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New to BP shooting, need a little advice

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T

The Sicilian

member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
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248
Location
Baltimore, Maryland
Hi everyone,

I just purchased a used Umberti 1858 New Army from Valley Gun Shop in Baltimore, Maryland. The gun is in really excellent condition, besides a few minor dings here and there and some speckled rusting inside the barrel. This gun looks like it was made in the 70's or 80's by the look of the box and manual it came with. The gun was imported by Cabela's and was made by Umberti. Is there any way for me to find out exactly when it was made?

I orginally bought a Navy 1851 at Bass Pro but took it back because I didn't want to have to fool around with the wedge on my first BP gun. The 1851 .44 doesn't take a conversion either but the 1858 does, so that was also another reason why I returned the 1851 which was made by Pietta and imported by Traditions. The gun did have a nice feel though and was well made considering the price but it doesn't hold water compared to the 1858 made by Umberti.

The salesperson at bass Pro was a young kid who probably wasn't older than 20 years and he set me up with some stuff I didn't need. He also left out a lot of information that I would have liked to know, like using wads instead of grease, etc. Anyway, he sold me .451 round balls with the 1851 but after reading some of the posts here it sounds like I should go with a .454 or a .457 especially since I bought a .44cal 1858. Is this true?

I've got Goex black powder and some Pyrodex 30gr. pellets to use with my gun. I'm curious to see which works better. I also want to make some paper cartridges and see how they work. The kid at Bass Pro did show me an 1858 but it was a brass framed version and that was why I didn't buy one there. I did notice that the cylinder pin on the brass Pietta came all the way out of the gun where as my 1858 Umberti cylinder pin is attched to the gun, it doesn't come all of the way out of the gun, it is attached, which I tend to like more myself.

Any tips and tricks would be very much welcomed. I'd also like to know how to go about getting rid of the minor rust spot on the tip of the inside of the barrel. I have a brass bore brush and some Hoppe's #9 gun oil, I also have some EZ-clean patches to go along with the Hoppe's. What should I do first to remove the rust? Use the brass bore brush with the gun oil or use the EZ-clean patches and then the brush with the gun oil?

The Sicilian.:confused:
 
Wow,

You want the full course, and you bought a gun on a whim. I didn't like this, I didn't like him, and I didn't like that.B, AC, AD, BA, whatever. There's a code we ain't letting you newcomers onto until you been here at least 6 posts.

You should have kept the 51 navy, there ain't no screwing around with no wedges. You put the cylinder in place, you put the barrell in place, you push the wedge in with your thumb. You'll probably learn it is easier than rolling the cylinder out of your Remington, the first dozen times. Probably get some dings and scratches on the cylinder before you learn how to do it properly, especially if you listen to all you hear on forums.

.451 round ball? How do you know that is not what you should be using? Did you mike or caliper the chambers? I have a Colt '60 that has .445 chambers, hard to shove .451 balls into it. If you have a larger average chamber, and you measure to see, get the next size ball, try to get 3 thou or more shave. Makes for a chainfire proofer, in a way.

Why in the hell would you buy pellets? You want to shoot BP, you buy loose powder. That crap is made for lazy asses who shoot BP, HAH!!!, BP, rifle, and can't be bothered to find the round and the charge their rifle will shoot well with.

Did he tell you you should use wads, or did he tell you to use grease? If he said to use grease, Bore Butter, specifically, as that is what they sell, he was selling you a 7 buck tube that would go a couple hundred rounds.

If he was selling you Wonder Wads, at 7 bucks a 100, he was screwing you.

So, if he said use some kind of grease, he ain't screwin' you, he is the guy you should go to the next time you go to that store.

What do you mean the cylinder pin is attached to the gun? It doesn't come out, which you like? If it doesn't, you have bought a short barell version. The full length barrell, the pin comes all the way out, the 6 1/2 inch barrell, it comes all the way out, I think you got to go to 4 3/4 inch before the cylinder pin hits at the front and you need an articulated pin to remove it.

Cheers,
George
 
Welcome Aboard!,

I'm new here also, and like you I went with the 1858 Remington (mine is a Pietta from Cabelas). I've been having a blast with mine and have tried several different loadings (wad, no wad, grease, no grease, etc). Here's what I like best. 35 gr. Goex fffg followed by a lubed felt wad. Then I use a 7/16 wood dowel to push the wad down over the powder charge and seat a .454" diameter ball. I haven't tried any .451" diameter balls but the .454's seem about the right size for my gun. When I seat the balls in the cylinder it shaves a very thin ring of lead but they aren't hard to seat. I didn't measure the cylinders or the bore on my gun. Accuracy is plenty acceptable so I will stick with what I've been doing. Also, after I seat the balls I take the cylinder out of the gun and top off all the cylinders with Crisco. I'm not sure if it really helps but it seems to keep the fouling down better than no Crisco. Before I shot my revolver I completely disassembled it, washed it with soap and water, coated everything with T/C bore butter, and put in the oven on 150 for about 30 minutes. I don't know if this is all the "best" advice, but it has worked well for me. Stick around and ask questions, the folks here know a lot about these guns and are very willing to help. Use the Search function, you will learn a lot from past posts.

Throw the pellets away. I don't think you'll need them.
 
I did notice that the cylinder pin on the brass Pietta came all the way out of the gun where as my 1858 Umberti cylinder pin is attched to the gun, it doesn't come all of the way out of the gun, it is attached, which I tend to like more myself.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming you mean that the cylinder pin came all the way out when you dropped the loading ram to remove the cylinder? Sounds like they machined that one a bit too much, it's not typical of the Piettas. I've modified my cylinder pin on my antiqued 58 to pull free without first removing the loading ram...handy for a quick clean at the range without taking screws out of the gun. It's not for everyone, just my personal choice (and also accurate to the 1861 production of this model).

451 or .454 balls? Most of these replicas (1858 Remingtons) will take either one and shoot either just as well as the other. I've used both and no difference in accuracy that I can tell. I like the .454 better since I have more lead in contact with the chamber walls.

Either sell your pyrodex pellets or shoot them up as quick as you can get rid of them, you'll get much more BANG for your buck with loose powder. Pyrodex p or goex fffg or 777 fffg, your choice. I've also used the 30gr pellets and they are anemic! Feel more like 15gr than 30.

Most of all, read posts on here and on Thefiringline.com in the blackpowder forum, ask questions...there are no stupid questions and we have very smart people here who are willing to help steer you in the right direction. With most things, there is more than one correct way to get it done.
 
gmatov, you are a jerk. He had some questions and you was a real jerk to him. But tell you the truth I have never liked you, you have always came across that way to me.

You want the full course, and you bought a gun on a whim. I didn't like this, I didn't like him, and I didn't like that.B, AC, AD, BA, whatever.
Click to expand...

So tell me, have you ever got a gun on a whim? Did you ever need advice on using it? But like you say in your words, I don't like you.

You also didn't read that he had Goex too, not just the pellets, so why are you getting on him for that? It is his choice to get both, do you want me telling you what not to get?

This site is called the High Road, not be mean and sarcastic to people. You should have taken the high road, but since you didn't, I had to take the low road too because you pissed me off.

To everybody else besides gmatov, keep up the good work, and sorry you had to read this.
 
Man, I'm glad my feelings don't get hurt too easily. You'd have me crying.

Your quote had a line i must have screwed up somehow and didn't catch, the "B, AC, AD, BA, whatever", should have had a long leadin to the date codes in a square box, as he did ask " Is there any way for me to find out exactly when it was made?"

"That crap is made for lazy asses who shoot BP, HAH!!!, BP, rifle, and can't be bothered to find the round and the charge their rifle will shoot well with."

You don't feel that is true of the "Real BP rifle shooters"? Pellets are made for the "convenience", if you believe the makers, and not for the excess profit. The profits on a jar of 50 for 20 plus dollars, with a net weight of some 3 1/2 + ounces, about 100 bucks a pound. That's real "convenient", no?

I can live with you being pissed off.

Duncan, if you read my post and saw what I just tried to corect, the date codes and the like, I wasn't trying to be rude to the Sicilian. Just the first post I made anywhere withot proofing or editing, went straight to bed after that, hard to keep my eyes open or my mind on what I was typing.

Sicilian, if you read this, if you think, after reading my correction of it, that I was rough on you, I apologize. Come on back. I'll try to be nice in future.

Cheers,

George
 
HTML: 
Duncan, if you read my post and saw what I just tried to corect, the date codes and the like, I wasn't trying to be rude to the Sicilian.

Hey George, I was being sarcastic not critical - my tongue was in my cheek hence all the smilies. Maybe I should have put LOL as well, ANYROADUP as we say in Yorkshire, you just keep piontificating my man, others who read will learn something.
Duncan
 
Hello everyone,

Thanks for all of the kind responses, excluding gmatov everyone was very polite and helpful. I still plan to shoot with the Pyrodex pellets, just to see for myself how they work and if they really are "crap" or not. The main reason I bought them wasn't because of laziness, I was thinking more about having to load my gun in an emergency situation. I noticed there are more than a few people here interested in making their own paper cartridges. I'm sure the interest doesn't exclusively come from being lazy. The civil war boys used em', good enough for them, good enough for me.

I accept your apology gmatov. We all make mistakes. I've been guilty of acting like a jackass on more than a few occassions, it's cool. Dwave, I appreciated your kindness and I know you were coming from the heart. No need to feel bad for admonishing a person when they are doing wrong. Every now and then we all need a good kick in the arse.

I'm really going crazy waiting to shoot my revolver, I'm like a kid on christmas eve wishing it was morning so I could open my presents! Thanks for the advice Eagle, I'm glad there is someone else who is just starting out like me. We even have the same gun, besides yours being a Pietta. I found out that my gun was made in 2003, so much for thinking it was from the seventies! The guy who owned it before me must have been a heavy smoker because the manual that came with the gun was yellowed to all hell!

Would anyone know where I can get a manual for my revolver online? The manual that came with the gun didn't have any schematics (diagram) on how to break the gun down in any detail. I don't want to risk taking my revolver apart without a good blueprint otherwise I might get myself into a little trouble.

The Sicilian.
 
I could be wrong (tell my wife I said that and I'll deny it) but I don't think the owner's manual for Pietta shows any exploded view. I know mine didn't. I don't think my Uberti did, either but can't lay my hands on it right now to check for sure.

You might want to buy PERCUSSION PISTOLS AND REVOLVERS byJohnny Bates and Mike Cumpston (known here as mec). Pages 133 and 134 explain how to disassemble an 1858 Remington. You can order it from Barnes and Noble. I keep looking back into mine for something or other.

Steve
 
You might want to buy PERCUSSION PISTOLS AND REVOLVERS byJohnny Bates and Mike Cumpston (known here as mec).
Click to expand...

Me too on the book. I bought it, and it is a very well written with lots of info on these guns.

I think my Pietta came with a manual. I will look tonight and if it did you are welcome to it. I will PM you if I have the manual and mail it to you if you want it.
 
Remington Guts

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Everything but the screws. These are pretty easy after the first or second time. things to remember are:

The "ears on the bolt go in front of the little cam on the left side of the hammer. The bolt goes in easiest with the hammer forward. The trigger usually goes in easiest with the hammer back. One screw holds both on the remington while the colt has separate screws for each.

The hand is retained in the side of the hammer by a short screw. In order to remove them you have to push the bottom of the hammer down in the frame (inset) and undo the screw. Putting them back in is just a matter of positioning- not as hard as it might be.

It is helpful to align the bolt and trigger from the opposit side with a guide pin of some sort while you wiggle the screw in through both.

the main spring is under tension all the time and it is a bit difficult to get it lined up with the seat in the bottom front of the grip frame. Leverage is the answer. Put the top of the spring in position in the hammer recess. Put an object- I used an empty 8mm mauser case at mid point between the spring and the front of the frame. Then, you can push inward on the bottom of the spring until it lines up with the seat. Then shove sideways.

On my remington, tightening the tgension spring with the hammer down will cause the spring to pop out of the hammer seat. Screwing it in with the hammer cocked prevents this. A foremost authority on another site said that this is because my spring is too short or otherwise defective and will soon pop out under use. Like many Internet scientists, he is just as wrong as wrong can be.
 
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Sicilian,

Ah, man, even after you read that I had a screwed up incomplete post, you say "except for gmatov".

The 30 grain pellets are hard to ignite. They will probably, not definitely, not go off. The makers even compress REAL BP onto the bottom of the pill to make them fire. That does not mean they WILL fire, just that they have a better chance TO fire.

If you read my last, I said the "laziness" was the BP, HAH!!!, BP rifle shooters, who use the pellets are the lazy people.

They use 50 grain pellets and say , "Ho, man, I got's the best load ever, 2 50 grain pellets, goes all over the range, down there, ain't a herd of deer safe from me, gots to hit one of them."

Shoot your pellets. Then shoot your Goex. You'll be happier with the loose powder. I am not the only one to say you should just burn the stuff. Read above.

As far as that kid screwing you, I wish a lot of posters here had as knowledgeable a "kid" advise them when they went to Cabela's or to any other store. That 20 year old gave you better advice than you will get at most forums, including here. He's there, talking to you. We are here, telling you what we have learned and trying to tell you what he has already told you.

"Except for gmatov", hokay, henceforth, you want any info from me, ask, you want to keep that attitude, go pound salt, and to dwave, you don't like my response, ditto.

Duncan,

I'm tired of "pontificating". When I say something, I get attacked. I'm NOT PC!!! Well, screw 'em. You don't like what I say, skip my posts. That is the beauty of the Internet. You don't HAVE to read everything you see.

Hell, I skip a bunch of the posts, here and elsewhere.. Just because it's writ here, it ain't gospel.

Cheers,

George
 
Apparently gmatov, you're some sort of a moron. Re-read my post. I wasn't putting the kid down, I just wished he would have said a little more. I came to this forum with a good spirit and you came off like a dick head, pure and simple. I'm sorry about the language guys but I think it's accurate. You complain to Duncan because you think people take you the wrong way? Try taking your foot out of your mouth before you speak! :cuss:

I apologize for the foul language guys, I rarely use bad language but I'm sick and tired of ignorant internet snobs who wouldn't dare speak to another man like that face to face. Please forgive me. As for you gmatov, apparently you don't know when to keep your mouth shut. Do me a favor and just don't speak to me anymore unless you have enough chartacter to humble yourself and apologize for your bad behavior.

Thanks to everyone else who offered me all of the good advice, I really do appreciate it. I hope you don't judge me too harshly because of my response to gmatov, he had it coming.

The Sicilian.:barf:
 
Is "dick head" a bad word????? Gee, No wonder they stopped inviting me to the church socials.
 
I did notice that the cylinder pin on the brass Pietta came all the way out of the gu

mine doesn't come all the way out until I remove the loading lever and piston.
 
schematics (diagram) on how to break the gun down in any detail

Dixie Gun Works has free downloadable exploded views.

On a level of complexity, the bp guns are retards.

But I really mean that they are easy to service by disassembly and reassembly.

Just put the parts out in line, clean them one at a time and reasemble in the reverse order.
 
The hand is retained in the side of the hammer by a short screw.

Gotta watch those replacement screws too. Some screw into the hammer, some into the hand.
 
Look at the cylinder pin. it should have a flat on the bottom side back to about 1/4 inch from the end. If it is flat all the way to the end then you need a new Cylinder pin sometime in the future. It will not hinder the action of the pistol but it is a PITA when you want to swap out cylinders and you have to fiddle with putting the cylinder pin back in. The pin should be held in by the rammer that is held by the screw, the screw by itself does not hold the cyl pin in. Hope this helps.
 
sjohns,

Yup, you're right, that is exactly what I was talking about seeing while I was at Bass Pro. The brass Remington 1858 cylinder pin comes completely out, where as my Uberti New Army 1858 cylinder pin doesn't come out unless the screw on the loading lever is removed. I also thing I it was one of those 12" Buffalo guns, so maybe that's why the pin comes out completely.

I've been having a problem finding those diagrams on Dixie's site, if anyone could paste a link that would be great. I'll still take another look though, Dixie's web master isn't exactly an organization freak.

Hey mec, thanks for the pic, it will definitely help me out.

The Sicilian.
 
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