NFA BATFE Letter On Handstop on AR Pistols..Hot off the Press

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Bmorall

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Hello Everyone..I just joined to share as definitive as an answer as can be expected from BATFE regarding adding handstops to an AR Pistol. The handstop in question is the XTM handstop kit with 2 knobs that many people on other forums seem to think turns it to an AOW or SBR. Well I sent BATFE an email last night and received an answer this morning..hole this helps you guys out like it helped me. uploadfromtaptalk1438022305139.jpg
Essentially, it states that the XTM handstop kit can be added without requirement of any tax stamp. uploadfromtaptalk1438022391430.jpg . I have included a screenshot of the letter as well as the handstop picture.
 
"We changed our minds, officer safety...children...assault nub..."

just kidding. How do you like the thing? I could see that being wedged against something (pivot point) more than it being an ergonomics device.
 
"We changed our minds, officer safety...children...assault nub..."

just kidding. How do you like the thing? I could see that being wedged against something (pivot point) more than it being an ergonomics device.
I love it..I have it on an Extar EXP(pure awesome) behind my laser and in front of a magwell grip..makes perfect gripping surface. Will post pictures later..
 
Great...all we need is another letter asking ATF to repeat a previous determination.

Bmorall Hello Everyone..I just joined to share as definitive as an answer as can be expected from BATFE regarding adding handstops to an AR Pistol. The handstop in question is the XTM handstop kit with 2 knobs that many people on other forums seem to think turns it to an AOW or SBR. Well I sent BATFE an email last night and received an answer this morning..hole this helps you guys out like it helped me.Attachment 212487
Essentially, it states that the XTM handstop kit can be added without requirement of any tax stamp.Attachment 212488. I have included a screenshot of the letter as well as the handstop picture.
FYI "handstops" and even angled forward grips have been perfectly fine with ATF for a number of years.

You haven't discovered anything new.
 
Well I sent BATFE an email last night
General inquisitiveness is the reason its now illegal to shoulder an AR pistol with a sig brace.

You haven't discovered anything new.
And you very easily could have gotten any pistol with an AFG on it declared an AOW.

PLEASE for the sake of all gun owners everywhere. DO NOT POKE THE BEAR.
 
General inquisitiveness is the reason its now illegal to shoulder an AR pistol with a sig brace.


And you very easily could have gotten any pistol with an AFG on it declared an AOW.

PLEASE for the sake of all gun owners everywhere. DO NOT POKE THE BEAR.
It wasn't "general inquisitiveness" it was specific interest on a specific part to keep me specifically out of jail if I added the handstop. It may help someone else who has seen nothing but ambiguous opinions all over these forums as to what can and can't be added.. the letter will do fine for me and hopefully others...
 
It wasn't "general inquisitiveness" it was specific interest on a specific part to keep me specifically out of jail if I added the handstop. It may help someone else who has seen nothing but ambiguous opinions all over these forums as to what can and can't be added.. the letter will do fine for me and hopefully others...
Handstop's and AFG's have been addressed in multiple letters before yours.

Specifically here:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/BiggBore/ATF letters/ATF-pistol-Q-1-web.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/BiggBore/ATF letters/ATF-pistol-Q-2-web.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/BiggBore/ATF letters/ATF-pistol-Q-3web.jpg

I understand that you had good intentions... but so did the people who kept writing the ATF asking if shouldering a sig-brace equipped pistol was legal. And you know how the path to ruin was paved...

Certainly if enough people ask, adding an AFG and placing your second hand upon it can constitute redesigning your pistol into an AOW, as by their definition, a pistol is designed to be fired with ONE hand.
 
Handstop's and AFG's have been addressed in multiple letters before yours.

Specifically here:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/BiggBore/ATF letters/ATF-pistol-Q-1-web.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/BiggBore/ATF letters/ATF-pistol-Q-2-web.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/BiggBore/ATF letters/ATF-pistol-Q-3web.jpg

I understand that you had good intentions... but so did the people who kept writing the ATF asking if shouldering a sig-brace equipped pistol was legal. And you know how the path to ruin was paved...

Certainly if enough people ask, adding an AFG and placing your second hand upon it can constitute redesigning your pistol into an AOW, as by their definition, a pistol is designed to be fired with ONE hand.
Definitely have seen that letter that addresses the Magpul AFG in question #7. Which generated my concern about the Magpul XTM handstop kit... Did not want to assume it covered both and end up in jail for 10+ yrs on an assumption in which a federal judge says "Sir ,you clearly have a Magpul XTM and not an AFG as addressed in this letter" I am no longer a risk taker when it comes to NFA regulations.
 
I have to agree that it's better to wander around in the dark on these things. Worst case scenario is that you'd inadvertently violate a federal law or two out of ignorance and possibly get arbitrarily prosecuted for it. But isn't that a much better avenue than to bother the authorities with all these questions? If you 'poke the bear', there's a chance it won't turn out for the best.
 
Not into being arbitrarily prosecuted as I knew someone who used an ATF letter for a non AOW that he assumed was close enough to his particular situation to go ahead and purchase a shotgun that was not the exact manufacturer of the one deemed "OK" in the letter...A traffic stop later and the assumed legal shotgun landed him in prison .. I will never again assume a similar product addresses my specific situation.
 
"It may help someone else"
You're wrong. The ATF does not define or set precedent, the letter you received was merely valid for you and that pistol only. The law-abiding gun owner community can 'infer' the ATF's current mindset from little sonar pings like yours to the Tech Branch, but they can quite literally change their mind on this or many other issues at any moment (or at any direction from Il Duce). Heck, even this determination is merely a sort of defense against conviction, rather than protection from prosecution; you could still be put through the wringer and possibly convicted despite the presence of that letter at a later date.

Pinging the ATF for your own personal stuff is not necessary, and not a good idea on the whole. The reason for seeking a determination is so you can make a ton of these and offer them to sale, since that situation is one where your actions would be placed under a microscope, and getting clarification ahead of time is a good idea (case in point, EP Armory not getting a reissued ruling when they went to change their poly receiver layout). But in terms of just covering your own butt, the letter doesn't even do a very good job at that (it definitely isn't any type of guarantee or protection, legally) and quite often brings about conflict with previous rulings, since apparently these letter writers don't talk to each other. Whenever conflict like that arises, it invariably is resolved in the direction of greater infringement on us and discretion for the ATF. DON'T DO IT UNLESS YOU NEED TO FOR BUSINESS!

"A traffic stop later and the assumed legal shotgun landed him in prison"
Source/news link? Seems excessive, even for the ATF, unless there was other stuff going on in that traffic stop. Usually it would seem you'd end up out the value of the confiscated shotgun, whatever it cost, court/attorney fees, some time, and at least a few new pairs of pants from terror of the whole experience and lingering psychological effects. Also possibly an implied (not 'official/legal') restriction on your future firearms use or rights.

"I am no longer a risk taker when it comes to NFA regulations"
It sucks, but it is honestly something of a cost of dipping a toe in that pond. Between all the potential for shenanigans in the registry, the application process, and the whole configuration aspect the law poorly addresses, there is still ample room for someone to make your life miserable. Most especially someone who quite literally arrests you falsely under some misunderstanding (which is why we keep documentation handy, but it's not like they're required to read it before booking us). Read The Trial by Kafka to understand the types of forces at play here; at some point, you've done all the due diligence you can do, and at that point have to rely upon the sanity of your fellow man and the law of averages and bears*

TCB

*outrunning the guy next to you, not the bear. By which I mean that if you do an honest effort at abiding the law, those who do not will attract more attention than you will, keeping you safer.

TCB
 
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"It may help someone else"
You're wrong. The ATF does not define or set precedent, the letter you received was merely valid for you and that pistol only. The law-abiding gun owner community can 'infer' the ATF's current mindset from little sonar pings like yours to the Tech Branch, but they can quite literally change their mind on this or many other issues at any moment (or at any direction from Il Duce). Heck, even this determination is merely a sort of defense against conviction, rather than protection from prosecution; you could still be put through the wringer and possibly convicted despite the presence of that letter at a later date.

Pinging the ATF for your own personal stuff is not necessary, and not a good idea on the whole. The reason for seeking a determination is so you can make a ton of these and offer them to sale, since that situation is one where your actions would be placed under a microscope, and getting clarification ahead of time is a good idea (case in point, EP Armory not getting a reissued ruling when they went to change their poly receiver layout). But in terms of just covering your own butt, the letter doesn't even do a very good job at that (it definitely isn't any type of guarantee or protection, legally) and quite often brings about conflict with previous rulings, since apparently these letter writers don't talk to each other. Whenever conflict like that arises, it invariably is resolved in the direction of greater infringement on us and discretion for the ATF. DON'T DO IT UNLESS YOU NEED TO FOR BUSINESS!

"A traffic stop later and the assumed legal shotgun landed him in prison"
Source/news link? Seems excessive, even for the ATF, unless there was other stuff going on in that traffic stop. Usually it would seem you'd end up out the value of the confiscated shotgun, whatever it cost, court/attorney fees, some time, and at least a few new pairs of pants from terror of the whole experience and lingering psychological effects. Also possibly an implied (not 'official/legal') restriction on your future firearms use or rights.

TCB
Appreciate the opinion, however as I stated before, this was a specific question for my specific situation and if this meant not installing the specific foregrip, then I wouldn't have done it.. For every post that says a handstop is legal and non nfa, there are 5 more that say they are illegal...I am specifically covering myself... but If anyone else who has an 8.5 inch barrel 18.5 inch OAL. AR pistol..and installs an XTM handstop kit...then this letter is better than a bunch of opinions floating around on forums as to its legality.
 
"It may help someone else"
You're wrong. The ATF does not define or set precedent, the letter you received was merely valid for you and that pistol only. The law-abiding gun owner community can 'infer' the ATF's current mindset from little sonar pings like yours to the Tech Branch, but they can quite literally change their mind on this or many other issues at any moment (or at any direction from Il Duce). Heck, even this determination is merely a sort of defense against conviction, rather than protection from prosecution; you could still be put through the wringer and possibly convicted despite the presence of that letter at a later date.

Pinging the ATF for your own personal stuff is not necessary, and not a good idea on the whole. The reason for seeking a determination is so you can make a ton of these and offer them to sale, since that situation is one where your actions would be placed under a microscope, and getting clarification ahead of time is a good idea (case in point, EP Armory not getting a reissued ruling when they went to change their poly receiver layout). But in terms of just covering your own butt, the letter doesn't even do a very good job at that (it definitely isn't any type of guarantee or protection, legally) and quite often brings about conflict with previous rulings, since apparently these letter writers don't talk to each other. Whenever conflict like that arises, it invariably is resolved in the direction of greater infringement on us and discretion for the ATF. DON'T DO IT UNLESS YOU NEED TO FOR BUSINESS!

"A traffic stop later and the assumed legal shotgun landed him in prison"
Source/news link? Seems excessive, even for the ATF, unless there was other stuff going on in that traffic stop. Usually it would seem you'd end up out the value of the confiscated shotgun, whatever it cost, court/attorney fees, some time, and at least a few new pairs of pants from terror of the whole experience and lingering psychological effects. Also possibly an implied (not 'official/legal') restriction on your future firearms use or rights.

"I am no longer a risk taker when it comes to NFA regulations"
It sucks, but it is honestly something of a cost of dipping a toe in that pond. Between all the potential for shenanigans in the registry, the application process, and the whole configuration aspect the law poorly addresses, there is still ample room for someone to make your life miserable. Most especially someone who quite literally arrests you falsely under some misunderstanding (which is why we keep documentation handy, but it's not like they're required to read it before booking us). Read The Trial by Kafka to understand the types of forces at play here; at some point, you've done all the due diligence you can do, and at that point have to rely upon the sanity of your fellow man and the law of averages and bears*

TCB

*outrunning the guy next to you, not the bear. By which I mean that if you do an honest effort at abiding the law, those who do not will attract more attention than you will, keeping you safer.

TCB
This traffic stop was actually a personal friend of mine..who had never had any legal issues whatsoever as an adult..and yes I too felt it was excessive as did his family. .there were no other extenuating circumstances to the traffic stop either... The shotgun was in a harness in an SUV and the officer spotted him and asked why he had a "sawed off shotgun" (which it was not sawed off) it was manufactured at this length....the shotgun in the letter had a birdshead Pistol grip while his had a traditional Pistol grip..this was the difference between him being convicted and acquitted as the ATF letter addressed the birdshead grip
 
Bmorall ...... For every post that says a handstop is legal and non nfa, there are 5 more that say they are illegal...
Where are all these Einsteins that claim a handstop is illegal?
I belong to and read dozens of firearm forums and have never seen anyone who made that claim.

If there are five times as many who say "it's illegal".........where do these numbskulls post such nonsense?
 
Bmorall ...... For every post that says a handstop is legal and non nfa, there are 5 more that say they are illegal...
Where are all these Einsteins that claim a handstop is illegal?
I belong to and read dozens of firearm forums and have never seen anyone who made that claim.

If there are five times as many "it's illegal".........where do these numbskulls post such nonsense?

I guess they never seen the SP89.......a production handgun with a factory handstop.


sp89.gif

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/h-k-uzi-s-mac-102012-06-22-04-48-57935374155/vector-arms-sp89-k-style-pistol-9mm-detail.html?Itemid=0

Or the CZ Scorpion EVO with FACTORY handstop:
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/cz-scorpion-evo-9mm-detail.html?Itemid=0
cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol-660x355.png
 
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I've never seen anyone claim a handstop was illegal. I was shocked when the atf decided the VFG was a handstop though.
 
Where are all these Einsteins that claim a handstop is illegal?
I belong to and read dozens of firearm forums and have never seen anyone who made that claim.

If there are five times as many who say "it's illegal".........where do these numbskulls post such nonsense?
uploadfromtaptalk1438036010348.jpg uploadfromtaptalk1438036028150.jpg [AT
Just a few of the einsteins...don't have time to post all the ambiguous opinions I've seen
 
Bmorall
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
Where are all these Einsteins that claim a handstop is illegal?
I belong to and read dozens of firearm forums and have never seen anyone who made that claim.
If there are five times as many who say "it's illegal".........where do these numbskulls post such nonsense?

Attachment 212495Attachment 212496[AT
Just a few of the einsteins...don't have time to post all the ambiguous opinions I've seen
A FIVE year old post on AR15?????
My gosh, do you know when Magpul came out with the AFG?
Google "Magpul AFG letter" and you'll find the letter ATF issued in 2010.
 
A FIVE year old post on AR15?????
My gosh, do you know when Magpul came out with the AFG?
Google "Magpul AFG letter" and you'll find the letter ATF issued in 2010.
Yep found it referencing the AFG...I have an XTM kit...was not going to take any chances with my freedom As I carry my concealed AR Pistol in a backpack pretty much everywhere I go.
 
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