuracy, and recoil became more significant ! Now I need advice.

So your groups got better from what this says, AND you are under your manual's 400 grain limit?

I'd say no worries. I would use a lubed conical. We (big game hunters in North America) used lubed bullets up until the jacketed versions appeared...from black powder to the introduction of cordite. I don't know why anybody would not when using a lead bullet, and you may find a lead alloy works better for you.

A 100 grain load for a 100 yard shot is a bit stout. Consider, if you will, that the venerable .45-70 cartridge in its black powder loading was a 405 grain lead bullet, with 70 grains of BP behind it, and it was used to slay buffalo. Perhaps not as good as other BP cartridges used on Bison, BUT...you're going for whitetail not bison, right?

Your bullet is only 35 grains lighter than that loading, so with the same load of powder, terminal ballistics should not be a problem.

My .530 round ball at 225 grains launched with 70 grains of 3Fg, has gone through a whitetail, broadside at 110 yards....your .50 caliber 370 grain bullet launched with 70-80 grains should do the trick, and reduce that recoil that you noticed.

Of course, "doing our part" includes range time to determine how the rifle shoots with the new loads...so there will be some learning to be done. At the end though I think you will be pleased with the results.

LD

 

[swathdiver]

While patched round ball works very well indeed (it's all that I use) the 1:28 rifling may not be a good match for a PRB if the rifling is on the shallow side.

Absolutely true. My comment implies getting a real sidelock muzzleloader.

Another thing to note for this thread, that the charge should be reduced if one uses a PRB in a fast twist barrel.

Like you said, these inlines aren't really made to use them, no money in pure lead round balls unless they own stock in Lyman, Lee and Jo-Ann Fabrics!

 

[Arkansas Paul]

It was a good 80 yard shot to the boiler room, full broad side with leg forward. The bullet should have penetrated deeply, but didn't.

If you did not recover the deer, how do you know for certain your shot landed in the boiler room?

Also, how do you know that inadequate penetration was the problem if you did not recover the animal to observe this first hand?

 

[wleggart]

I noticed one other fact: shot gun primers. It is my experience in my 1:28 twist muzzle loader that the shotgun primer tends to give me very inaccurate loading while the 209 muzzloader primers give me very consistant ignition and group. If you hit that deer in the 10" kill area he is dead, and you did not find him.

 

[dubbleA]

Quote:
It was a good 80 yard shot to the boiler room, full broad side with leg forward. The bullet should have penetrated deeply, but didn't.
If you did not recover the deer, how do you know for certain your shot landed in the boiler room?

Also, how do you know that inadequate penetration was the problem if you did not recover the animal to observe this first hand?

I am brand new to muzzle loading as I just aquired a CVA Accura 2 weeks ago. Have shot the same Hornady 250gr bullet as the OP as well as a 348gr Powerbelt HP so far. I am finding out that the bullets and powder(s) are on the high side compared to the smokeless / center fire components. That's neither here nor there though.

However, I am not new to hunting and totally agree with the above post. About the only other way that the shot placement could be verified would be watching video tape footage if it was available. Maybe the original poster can elaborate on this.


Edit....wleggart
As I said I am a total newbie on this but do go with manufactures recomendations. The OP stated he used Blackhorn powder and they reccomend against using "209 muzzleloader primers" with their powder. They suggest a hotter primer such as the CCI 209M or Federal 209A. I am following what Western Powders suggest, even getting the modified breech plug as it's supposed to give a more consistant ignition.

 

[Skyshot]

I've had the same thing happen, with the same bullet. Mine was 250 TC shockwave, which is in reality the same bullet. I shot a nice 8 point buck at about 50 yards shooting downhill at a steep angle but broadside. The buck did a mule kick and went straight down on his chin. He then plowed the ground pushing his body with just his back legs for about 10 to 15 yards. He got all four legs up and headed straight down the mountain. When I got down to the impact area, I could find no blood trail whatsoever. I followed the direction the deer went and couldn't find him. We even did a grid search after help got there, but came up empty. I'm still sick from losing the deer.

To add to this, I killed a 10 point in 2013, broadside with same bullet and it did not get a pass thru, and the same 2011. This should have given me a red flag, but both those deer dropped at the shot.

The only reason for my using the SST/Shockwave, was my Encore would group 3 shots inside of a nickel at 100 yards.

I had some good results with the Barnes 250 gr. Expanders a few years back, I'm going to do some more testing with those and few others before next season. But no more Shockwaves for me also.

 

[BlondeBear63]

Thanks for replying swathdriver.

PRB in a 1:28 twist?

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

with his twist rate of 1 in 28 a PRB would not be the best option.
Stay with the conical.
And yes you still need lube the bullet lube grooves.
They help seal and also help keep fouling soft, yes I know he's using Blackhorn.

best lube is your own tailored lube of beeswax and lard.

But wonder lube 1000 works well too.
Bore butter is really too soft, but it will work.

And your Lyman maxi at 370 gr is more than enough oomph!

 

[BlondeBear63]

+1

Stick with what works. A patched round ball works very, very well and is far cheaper than magical wonder bullets for these magical inline space gun just-barely-a-muzzleloader things.

Hi Cooldill,

Thanks for your input. Yep, it's as futuristic as a light saber. I used to have a T/C Renegade. It was great for sunny days, too pretty for real treacherous mountain hunting in snow, rain, etc. I have also owned a T/C Thunderhawk Shadow. What a pain to clean. Heck, it would literally be rusting by the time I got out of the rain and into the truck. The CVA Optima can take a beating in all kinds of weather and as accurate as I need. And with Blackhorn 209 is easily cleaned.
And honestly, I wouldn't hunt with a muzzle loader if I could use my rifle instead. But I do completely agree with you regarding "...magical wonder bullets."

 

[BlondeBear63]

Loyalist,

Thanks for your input. I bought more than a hundred of the bullets along with some percussion caps, etc when a friend bought his Optima several years ago. They worked well in my Thunderhawk but not so well in my Renegade. For the Renegade I used the pre-lubed store bought kind weighing 320 grains. Those also worked well.

When I first acquired the 370 grain bullets, I was also able to find on the T/C website, I believe it was under black powder manuals, the corresponding ballistic information. Most surprising is how quickly they lose both speed and energy. With a 100 grain charge of FFg muzzle velocity/energy is 1465 fps/1764 foot pounds. At 100 yards it becomes 1044 and 896 respectively. By 150 yards those numbers are down to 942 fps & 729 foot-pounds. Still respectable as a deer cartridge, BUT there are black bear about...

So, I began harking back to the days of plentiful bison and the 50-90 as well as the 50-110. So, for now, I am using a "middle ground" as well as recommended charge. I really do think this to be a great deer combo, but I also think there is an equally good combo that would work on black bear as well. That brings me back to the 444 grain Power Belt and "magnum capable." Any thoughts?

 

[BlondeBear63]

Hi Arkansas,

Shot my first deer in '78 and have been doing so since then. My Optima is VERY accurate for a muzzle loader. That aside, we all know when we are shooting accurate guns and where the shot pretty much went when it isn't perfect. Given my gun sometimes shoots 1" high and 3/4" right at 75 yards on a cold start, this shot would have been about an inch forward and about the same high of where I really wanted it. Which when shooting downhill was 6" from the bottom line and directly in line with the shoulder joint.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I will gladly yield to you in the experience department, as I was not yet born in 1978.
And I can attest to the accuracy of a CVA Optima, as my Optima Elite is likewise extremely accurate. With 295 grain Powerbelt hollow points and 80 grains of loose Pyrodex it will shoot sub 2" groups at 100 yds all day long. The last deer I shot was with that combo and at 160 yds the bullet hit about 3" higher than I wanted, but still did the trick just fine, as the doe only ran about 30-40 yards before expiring.

However, we must never attribute ourselves with perfection. We can all miss from time to time.

Please don't think I'm trying to call you our or something, I assure you I'm not.

I just don't see any way a bullet can take a deer cleanly behind the shoulder and not penetrate deep enough to get to the lung/heart area. It would only take a few inches of penetration to reach the vitals.

I wonder if it hit bone and deflected or something.

How much blood/hair did you find?

 

[BlondeBear63]

wleggart,

Thanks for your thoughts. Concerning primers, there are the original shot shell and muzzle loader types. The muzzle loading types were developed due to some powders not igniting quick enough to offset the pressure impulse of the 209 shot shell primer. The impulse is or was believed to be strong enough to cause the projectile to move up the barrel before the main powder charge ignited. The premature movement of the payload will lead to shot to shot variation and decreased accuracy. Winchester manufactures Triple Seven 209 muzzle loading primers for the corresponding Triple Seven pellets. Check with your powder/pellet manufacturer for more specifics. lol

 

[BlondeBear63]

Arkansas,

I believe my experience is much the same as described by Skyshot. I found hair, a very sparse blood trail for about 12 feet, a bit of sinew 15 yards away, as well as tough pink matter about 20 yards from there. I spent more than four hours searching, not an easy task in the Appalachians.

Too, I own my mistakes as learning from them makes me not only a better hunter, but one that is also respectable and believable. You come to know if you made a mistake or bad shot just as much as when you made a good shot and something else didn't go right. I feel something went wrong. Again, something very similar to that Skyshot described.

BTW, age and experience are completely unrelated. I know 50 year old green horns and kids knowledgeable beyond their age. You need not think I feel superior hunter...

 

[DD4lifeusmc]

your rifle and powder not withstanding the main reason the slug from your magic wonder sabotted bullet is traveling faster is because it is much lighter.
There is a formula for figuring velocity and energy at the muzzle. I have it, too lazy to dig it out right now.
Other than the T/C / Lyman 370 gr maxi you may want to try the Lee REAL (real being a gimmick name) 250 (?) or 320 conical.
A bit lighter so they will travel a bit faster and a bit flatter.
However, you will likely have to cast your own.

 

[BlondeBear63]

Hi Skyshot,

It is sickening when an animal wanders away to suffer & die due to my action. What bothers me almost as much is falling into the hype of "High Speed" "Long Range Accuracy' and "Knockdown Power." I know better. The new gun, scope, and improved powder also came with promises of using bullets wrapped and tipped in "polymer." Magic bullets that meant always getting your quarry.

I am going back to what I should have done in the first place, heavy lead. The aforementioned Maxi-Balls with 90-100 grains of Blackhorn are hard hitting and very accurate. I haven't used any lube, yet, and am not seeing any troubles. Might I suggest heading out and finding some before hunting season is over (They are available from T/C at Wal-Mart). They have been a great way for me to restart and will be in my gun throughout the rest of the season. For the future the will be my backup as I am leaning towards 400-450 grain pre-lubed(?) bullet designed for muzzle loading as well as thinking of somewhat emulating the old Sharps 50-90 and 50-110 loads.

 

[BlondeBear63]

your rifle and powder not withstanding the main reason the slug from your magic wonder sabotted bullet is traveling faster is because it is much lighter.
There is a formula for figuring velocity and energy at the muzzle. I have it, too lazy to dig it out right now.
Other than the T/C / Lyman 370 gr maxi you may want to try the Lee REAL (real being a gimmick name) 250 (?) or 320 conical.
A bit lighter so they will travel a bit faster and a bit flatter.
However, you will likely have to cast your own.

Hey DD,

Thanks for your interests. I have taken most of the formulas for twist, muzzle energy, gyroscopic stability, etc and put it into an Excel spreadsheet so I can evaluate just about any bullet/caliber combination.

And I am not afraid to take my licks for being stupid, like trying the sabot magic bullet. Yep, I own that fustercluck. And I am here to get real help to fix it in a way to suit me. Heavy bullets.