jeffmoline
Member
Just picked up a Glock 17. Any reason to NOT carry one in the chamber? I'm used to my Ruger P95 and like the assurance of having the hammer down and the long first double action pull.
You'll never be an, 'American Cowboy' nor a card carrying member of the, 'Kool-Aid Brigade' unless you carry your new Glock with one in the chamber. Forget about silly non-sequiturs like: your own personal safety, or that of your family, and friends.
It's far more important for you to go around, 'cocked and locked' all of the time with your Glock in, 'C-0' (Which IS the correct term for Glock's pretensioned striker lockwork.) than it is for you to exercise good old fashioned uncommon common sense - especially with guns!
Look at things this way: The world is a battlefield; you are a sheepdog, and not one of the sheep. Law enforcement can't be everywhere; and your personal safety is essentially your own responsibility. Every new Glock owner needs to be constantly vigilant and prepared for that (once in a lifetime) unsuspected and instantaneous life-threatening ambush event.
Remember: If you can't draw and fire your new Glock with only one hand and in .65 second, or less, then your pistol is no better than a brick. Does this help you any?
Time to load one in the chamber is forever if you need to use the gun, regardless of what anyone says, it is an eternity. Remember, you also have to draw, aim, and fire. Simple math will show that loading a round equals four steps instead of three and thus also means more time.
You lose one extra round you'd otherwise have.
Don't the police carry with one in the pipe?
Most of the arguments people have made to me for not carrying one in the pipe are variations of, "I'll never be able to remember firearms safety, so I should make sure I don't keep one in the pipe so everyone is safe.
Ultimately, it comes down to removing as much uncertainty and chance as I possibly can for a situation which already has infinite permutations / factors I cannot control. Since I know that, I should do all I can with the factors I can control.
I'm used to my Ruger P95 and like the assurance of having the hammer down and the long first double action pull.
Just picked up a Glock 17. Any reason to NOT carry one in the chamber?
Just picked up a Glock 17. Any reason to NOT carry one in the chamber? I'm used to my Ruger P95 and like the assurance of having the hammer down and the long first double action pull.
These are not necessarily facts. See http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5868741&postcount=174Evela said:....it's worthwhile just to state the facts and let the user decide...
Completely irrelevant with a Glock.Evela said:An external safety, ...requires fine motor skills,
smells like a troll to me.
kdstrick said:It is the same thing as carrying a loaded revolver.
Posted by Evela with my reply comments in bold red:
There are so many threads on this subject that it's worthwhile just to state the facts and let the user decide:
1. The Israeli draw, with a bit of practice, will add about 0.3 seconds to your draw. That's it.
2. If you lack 0.3 seconds, you're already in a hand to hand combat situation. Your goal now is NOT to draw, but to escape so that you can.
3. The Israeli draw uses gross motor skills, the last to be affected by stress and panic.
Yeah...because they've practiced and practiced and developed muscle memory.
4. An external safety, at best, is barely faster than the Israeli draw. Unlike the Israeli draw, it requires fine motor skills, the first to go under stress. Accordingly a highly stressed shooter may go blank, fail to release the safety or may activate an unintentionally released safety.
Not really and besides...my pistol doesn't have an external safety. It is simply point and shoot or don't point and shoot. Kind of like a revolver.
All fine motor skills lost under stress.
And racking the chamber doesn't require fine motor skill? It certainly isn't any more difficult for most of us than racking a slide would be. It is actually less difficult to switch off a safety considering it requires less range of motion and less strength to operate
All the BS about how LE carries means exactly nothing to the many CCW and new shooters who are far less competent, do not train as much, have probably never been in a gunfight, and are highly likely to panic and suffer extreme stress.
Wait...so you're saying that because law enforcement are more trained than we are AND carry one in the pipe, we who are not as trained should not carry one in the pipe...what? If those of us who aren't law enforcement and not trained are more likely to panic, WHY would we want to add another step into the whole process??
Under these conditions, the Israeli draw makes a lot of sense. For most average or newer gunowners it will probably be safer AND faster.
Now I'd like specifically address some of the comments made:
Actually I probably overstated the additional time to rack and chamber at 0.3 seconds. And you don't have to be a trained Israeli commando either. Actually it is not really an additional step. You draw and rack as the gun is moved forward. The gun has to cover the same path whether it is racked or not. It did not take me much practice before my draw/rack was one smooth motion.Time to load one in the chamber is forever if you need to use the gun, regardless of what anyone says, it is an eternity. Remember, you also have to draw, aim, and fire. Simple math will show that loading a round equals four steps instead of three and thus also means more time.
Ok...and what if you don't have your other hand free? This requires 2 hands. There are countless reasons you might not have a free hand. Yet I could still draw and shoot...but not if it isn't CHAMBERED. And allow me to quote the ENTIRE part of my post you chopped...the part about potential jamming while racking the slide...
1. Time to load one in the chamber is forever if you need to use the gun, regardless of what anyone says, it is an eternity. Remember, you also have to draw, aim, and fire. Simple math will show that loading a round equals four steps instead of three and thus also means more time. Add into the equation the potential problems you may have loading (i.e. jamming) during the rush and the time factor goes up exponentially.
It is VERY important to realize that most of us have never been in a real firefight. It has been well discussed the loss of the fine motor skills needed to activate a safety are the first to go. Many people even pee their pants, and even experienced LE's have been known to go blank and/or shoot wildly at very short range.
Again...loss of motor skill = chambering a round? What?? If there is a loss of motor skill, why would I want to worry about chambering a round??
The real honest truth is that when facing life and death, probably for the first time, the Israeli draw - which CAN be accomplished with the gross motor skills we have left - will likely be more reliably faster.
Based on what? According to whom? If you are basing it on people, like law enforcement, who have TRAINED as you so often said, then how are we supposed to be so good at this if we haven't developed the muscle memory?
If under stress, you can't perform fine motor skills, you will die with that one extra round.You lose one extra round you'd otherwise have.
I agree...and in your method, you'll die without one in the chamber...kind of requires a certain amount of motor skill to rack it back last time I was at the range
This has been well addressed. Regardless of the fact that even experienced LE have been known to lose it, most of us are not police. We lack the training, exposure, experience and practice. We are FAR more likely to suffer from the debilitating effects of extreme stress.Don't the police carry with one in the pipe?
Wait...so you're saying that because law enforcement are more trained than we are AND carry one in the pipe, we who are not as trained should not carry one in the pipe...what? If those of us who aren't law enforcement and not trained are more likely to panic, WHY would we want to add another step into the whole process??
It's not about that at all, in fact it's just the opposite. NOT carrying one "in the chute" will keep us safer, more reliably, than carrying one. The famous Fairborne and Sykes developed tactics in the early 1900's that continue until today. Their attitudes developed from their experiences in Shanghai, and from hundreds of interviews and visits with police departments around the country.Most of the arguments people have made to me for not carrying one in the pipe are variations of, "I'll never be able to remember firearms safety, so I should make sure I don't keep one in the pipe so everyone is safe.
Their position: pin the safety and carry a full magazine with nothing in the chamber. They recognized nearly a hundred years ago that the safety was a detriment, not an advantage.
A safety is a detriment...for whom? How is it any more or less of a detriment than not having one chambered?
On that we agree. Relying on dependable gross motor skills does exactly that...Ultimately, it comes down to removing as much uncertainty and chance as I possibly can for a situation which already has infinite permutations / factors I cannot control. Since I know that, I should do all I can with the factors I can control.
Thanks for not including my ENTIRE quote and cutting them up to suite your fake facts. You should be banned for this IMHO
Most certainly carry one in the pipe.
To quote the movie Sleuth:
"Is that loaded?"
"Of course, what would be the use of it otherwise?"
1. Time to load one in the chamber is forever if you need to use the gun, regardless of what anyone says, it is an eternity. Remember, you also have to draw, aim, and fire. Simple math will show that loading a round equals four steps instead of three and thus also means more time. Add into the equation the potential problems you may have loading (i.e. jamming) during the rush and the time factor goes up exponentially.
2. You lose one extra round you'd otherwise have. Regardless of the arguments (stupid arguments IMHO) people have for not needing more than X number of bullets, why not carry the number your firearm can hold?
3. Don't the police carry with one in the pipe? If any police here carry without one in the pipe while on duty, please let us know where you work so I can make sure I don't live there.
4. Perhaps the best reason, do you feel lucky? I know I don't, so I carry one in the chamber. If you feel like you're that fast, that good, and that lucky that you don't need to carry one in the pipe, I recommend you visit Vegas with your entire life's savings. Put it all on number 7 black at the roulette table.
Most of the arguments people have made to me for not carrying one in the pipe are variations of, "I'll never be able to remember firearms safety, so I should make sure I don't keep one in the pipe so everyone is safe." For those people, I suggest you sell your guns for your safety and ours. Tasers and pepper spray may be more suited to your level of ability.
Ultimately, it comes down to removing as much uncertainty and chance as I possibly can for a situation which already has infinite permutations / factors I cannot control. Since I know that, I should do all I can with the factors I can control. One in the pipe is a factor I can control.
Evela said:3. The Israeli draw uses gross motor skills, the last to be affected by stress and panic.