Newbie Smith Wesson Question

[cpirtle]

You're right, USFA makes a fantastic pistol. But let's face it, they're not making nearly as many of them as S&W and they cater to a somewhat niche' market. Given their product line they are flying well under the radar of the anti's and probably have very little of their profits being sifted off fighting for gun rights and fighting off lawsuits. IIRC they are also a non-union workforce.

AFAIK, the least expensive high lustre blue gun they sell has a list price north of $900. Most of their guns are in excess of $1100, stretching into the mid $2k's.

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I have to say this thread has utterly confused the hell out of me. I'm not trying to be argumentative but I know some will take it that way, I'm genuinely confused..

On one hand we have people saying that we're dumbing ourselves down by identifying our guns by dash numbers. While I agree with the sentiment that we should know our passions, when shopping for guns an informed buyer will want to know the dash so they know exactly what they are getting.

Most long running guns that have improvements along the way but don't change model numbers have some way of designating deesign changes, if not people add them to keep track. S&W adds them for us and people resent it

If I list a model 10 for sale I'm either leaving out important information people want to know, but with the dash unknowingly offending potential buyers who just feel it's a model 10.. or am I missing something?

For me, I feel the more info I pass to the buyer the better chance of them being happy with their purchase.

As for MIM, I don't care if the gun I want has them but I would certainly take non-mim if given a choice. MIM may be strong enough to do the job but I'm on the fence about them being as good or better than a part milled from a billet then hand tuned. I'd put a heck of a lot more weight on what the steel was composed of over how it was made into a part.

On locks, yeah they look like crap, yeah there's been a few reports of malfuntions but if you want the gun and can't get without the lock, or can't afford it without the lock (ahem: dash), you're pretty much stuck with it. Take your chances, grind the tab or remove it all together and go about yer business IMO. About the trial: last I heard there weren't any cases on record where removal of an ILS was used against someone who was justified in use of their firearm. A removed ILS would not be a factor in a justified self defense case anyway. To the same note, having an ILS does not replace responsible gun ownership. You still need to secure your firearm when it's not on your hip.

Side note: I'm always amazed at the heat S&W takes for their lock design when even it is superior to the engineering-afterthought that Taurus puts on their hammers, I've seen them jam when using them with the key..

Sorry for the rant

 

[CraigC]

But let's face it, they're not making nearly as many of them as S&W and they cater to a somewhat niche' market.

Exactly. With S&W's size and manufacturing capability, there is no reason why they couldn't supply sixguns finished as nicely. If there were a profitable market for it. My point, is simply that it has nothing to do with the EPA.

AFAIK, the least expensive high lustre blue gun they sell has a list price north of $900. Most of their guns are in excess of $1100, stretching into the mid $2k's.

Have you priced new S&W's lately??? A plain vanilla 686 (as plain as vanilla gets) has a list price of $932 and the best price I can get locally is $655. Their "Classic" models are running over $1100 list and around $800 street price. Like I said, the 12/22 I pictured was $675. Their mid-level blued/case hardened SAA runs $750 and their premium Pre-War model runs $1200. All excellent values. All precision built from CNC machined forgings. All exhibit the kind of fit & finish that S&W can't even come close to.

You can still get a comparable Ruger for $150 less. I've always claimed that S&W's had better fit and finish and were a more refined design but that's simply not true any more of the new guns.

Colt SAA's have been around $1200 for as long as I can remember. At least the last ten or fifteen years. They are now as good as they've ever been. S&W's used to be affordable, yet they keep cheapening them while the prices keep rising.

 

[Guillermo]

I'm always amazed at the heat S&W takes for their lock design when even it is superior to the engineering-afterthought that Taurus puts on their hammers

While I have never heard of a Taurus self-locking I am not saying that it doesn't happen. (Not a Taurus hater, just don't use their products these days)

Logic does dictate that the Smith design, working on the same rotational axis as the recoil of the gun is idiotic. That it rotates opposite the recoil is even worse.

Remember when you were a kid at Aunt Suzie's house and the hook for the screen door would get tangled in the "up" position. When the door would slam it would self-hook. Same principal.

I do admit that employing that law of physics was great fun when locking out my older brother. These days I carry a gun and I would prefer to avoid it.

YMMV

 

[18DAI]

Even IF S&W didn't manufacture the current products with MIM and even IF they lost that idiotic and UGLY lock and even IF they lost all the cost cutting measures and really had a nice blue --- they still don't currently make one appealing revolver.

Not one. Sad.

 

[cpirtle]

Don't get me wrong: I'm not a cool aide drinking Smith and Wesson defender, to some extent I'm playing devils advocate. It's no wonder someone new would be confused.

My point was if consumers want to buy something S&W makes they have to live with the "design flaws" and cost cutting &/or modify it to what they want, or go buy one made prior to point X when you feel like quality went to crap (ehem: dash).

How many DA Revo's is Colt making these days? Why? Too labor intensive is one of the biggest reasons. Every S&W is still hand fitted, by union employees - $$ cha-ching $$

Even in the 70's Ruger was self admittedly losing money on every Service & Speed Six they made.

CraigC, sounds like we'll just need to agree on disagreeing.

You are comparing mass produced DA's to Semi Custom small shop SA's. Same with Colt. Neither are producing the volume S&W is. Also, you are mixing street prices with MSRP when comparing prices. Aside from their entry level cowboy guns which are not as highly finished or are plated I still can't find a gun on their site for under $930.

SA'a are a lot less complex than DA's. To compare apples to apples you need to compare USFA's to Ruger and Uberti SA's, mass produced, lesser finish and pricing comensurate.

I own a USFA and it's a fine gun no doubt. I also own 4 Rugers & 2 Beretta's which are also fine guns. I've had them all apart and worked on more of them than I can count for people I shoot CAS with and there's a reason USFA's cost more. I'm not arguing that point.

I make handmade knives as a part time living. There's a reason people buy one of my knives for $250+ over a $60 Kabar. Same reason they buy a Chris Reeve over a Spyderco, and the same reason you buy a USFA over a Ruger.

Guillermo: Good comparison but there's one thing your Aunt's screen door hook didn't have: a spring...

 

[CraigC]

Read it again, I'm comparing street prices to street prices and MSRP's to MSRP's.

We're talking about S&W's, not Ubertis and Rugers. Though I agree with your asseessment in comparing the SA brands. Nobody makes a double action comparable to USFA so that's what we have to work with. Yes, double actions are more complex than single actions but S&W has been in the business making double actions, which have received only minor changes and updates, for over 100yrs. They've been decreasing the amount of handwork incrementally for that time. To the point now where the use of MIM parts negates much of the fitting work. What used to be hand-finished perfection is now completely gone. What we're left with is a sixgun as cheap as S&W can make it, while still retaining some semblance of quality and prices continue to rise.

The fact that USFA is small and S&W is big does not help your argument. Small shops can turn out better quality but that always comes at a price. Your knife examples illustrates this. The fact that a bright blued USFA, which rivals the best of hand-finished S&W's, is comparable in price to your basic 686 with its tumbler-induced finish, injection molded parts and the sorriest looking lettering I've ever seen tells us something. So yes, I'd say that S&W's bread and butter 686 is too little gun for waaaay too much money.

The fact that S&W is old and USFA is relatively new does not help either. A large company can much more easily absorb the costs of upgraded equipment. Such as Ruger's recent acquisition of modern CNC equipment. Yet they still turn profit every year and they still operate on cash. USFA is still paying for theirs. Yet they still market a sixgun that is higher in quality than anything short of Freedom Arms at relatively affordable prices.

Sooner or later people are gonna realize this.

At any rate, all I was responding to was the statement that S&W couldn't do fancy finishes. When in fact it is that they won't. They still produce blued guns and it's not the bluing tanks that produce the beautiful blued finishes we all miss, it's the metal prep. And that obviously, if USFA can do it affordably, there's no reason why S&W can't. IF they are willing and IF shooters are willing to pay extra for it. I postulate that they are not.

PS, beautiful knife by the way. I love the hand-forged look and own several from ML Knives. I also agree on your statements about why folks pay more for custom knives. I've become rather spoiled by getting them made exactly how I want, rather than settling for off-the-shelf stuff. Here's a one-off utensil set I had him do for me last year.