Newbie Smith Wesson Question

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TexasGunbie

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When I go through some online classified, I always see people say "I have a S&W XXX no dash!"

What does it mean to have no dash after the model number? Is that a good thing?

Sometimes people will say I have a SW pre-locked! What is prelocked??
 
No dash simply means that the revolver is the original model, prior to any changes. Below is a list of the changes made for a handful of models. For example, a Model 17-3 would differ from a Model 17 no dash as follows:

Change to LH extractor rod thread
Cylinder stop changed, hole in front of trigger guard eliminated
Relocation of rear sight leaf screw


Model 10
-1 1959 Heavy Barrel
-2 1961 Changed extractor rod thread to LH on standard barrel
-3 1961 Same as above, for heavy barrel
-4 1962 Screw in front of trigger eliminated
-5 1962 1/10" to 1/8" front sight, on standard barrel
-5 1962 Screw in front of trigger guard eliminated on
heavy barrel model
-7 1977 Change to put gas ring from yoke to cylinder
-8 1977 Change to put gas ring from yoke to cylinder
on heavy barrel model
Model 12 1957
-1 1962 Change extractor rod to LH thread, eliminate
screw in front of trigger guard
-2 1962 Front sight changed from 1/10" to 1/8"
-3 1977 Gas ring on yoke to cylinder
-4 1984 Change frame thickness to same as all K frames
Model 13 No designation used to avoid confusion with air force model
13 air crewman
Model 13
-1 1974 Introduced
-2 1977 Change back to gas ring on cylinder
-3 1982 eliminate cylinder counterbore
Model 14,15,16,17,18,48,53 (all start without dash in 1957)
-1 1959 Change to LH extractor rod thread
-2 1961 Cylinder stop changed, hole in front of trigger
guard eliminated
-3 1967 Relocation of rear sight leaf screw
-4 1977 Changed gas ring from yoke to cylinder
19 All of the above changes and
-5 1982 Eliminate cylinder counterbore

With regard to your second question, I believe you mean pre-lock. Simply a designation that the revolver does not have safety lock that S&W began putting on the revolvers starting on a date unknown to me.
 
And just to confuse you more...you'll see reference to S&Ws being P&R or Pinned & Recessed

P&R means that the barrel is Pinned...there is a pin inserted into the frame above the shank of the barrel, which keeps it from being rotated until the pin is removed...and the rear of the chambers are Recessed for the rims of cartridges...which dates from the days of balloon head shell casings.

No-Dash isn't always better, just an earlier variation. Some earlier variations are less desirable as shooters, but more as collectors...like the M66
 
The "dash number" is used by S&W primarily to indicate a change that would affect parts interchangeability without relying on serial numbers. It is a way of making sure a gunsmith or anyone buying parts gets ones that will fit.

Jim
 
And just to confuse you more...
No-Dash isn't always better, just an earlier variation.

+1


Just starting out you can get overwhelmed because you almost have to look at the specific model and then the lineage to see what's better or more collectible.

If someone is listing it as a "no dash" chances are it's something beneficial, whether the dash is a functional improvement or a change to reduce costs varies from gun to gun. In my experience most dash revisions are done to reduce costs or labor but rarely affect the quality of the gun, just collectability.

For example, I have a no dash 686, which means there are no MIM parts. That's important to some, not to others but if I were to sell it I would mention it's a no-dash.
 
Recessed for the rims of cartridges...which dates from the days of balloon head shell casings.
Nothing to do with balloon-head cases.
Recessed rims were first used in S&W .22 RF revolvers to prevent blown case rims and are still used for them.

Not used on any other caliber until the .357 Magnum was introduced in 1935.
Then it was used in the .44 Mag in 1956, and later 41 Mag in 1964.

It could be argued it was not even necessary, as there were no balloon-head .357, .41 or .44 Mag cases ever made.

rc
 
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Personally I find the term "no dash" to be clumsy and unnecessary.

This is a Model 27:

standard.jpg



See. You knew what I was talking about without the silly "no dash" added.
 
Unfortunately though, many on-line Sellers will list a Revolver, as say "Model 10".

One might suppose this is done cogently, as the most polite way of saying it is a 'no dash'...but, if one writes them a question asking for them to describe literally what is stamped in the Crane, they write back "Model 10-6".


...sigh...
 
Yup. To the uninformed a 10-5 is a Model 10. So is a Victory Model and a Military & Police Model made in the 1920s. It's a shame that we must apparently adapt to accommodate the uninformed rather than use proper terminology.
 
Nothing to do with balloon-head cases.
Recessed rims were first used in S&W .22 RF revolvers to prevent blown case rims and are still used for them.

Not used on any other caliber until the .357 Magnum was introduced in 1935.
Then it was used in the .44 Mag in 1956, and later 41 Mag in 1964.

It could be argued it was not even necessary, as there were no balloon-head .357, .41 or .44 Mag cases ever made.
Exactly!


It's a shame that we must apparently adapt to accommodate the uninformed rather than use proper terminology.
That seems to always be the case.
 
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So then is Pre-lock a good thing??

it is unless you like an idiotic device that will occasionally lock up your gun because the drunken brain-damaged monkey that designed it made it rotate on the same axis as the recoil of the gun.

The Smith and Wesson internal lock might be the stupidest design since the nuclear rifle which did not shoot the warhead beyond its blast zone.
 
TexasGunbie:

The internal lock, activated by turning a hex key in the 'zit' above the cylinder release, has on occasion malfunctioned and locked up the gun. I've seen this happen personally with a model 617. A little jiggling of the lock 'flag' that sticks up beside the hammer made it release. Not really a problem on a range gun, a major issue on a carry gun. There have been internet reports of such malfunctions occurring while shooting, I've never seen photographic evidence however.
More importantly for long term shooters, it is evidence of a time when S&W caved to a lawsuit from the Clinton administration and agreed to a settlement that would have implemented many gun control measures that Clinton could not get passed by the Congress. The lock was mandated part of the settlement.

The internet gunosphere realised this was the beginning of the end if allowed to go forward and S&W was boycotted, effectively driving them broke. Their English owners sold S&W to Safety Hammer, the designer of the lock, basically for enough money to pay off S&Ws loans. In other words the company name, intellectual property and material assets were given away.
This was a clear warning to gun manufacturers not to cave to government demands that violated the second ammendment if they wanted to stay in business, and it worked. Other such deals that were in the pipeline failed.

The new owners refused to implement the settlement, other than the installation of the lock as that was their reason for existence.

Many Olde Timey shooters consider the lock to be the one step over the line that S&W has not stepped back from and they continue to resist purchasing new S&Ws.

If you don't like the lock and do like new S&Ws there are instructon available on the net on how to remove the lock.

TL,DR:
Locks can malfunction, there are political reasons for a lot of the lock hate. Don't let it turn you off new S&Ws.
 
ditto Radagast
almost everybody prefers the pre-internal-lock models, me specifically included, all of my own are that
but the infernal lock passion is 99% about passion rather than practical reality
documented cases of internal lock failure are about as rare as hen's teeth
unless you know a guy who knows a guy who knew a guy who said....
but it has happened, and did happen to one (now two) of the members on this forum, fact
(1st guy dropped the gun on the floor)

if you want a Magnum Airweight, it might be prudent and practical to remove the internal lock (and quite easily done, should you choose to, and I would)

but if lucky enough to find an old vintage pre-lock S&W revolver in great shape jump on it... and do not hold your breath waiting for somebody to criticize that choice, because nobody will, and you will save a lot of forum members money on heartburn medication !
(G was pretty much on target, total lack of brilliance reflected in design, even if it is pretty much irrelevant in practical perspective)

PS
and please avoid stirring passions up over what some dead man once said, to encourage folks to buy more revolvers vs. autoloaders
 
....and everything else they've done to cheapen the guns, all the while prices keep climbing.

If USFA can produce a premium-grade single action, produced with precision on modern CNC equipment with fit & finish that bests Colt and Smith & Wesson's golden years for $750, why can't S&W even come close???
 
It's a shame that we must apparently adapt to accommodate the uninformed rather than use proper terminology.
The term we learned back in 6th grade mathematics was "Lowest Common Denominator". All these years later, it still applies :)
documented cases of internal lock failure are about as rare as hen's teeth
There were a whole lot of hen's teeth on the S&W Forum until the current owner came on board and deleted/closed a bunch of threads.

Yeah, I'm a believer, because I know someone who had "it" happen to him while dry-firing (about four years ago). He took it to his smith, still "auto-locked", and his smith disassembled the revolver and removed the offending pieces. He still carries it in it's "post mod" configuration.

Before his experience, I owned (and carried) half a dozen ILS S&Ws. Sold them all and replaced them with pre-lock models. I currently own one ILS M-25 that the prior owner removed the ILS parts. I carry it happily knowing that the ILS is deactivated.

It is your choice. Choose wisely.
 
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According to S&W, the incidents involving unintended lockup have been few and far between and most often happened when the revolver was firing hot loads. The incidents have become even more rare in the past few years. It would be interesting to see the total number of verified lockup compared to the total number of lock-equipped Smith & Wessons that have been sold.

The MIM myth, and if you ask anyone with a professional background in the subject, it is a myth, persists even as more manufacturers turn to the technology to produce more uniform parts at a lower unit cost. MIM parts are just as durable as those made by other methods in the proper application. Once again, it would be interesting to see the total number of MIM parts failures compared to the total number of MIM-part-containing firearms produced in teh past 20 years. It would also be interesting to see the failure rate of MIM parts compared to parts produced by other methods.

Perhaps someone has those numbers. If so, I'd like to see them. However, in Smtih & Wesson's case, it's my understanding that neither accidental lockups or MIM parts failures have been significant enough to cause a change in manufacturing or any defective-product legal actions. To me the incidence of either of these would have to be higher than the incidence of other common malfunctions to be considered a defect and nothing I have found so far indicates they are.

I have two modern Smith & Wesson J-frame revolvers, a Model 60-15 and a Model 637-2. Both have digested thousands of rounds of mixed ammo and have been dry-fired in practice even more thousands of times. They work every time. Neither of the internal locks have ever budged, even while firing Magnum or +P ammunition (in fairness, I seldom shoot more than 50-100 rounds of hot ammo per gun in one range session). There have been no problems with the parts. The triggers are very smooth and I don't find the pulls to be too heavy.

One other thing: Smith & Wesson has a lifetime warranty on new guns.

You should be careful of Smith & Wessons produced during the later 1970s and 1980s, toward the end of the Bangor Punta era. S&W's QC was apparently on vacation during much of that time and the couple of Smiths I bought in that time frame had issues, like timing being off badly enough to shave lead.

There has been political controversy surrounding Smith & Wesson in the past. I didn't agree with the boycott, though I didn't like the agreement S&W made with the Clinton Administration. S&W was up against almost certainly being sued into oblivion, setting the stage for similar actions with other gunmakers, and acted in its own best interests, which, to me, is how capitalism is supposed to work. By the time the lock actually appeared, both the White House and Smith & Wesson's new owner, Saf-T-Hammer, had repudiated the prior agreement but, since gun locks are Saf-T-Hammer's business, the locks remain and will likely be there a long time - like until there's a new owner.


I am not saying you should buy a new S&W or an old S&W. There are some very nice S&Ws no longer in production and you might be able to pick up a bargain. However, I have been very pleased with my two-year-old Smiths that were both bought brand-new.

You should buy what you feel best serves your needs, not what the prejudices of others recommend. You will never see me recommend a Glock or Kimber or Ruger LCP/LCR to anyone. Does that mean you shouldn't consider them? Yes, because I am the world's greatest expert on firearms and I know what's best for each individual. And I have some wonderful Florida property you'll want to invest in right away. You should make your own decision, but make it an informed decision.
 
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I would rather not have the lock.

I would not disable the lock. My wife (the lawyer) says she would have a field day in court going after a gunowner in a civil case who had removed a safety feature from a gun. If I absolutely could not stand the thought of having a gun with a lock I would not buy one rather than modify one.

I have only one lock equipped S&W and it seems to work fine. No, the finish quality isn't as good as the older guns and this is due to the time required to polish the metal adding to the cost and EPA rules banning the chemicals that were once used to get that beautiful blue. The fit is amazing, probably due to very precise CNC machining with close tolerances. The action and trigger are also fantastic and maybe for the same reason.


standard.gif
 
No, the finish quality isn't as good as the older guns and this is due to the time required to polish the metal adding to the cost and EPA rules banning the chemicals that were once used to get that beautiful blue.
USFA, Colt and plenty of other manufacturers don't seem to have an issue with producing a premium blued finish. If USFA can do this on a $675 gun, why can't S&W??? The answer is that people in general are not willing to pay any extra for such a finish, plain and simple. Most want the dishwasher-safe simplicity of stainless steel and rubber grips.

IMG_1138c.jpg
 
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