Next step up from .22LR?

[WeedWhacker]

I'm doing my best to introduce one of my friends to the world of shooting (for fun and serious work) in a wise manner. After starting out on a .22LR Ruger rental (I don't own a .22 autoloader), my friend wanted to shoot a round out of my 9mm G17 - and didn't like the result. That set me back a bit, as I was planning, likely fooloshly) to hit the basics of handling and operation with the .22LR Ruger before stepping right to the G17.

I'd love to find a pistol or a carbine which fires pistol rounds which is acceptable and fun for my friend, but in something better than .22LR - even .22WMR would be better.

I know of the following:
Excel Arms' Accelerator .22WMR pistol
Grendel/Gremmel/G-something (reported as not reliable)
AMT's .22WMR pistol (supposedly *very* dependant on ammo type for reliable function)

Anyone have experience with the Accelerator, specifically in terms of reliability? Any other comparable offerings I'd missed? Which carbines with a ".22LR-pistol-like" recoil are out there in a better calibre?

 

[telomerase]

I'd forget about the .22 magnum... they're really loud in any pistol and hard to make reliable in autos.

Any of the decent carbines will be very mild in 9mm. You might also consider a .38 revolver, as some people just don't like the slide moving. There have been some good reviews of the CZ83 in .32, maybe someone will chime in here (but you'll have to avoid rimlock).

Fit is usually the main problem, though. If the grips really fit and the person is comfortable with the action, they'll tolerate a lot more noise and recoil.

All that said, maybe they should just shoot .22s for a few months so that they get good habits and never develop a flinch.

 

[Wastemore]

I'm not a big Ruger fan, but the 10/22 mag has proven itself. If you don't mind spending a bit more a 77/22 would be a solid choice. A Single-six convertable is an enjoyable firearm to shoot and it will shoot .22 lr and .22 WMR.

I honestly don't like Ruger much, but they really do offer reliable/affordable rimfire guns.

 

[WeedWhacker]

I'm seriously reconsidering dismissing the .22LR out of hand. Sure, it's not what I'd choose, but then again, I don't mind the recoil of a 9mm.

I was disappointed with the Ruger .22LR pistol of unknown generation we rented though (I know rentals get abused) - jammed three or four times out of 100 rounds, NOT something which impressed me when we were discussing pistols for a self-defense role.

If I were to suggest a .22LR autoloader, it would *have* to be stone reliable. I'm reading up on the Browning Buckmark now. BTW, what's "wrong" with the Ruger MkIIIs? Folks seem to prefer the MkIIs which aren't made anymore...

 

[AJAX22]

I believe beretta makes a dandy little carbine in .22, if you just are looking for a step up cartridge for a handgun don't overlook .32 auto, its a good inbetween round. .380 can be ok, but I'd prefer a .32 over a .380 most times, try a colt pocket pistol, they are great.

for 22 pistols, its very hard to beat a ruger mkII autoloader, they just plain work. browning makes a benchmark that is pretty ok. and if you can find a colt woodsman, those are the cats pajamas, (so to speek). most of the carbines in 9mm are pretty decent, they don't make many of them that are junk anymore, even the hi points don't have too bad a rep.

the longer barrel and higher mass of the rifles should make up for the louder pop and the recoil should be manageable.

 

[Lupinus]

Start with .22lr

then if you are working with handguns step up to something with mild to moderate recoil like 9mm, .38, or .32 (the .32 to me is good because it offers pop but not a lot)

If rifles step up to a .223 or pistol caliber carbine, if you want to get into larger calibers a 30-30 is nice, it recoils but not as much as say a 30-06

 

[k_semler]

"Graduate" him to a rifle, and shoot 5.56x45 out of an AR15. It has pretty lame recoil, and can easily be handled by novices. I imagine you could fire it out of a pistol if you wanted, (if you could find one that actually fires it safely), as the recoil is so light.

 

[WeedWhacker]

Start with .22lr

then if you are working with handguns step up to something with mild to moderate recoil like 9mm, .38, or .32 (the .32 to me is good because it offers pop but not a lot)

We did that. The .22LR was described as "fun", which I found encouraging. I didn't have anything else other than 9mm, which was "not fun". I'm wary of .32 ACP due to rim-lock problems, but may have to look at it anyway. Lastly, the .38 is a revolver round, and while I recognize the value of revolvers, I am heavily biased in favor of modern semi-autos. Obviously, I could suggest a .380, and I'll do so if I'm able next time (I don't own a .380).

I may just need to give the .22LR pistol round time to grow on my friend, thinking that later, a bit more recoil won't be a problem after the .22LR has been gotten used to... A pistol form-factor is preferable at this point, due to self-defense of a home with fairly tight corridors being a primary consideration for its use.

 

[Tim Burke]

.380 ACP might be a viable option, IF you use a locked breech gun, for instance a Colt Government 380. In a blowback pistol, like a PPK, or a SIG 230 or 232, your student will likely think it is worse than the Glock.

 

[LoadedDrum]

4" Ruger SP101 in 32H&R would be something to consider

 

[CajunBass]

BTW, what's "wrong" with the Ruger MkIIIs? Folks seem to prefer the MkIIs which aren't made anymore...

I tihink the things most people say they don't like about the Ruger MK III are the magazine disconnect, and the loaded chamber indicator. I can't think of any other differences, but someone else may know of some. They say the trigger isn't as good on the MK III because of the mag disconnect, and they either don't like loaded chamber indicators in general, or they specifically don't likke the one on the MK III's.

I've got one of each. For shooting I don't see a dimes worth of difference. YMMV of course.

I suspect that the range guns you were shooting are dirty. My Rugers very seldom jam, even with cheap bulk ammo. The Ruger 22 isn't a very good self defense pistol anyway, because of it's size, although I suppose it coiuld be used as a house/car gun. My wife has a Bersa 22 Firestorm that is "Ivory Snow" reliable (99 44/100%) with CCI mini mags. It will jam with cheaper bulk ammo though.

9mm and 38 special are about as mild a recoiling handgun as you're going to find I would think. The 32 and 380 guns generally are so much smaller and lighter that they tend to kick just as hard, or harder than the heavier guns in a more powerful cartridge.

 

[hksw]

...my friend wanted to shoot a round out of my 9mm G17 - and didn't like the result.

What was it about the 9 mm that he and you (coming off of a .22 lr) didn't like? Was it the recoil? Accuracy? Noise?

3-4 rounds out of 100 isn't too far off in failures from what some of the very low end .22 lr ammo out there will produce, couple that with a range gun. What ammo were you using? IMO, the failures could be used as good exercise in knowing what to do when dealing with failures and how to quickly clear them in the event they occur. Every gun, even ones you will rely you life on, will eventually fail. It would be good to know what to do and do it quickly.

 

[Vonderek]

I dunno, if 9mm bothered him that much and he's comfortable with 22LR, then why push him? Maybe let him decide if and when he wants to move on to something bigger.

 

[Tom C.]

There are several issues here. One is increasing the caliber. The other is power if the rounds chosen in the larger caliber. After getting comfortable with the .22, the IMO, next logical step is to 9mm, .38. Which ever you prefer, begin with very mild ammo. If you don't reload, there probably is a wider selection of mild loads in .38. Weight of the gun is also a factor. If you have a choice, a heavier (within reason) gun would be preferred. I would prefer my S&W Model 27 over a Ruger SP101 or GP100.

 

[45Badger]

Start with a S&W Model 18, .22 cal, 4" barrel

Move up top a Model 15, .38 special, 4" barrel

Plenty of good learning to be had in those two guns. Usually very relaible, very accurate, and purty to look at!

 

[OldSchooler]

There isnt much beyond .22 LR/.22Mag in an autoloading handgun until you hit things like the .30 cal Tokarevs, .32 ACP. Alas, such things as the Toks and ACP's are either in guns that are small and/or quite sharp in terms of recoil for a neophyte.

There is the .25 ACP, but it normally is in lilliputian arms that are no better than what youve had up till now and often even worse. They can be hard just to hold onto, let alone fire with any result.

Have you tried a revolver? For many folks this is the ideal way to go. Simple to operate, reliable and with enough heft to tame a lot of recoil, they often have enough oomph to make some people outright blush.

On that note, I lke the .32 Mag, which will fire the .32 S&W, much as a .357 will happily digest .38 Specials; and, here, then is something Ive always wished for...

NOTE: TOPIC DE-RAIL AHEAD

I would like to see our makers revisit the concept of a .28-.32 cal round done up in a pot/camp revolver, perhaps even in a .32 rimfire, as blasphemous as that sounds. H&R was down that road with their .32 Mag, but now they're sadly defunct and there arent many guns in the chambering to be had that fill the bill. Ruger has a SA, in their Single Six (which are not widely available), and Taurus makes a snubbie. That's it for current production. You're going used if you want anything else in the caliber...and are in for a search.

The trend nowadays is to ever faster - note the emergence of things like the .17 rimfire and WSM's. But a moderate bullet at moderate velocity has always been useful and there used to be any number of them, back in great-granddads day. There actually was a .32 rimfire back then. In a 6" DA, it would suit well. Now, BTT...

Perhaps your friend needs a mild .38 target load or something like that, in a revolver. While you seem to be devoted to the autoloader-is-better idea, perhaps a wheelie is called for.

Something else to address is that some peple are put off by recoil in the beginning and the bark and flash so close to their face is disturbing.

If handguns are in the offing, then a mild .38 load sounds right. And make you work on basics like grip stance, etc. and be sure he understands what is going on, why it makes all the noise and kick and use good ear and eye protection.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

We did that. The .22LR was described as "fun", which I found encouraging. I didn't have anything else other than 9mm, which was "not fun". I'm wary of .32 ACP due to rim-lock problems, but may have to look at it anyway. Lastly, the .38 is a revolver round, and while I recognize the value of revolvers, I am heavily biased in favor of modern semi-autos. Obviously, I could suggest a .380, and I'll do so if I'm able next time (I don't own a .380).

The range where I shoot has a couple of Bersa Thunder .380s that they rent. Apparently novices, especially female, really like them because of the lack of recoil and muzzle blast. The owner says he sells a lot of them, and they are extremely reliable.

I think .380 ACP is the logical step beyond .22LR if your friend didn't care for 9mm. .25 auto and .32 ACP are less common and, as already pointed out, are typically found only in "Lilliputian" guns that were never intended to provide exceptional accuracy, only to make noise and throw small bullets a short distance in the general direction of an adversary.

Another possibility is a 1911 in 9mm. The recoil of a 9mm 1911 is neglibible (at least compared to a .45) because of the weight of an all steel pistol.

 

[Pistol Toter]

If your range has one, how about a .32 SW Long. They're mild, easy to fire and accurate. Standard Vel. .38 spl is pretty mild too.. Maybe your friend is not ready to progress; let he / she tell you when there ready to try something different. I they see you firing something else then they will eventually want to try it, just make them aware that it will be different. My youngest son kept after me to let him shoot a SxS 12ga, he was somewhat small in stature and I kept telling him, son that thing will kick the stuffings out of you. Finally one day I said OK, just be prepared, he was, and there has been no stopping him ever since. When your friends ready, they'll tell you, and won't matter if it's a howitzer.

 

[Vitamin G]

When i bring newbies, i also start with a .22lr pistol (Ruger mk II) and when they feel ready, i let them hold both a browning hi-power and a 1911, and let them shoot whichever feels more comfortable. For the BHP, they get WWB. If they pick the 1911, they get 200grSWC over 4.0gr of bullseye.

 

[dfaugh]

Seriously consider a carbine. I start with a .22 bolt (safety first, they have to work the bolt and/or load each shell) then we go to a .22 autoloader, THEN we go to the 9mm Hi-Point carbine (which has almost NO recoil). I've found that recoil isn't always the problem, but the louder (even with hearing protection, of course) 9mm cause them to want to a "back off"...Not nearly the problem with the carbine. THEN, when they are comfortable, transition to the handgun.

 

[moredes]

I like Vitamin G's advice. I've been teaching my wife to shoot over the last 6 weeks. We've been out about once a week. She hates guns, but she knows they're a necessity. She stands no chance unarmed and she knows it, so her dislike/distain to shooting practice is outweighed by her realization of her vulnerability. So she practices, grudgingly. She hates recoil almost as much as she hates guns.

I started her out on a Ruger Mk II. She's run about 500 rounds through it over 6-7 sessions, and has just been introduced to a 9mm BHP. She has small hands and the HP is a challenge to manipulate, but she's getting used to it, and her aversion for practice is slowly melting away. I start her off at every sesson with the Mk II first-- she's only shot about 75 rounds of 9mm over the last two sessions, but what was once completely objectionable is now a challenge, and she almost "contends" with it all. If she can deal with it--noise, recoil, weight, I think your friend can too, if the approach is right.

I'm hoping to get to the point where I can move her into and through .45acp 200 SWC 4.4 - 5.4 WW231 someday. I've got a 6" comped 1911 in mind that hopefully, will get her to the final stage--WW 230 Rangers in a 5" steel 1911.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Next trip to the range, do take some form of evil black assault rifle, too.

Just bring it out to the range and say something about yourself just shooting it later. Let 'em shoot the friendly .22s and something else reasonably tame. If one of the newbies asks about the EBR after shooting abit, reluctantly agree to let him shoot it. You might find they all want to shoot it and like it...

ARs are cool!

 

[learn2shoot]

Why Graduate?

I think this depends on your student. If he is comfortable with a .22 and does not want to graduate, pushing him into a larger caliber before he is ready may do more work to put him off guns, than anything else.

But... If he is bored with the .22 I would reccomend a light .38 Special in a large frame .357 gun (perhaps a 686+ 6 inch barrel) I would stay away from a .380 because (as stated by a previos poster) I have a SIG and the felt recoil in the 230 is greater than the recoil in the 92FS in 9mm. If you decide the .380 Colt might be the way to go try it before handing him the gun.

 

[RustyFN]

I am new on the gun scene. I bought a Ruger Mark III about a month ago. Out of 1500 rounds I had one fail to load that was my fault and one FTF that was a bad round. I don't have any experience with the Mark II but I have let some experienced shooters shoot my gun and they were surprised how nice the trigger was. I went to the range with a friend and he let me shoot his Walther P99 40 cal. It was an awesome gun but I thought it was to much for me right now. I want something more than my Ruger and have been looking at the CZ 75 SP-01 in 9mm. I guess the point I am trying to make is your friend will know best when it is time to move to a bigger calibre. Hope this helps.
Rusty

 

[ilbob]

I tihink the things most people say they don't like about the Ruger MK III are the magazine disconnect, and the loaded chamber indicator. I can't think of any other differences, but someone else may know of some. They say the trigger isn't as good on the MK III because of the mag disconnect, and they either don't like loaded chamber indicators in general, or they specifically don't likke the one on the MK III's.

I do not own a MKIII but am told the main reason they are not as popular as the MKII has to do with getting them back together after field stripping them for cleaning. I am told that it is not obvious how to get it back together.