No-Knock Warrants

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LOL..I find it awfullyu amusing, and very sad, that you assume that every warrant served is a no-knock, and that every no-knock is at that wrong house, and that "innocents" are on the other side, knitting quilts, and baking cookies, while singing show tunes. Thats not the way it is, my friend.

First off, nobody said anything about "every" warrant. Second, it is a fact that no-knock warrant serving has lead to the deaths of several innocent civilians, often due to PC being given by a paid informant with incentive to give an address and information to the police, but also all too often because of clerical errors and address "oopsie's" as well.

David Koresh could have been arressted at any time while out jogging. Think about that for a minute. (The guy had already had LEOs in his compound searching it before without violence, but then again, that time they knocked)
 
See, there you just lost every ounce of credibiity you might have had with me. Koresh chose how he wanted to go, and he went...good riddance...perhaps it couod have been handled differently..perhaps not..I dont know, but I shed no tears for that man, only the children involved.
 
None of us do because the LE agencies refuse to keep accurate records.
Warrants are signed by the Magistrate, and a return on the warrant is given to the Magistrate within 24 hours service. The COURTS maintain those records. The LE agencies aren't hiding anything.

This type of complaint is yet another example of someone who doesn't know how the system really works complaining about a non-existant problem.
 
LOL..I find it awfullyu amusing, and very sad, that you assume that every warrant served is a no-knock, and that every no-knock is at that wrong house, and that "innocents" are on the other side, knitting quilts, and baking cookies, while singing show tunes. Thats not the way it is, my friend.

In reality, 99.99% of police warrant services go by without a hitch...and you never, ever hear about those...its only the ones that the media deem "juicy" enough, the few that go wrong, that you hear about..and you illustrate exactly why. Mistakes happen...its life. They are unfortunate..very, very unfortunate, but they will happen. The alternative is not something I care to think about.
Great post, and as I said on the other thread, it's the extreme examples that will get debated everytime, not the ones that happen everyday with no problem.
 
Second, it is a fact that no-knock warrant serving has lead to the deaths of several innocent civilians . . .
It's a fact that knock and announce warrants have led to the death of many innocent cops.
 
liliysdad, if guns were declared illegal, would you support the use of no-knock warrants (given PC) to search for them? You claim marijuana possession is not a victimless crime; is gun ownership?
 
See, there you just lost every ounce of credibiity you might have had with me. Koresh chose how he wanted to go, and he went...good riddance...perhaps it couod have been handled differently..perhaps not..I dont know, but I shed no tears for that man, only the children involved.

WOW! From what I have read and heard the only reason the BATF had any concern for the children was to look good for the cameras when they saved them from this "cult." Exactly how accusations of child abuse are supposed to be addressed by a federal agency geared towards enforcement of acohol, tobacco and firearms laws still baffles me. That is the jurisdiction of state agencies.

Koresh may have made his choice... or maybe not. He definitely chose to make a stand for his principles and beliefs. Maybe you could care less if Koresh is dead but that whole fiasco should make us all a little nervous. There was a group of people practicing their religion and exercizing their second amendment rights and now most of them are dead. But hey, as long as it was for the children, right?!
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I didn't mean to hijack this thread but that comment really burned my butt.
 
lilysdad, the reference to Koresh is factual. There was an interview with the McClennan County sheriff a day or two after the BATF effort. He stated for the record that anytime he needed to talk to Koresh, "I called David and he'd come to my office." (A pretty darned close paraphrase of his words.)

But let's not digress into the Waco thing, okay?

Now: "The increasing trend in no-knoks, while nowere even remotely close to your exaggerated claims, is evident of the increasing severity of crimes committed."

lilysdad, you earlier responded to my question about more raids for smaller quantities of drugs, in the affirmative.

Question: Are you saying there are BOTH more small-quantity no-knock entries AND more no-knock entries for severe crimes? In your experience and in your local area?

I note that in two cases in California where people were killed or severely injured by wrongful police actions, it took lawsuits to get any redress. The trials were lengthy and bitter, and the state appealed in both instances. There was no voluntary effort at any redress at all. This has little to do with the LEOs, themselves, of course. To me it shows the arrogance of those having political power within the criminal justice system.

Now: Overall, lilysdad, I do believe that the vast majority of all warrants are handled properly. The big problem is that when any mistake is made, innocents commonly suffer, and "the system" immediately goes into CYA mode, stonewalling and denying.

Art
 
There was a group of people practicing their religion and exercizing their second amendment rights and now most of them are dead.
Oh please spare me this drivel as if Vernon Howell (aka David Koresh) and his followers were just innocent people practicing their religion and enjoying their love of the 2nd Amendment.

Howell, had decided to assemble an arsenal of illegal weapons which included:

WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND: TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS AND THE ILLEGAL WEAPONS RECOVERED

Machine Guns

The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified to fire in full automatic mode:

22 M-16 Type Rifles

20 AK-47 Type Rifles

2 Heckler and Koch SP-89

2 M-11/Nine

The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode.

Silencers

21 Sound suppressors or silencers

Hand Grenades

4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades


The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/treasury.html

But maybe Howell was just an innocent hobbyist who liked hand grenades, full-auto weapons, and silencers, and was so devoted to his RKBA that he thought he would ignore the law? redface.gif

[SARCASM] Sure because your average innocent hobbyist has violent shootouts with people over who will run the local church. [/SARCASM]:

Koresh had an affair with Lois, the geriatric prophetess and the couple travelled to Israel. She died in 1986, leaving Koresh and her son George to fight for control of the sect. Koresh stormed the compound, shot George in the chest and won. The new prophet was acquitted of attempted murder on a technicality.

http://www.thebiographychannel.co.uk/new_site/biography.php?id=776&showgroup=196

I also don't think innocent religious people and RKBA hobbyists have sex with children:
The following are excerpts from materials compiled by the FBI during the standoff providing examples of Koresh's historical (i.e., pre-February 28, 1993) sexual practices with young girls.

a) From ATF Affidavit in Support of Arrest of Koresh

From ATF Special Agent Aguilera's interview of former compound resident Jeannine Bunds, included in Agent Aguilera's affidavit in support of the Koresh arrest warrant, February 25, 1993:

"Ms. Bunds also told me that Howell had fathered at least fifteen (15) children with various women and young girls at the compound. Some of the girls who had babies fathered by Howell were as young as 12 years old. She had personally delivered seven (7) of these children.

According to Ms. Bunds, Howell annuls all marriages of couples who join his cult. He then has exclusive sexual access to the women. He also, according to Ms. Bunds, has regular sexual relations with young girls there. The girls' ages are from eleven (11) years old to adulthood."

b) From Interview by Texas Social Worker

Joyce Sparks, Children's Protective Services Investigations supervisor, Waco, interviewed a young girl, a former compound resident, on February 22, 1993:

"[She] entered the cult when she was about three or four years old. . . .

We asked her if she could think of any reason that any of the children at the compound would not be safe and as we got into this discussion, she brought up the topic of sexual abuse. She described herself as special and treated differently than other children. She talked about spending time alone with David and although this was 'scary' she felt 'privileged.'

She explained to us that on one occasion, when she was ten years old, her mother left her in a motel room with David Koresh. He was in bed and he told [her] to come over to him. She got into the bed. David had no pants on. He took off her panties and touched her and then got on top of her. . . .

We talked about how she was feeling when this happened and she responded . . . 'scared.' When asked what else she felt, she responded . . . 'privileged.' When asked what David would do if he knew she was telling us about this, [she] rolled her eyes and said . . . 'I wouldn't even want to think about it.'

We asked if she knew about any other girls who had experienced this and she said yes. She reported that she knew about Michelle Jones. When asked how she knew this, she explained that David had talked about having sex with Michelle when she was fourteen. He told in a Bible study once what it was like when he had sex with Michelle."

Michelle Jones died inside the compound on April 19, 1993.

c) From 1990 Affidavit of Former Davidian Ian Manning

"I was told that Vernon was sleeping with Michelle Jones, now currently fifteen years of age. . . .

I have seen Aisha Gyarfas come out of various rooms with Vernon where he slept that night. Vernon brags about having slept with her. She is now only fourteen years of age."

Aisha Gyarfas died inside the compound on April 19, 1993.

d) From 1990 Affidavit of Former Davidian Alison Manning

"Vernon claims to have permission from God to have more than one wife and although he is legally married to one woman (Rachel Olivia Jones) he has sexual relations . . . with other women -two of which were minors at the time of his first encounters with Vernon has also discussed his relations with Aisha Gyarfas (an Australian girl of fourteen years of age), stating that on their first sexual encounter her heart was beating so fast and hard he could hear it. Once taken as his new 'wife' these girls were involved in continuing relations with Vernon, intermittently being taken into his bedroom to spend the evening with him."

http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacoseven.html

. . . and:
Koresh ordered the men in the cult to be celibate and took some of their wives and daughters to be his own wives. Jewell became Koresh's youngest "bride" when she was just 10, and would later testify in Congress that Koresh molested her at a motel. She told Primetime she was not upset at the time. "I had been trained from a very early age that this was a good thing," she said.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco315.html

. . . and this:
They say Koresh taught his followers - even the youngsters - how to commit suicide. "You didn't want to stick the gun to your temple because you might live. You wanted to stick it in your mouth and point up," Kiri Jewell, now 22 and a Michigan college student, told ABC's "PrimeTime" Thursday. "He never was very specific, but at some point we were gonna have to die for him. I didn't expect to live past 12."

Jewell left the compound in 1992, but her mother died in the standoff's fiery end. In a 1995 congressional hearing, a teenage Jewell recalled how Koresh began having sex with her when she was 10. . .

http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco319.html

. . . and this:
A FOURTEEN-YEAR OLD girl has helped to demolish the myth that the dead Branch Davidian cult leader David Koresh was a martyr destroyed by a ruthless FBI operation at Waco, Texas, in April 1995.

In evidence to Congress, which is investigating the episode, Kiri Jewel described how the self-proclaimed messiah used the sect as a cover for rape. . .

. . . Kiri said that she slept with Koresh and her mother in one bed. She recalled a childhood friend who, at the age of 14, "has a baby for David".

There was an uneasy silence in the congressional chamber as Kiri began to talk of her first sexual encounter with the cult leader at a motel in Waco when she was 10. . .

. . . Recounting more of her sexual initiation, she said that he used Biblical quotations to explain himself. He told her that, "King David from the Bible would sleep with young virgins to keep him warm."


She said: "I had known this would happen sometime, so I just laid there and stared at the ceiling. I was 10 when this happened."

http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco4.html

[SARCASM] Yeah, a bunch of people practicing their religion and enjoying their RKBA. [/SARCASM]

While the whole thing was a tragedy, let's not pretend that Howell et al, were martyrs for the RKBA cause, let's not pretend ATF didn't have a reason to serve both of those warrrants - yeah they were serving a search warrant, which meant they had to go to the place Howell had begun referring to as Ranch Apocalypse. So forget about just picking him up in town, the SEARCH warrant required them to search at the "Ranch." Let's also not forget that if Howell et al hadn't murdered 4 agents and wounded 16 others, none of the other events would have happened. Yes, it was a huge tragedy, but that tragedy was caused by the illegal acts of Howell and his followers.

I too am sorry to take this discussion off track, but that whole post "really burned my butt."
 
The thing that concerns me about a no-knock warrant, is that it doesn't give the homeowners a proper chance to identify the people invading their home as police.

This puts the poilce and the homeowners at greater risk.

It's likely true that no-knock warrants increase officer safety in the majority of situations, however there was recently a story of a guy fired at police officers as they broke down his door. He says he didn't realize they were the police, and dropped his gun as soon as he realized they were the police.

The police had knocked and shouted police within 5 seconds of breaking down the door, but the warrant was executed early in the morning when the occupants were asleep. It's not unlikely that the homeowner didn't hear or at least understand the shout of "police" because he was asleep.

The warrant was issued because the homeowner's son sold an informant a small amount of pot from that home. That son did not live there, and wasn't there at the time of the raid.

Luckily the homeowner missed, and no one was hurt, however the homeowner was charged for firing on the police that were invading his home looking for someone that didn't live there.

That is obviously an unusual situation, but my point is that if the police don't knock and give the occupants a chance to realize that they are the police, they are at risk of being shot by a homeowner who is merely protecting their home.
 
Respect, sheesh

You want respect, stop sounding like a reactionery whackjob who lives in Candyland. Y'all need to wakeup and smell the meth lab. Cowboy up, go on a couple months ride along, attend a civilian police academy, work a couple years in the field, and then your drivel migh have a shred of cred.

But stop wanting us to kiss your civilian asses, cause it's gonna get bit.
 
And to think, there was a time in this country when the respect for police officers was warranted

Respect for police, speaking generally, is still warranted.

Request:

It would be nice to see a thread maintain a civil discussion of the topic rather than topple over into unsubstantive insults. As they said in Star Wars: "Stay on target."

Opinion on No-Knock Warrants:

Personally speaking, as a civilian, I am adamantly opposed to most uses of no-knock warrants. I would only support their use in kidnapping or hostage situations.
 
You want respect, stop sounding like a reactionery whackjob who lives in Candyland. Y'all need to wakeup and smell the meth lab. Cowboy up, go on a couple months ride along, attend a civilian police academy, work a couple years in the field, and then your drivel migh have a shred of cred.

But stop wanting us to kiss your civilian asses, cause it's gonna get bit.

Some of us have "cowboyed up" before. 4 years in the corps, service in Panama and the Gulf and a few years helping train police while I went to school after getting out. I am not impressed by people who think that drugs are so evil that they have to kick down people's doors. In fact, I am in favor of not allowing no-knock warrants to be a part of our huge law enforcement bonaza that we call the "war on drugs."

As for Koresh, I noticed that none of the LEOs addressed the fact that Koresh was willingly allowing LEOs onto his property before the no-knock raid that led to so many deaths.

Fact: Koresh's cult had not done anything with their alleged illegal arsenal.

Fact: The BATFE has no buisness doing anything about the alleged child abuse that was taking place.

Fact: Any homeowner who is law-abiding and confronted with a no-knock situation would be justified in killing the home invaders.

Fact: A homeowner who killed someone because of a police department no-knock mix-up would likely end up dead, and if not, in prison.


Those facts are all I need to know about no-knocks. Is there a place for no-knock warrants? Sure. Should the threshold needed to obtain one be a whole lot higher than it currently is? Yes. Should people be held CRIMINALLY liable for mistakes that result in injury or property damage to law abiding civilians? Yes.
 
The problem is many people here do not know what the target is, they just make it up as they go along. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but that doesnt mean their opinion has any merit or validity. Remember the old saw, opinions and anuses........

This is a pointless as me trying to tell an electrician how to wire my house. I've spent years learning this stuff, years doing this stuff, and more years teaching others to do it. It is just a skosh more complex than something that can be bantered about on a forum. No one here is offering anything new, they are just recycling old arguments based on emotion, stereotype, and bias. Enough already.
 
But stop wanting us to kiss your civilian asses, cause it's gonna get bit.

No one asked for a demeaning ass kissing just a higher level of accountability when forced to use such high risk methods of capturing criminals.

This is a pointless as me trying to tell an electrician how to wire my house.
This is where I concede to your expertise and expect you to give same. If I ???? up and burn your house down with your whole family inside I would expect to be severely punished for my negligence, not make excuses like "the house should not have been made with wood". Sound familiar ?
I have a conscience that does not allow me to fudge the details lest I harm an innocent person.
 
The discussion to this point has been interesting if not too productive, on this thread as well as the previous related threads.

One thing that I see as a problem isn't the use of no-knock warrants but the increasing use of no-knocks for more and more offenses. This is paralled by the increasing militarization of the police in general. This trend is a huge problem that will continue to cause friction between the police and the rest of us if it isn't stopped. It won't be stopped.

Now to ramble a bit and cover several points scattered through the discussion.

Oh please spare me this drivel as if Vernon Howell (aka David Koresh) and his followers were just innocent people practicing their religion and enjoying their love of the 2nd Amendment.

The attitude here is troubling to me. The police are to be judge, jury and EXECUTIONER now? That is a trend that has to be fought if the country itself is to be preserved.

Timing of the entry has been corrupted by the lawyers to become rediculous. 5 sec? 30 sec? In the real world either one is a no-knock warrant. It would take me minutes to get out of bed and dressed before opening a door. It is obvious the intent is to catch people in their beds asleep. If you do this expect to be shot at. Of coure this gives the police the excuse to shoot the suspect if that is the intent.

I note that in two cases in California where people were killed or severely injured by wrongful police actions, it took lawsuits to get any redress. The trials were lengthy and bitter, and the state appealed in both instances. There was no voluntary effort at any redress at all. This has little to do with the LEOs, themselves, of course. To me it shows the arrogance of those having political power within the criminal justice system.

This is one of my pet peeves. The police have no MORAL right to destroy PRIVATE PROPERTY in the execution of any warrant. The fact that they seem to think they do is an indication of their attitude towards the people they claim to serve.
 
But stop wanting us to kiss your civilian asses, cause it's gonna get bit.

Gee, no 'us versus them' attitudes around here huh? (both sides BTW):rolleyes:

I suggest both sides stop this silly nonsense!!!!!!

The vast majority of police are just regular joes doing a nasty, dirty, difficult job. We should honor them for that. They are not JBTs, Nazis, or whatever other name you want to call them. Stop that stuff!

On the other hand, police officers need to wake up to the fact that they have a serious PR problem, one element of which is the 'no-knock' warrant, the mistakes made with same, and the police dept./politicians CYA attitude.
Your ARE public servants, which means that you MUST consider your image -- you just can't say "you don't understand" and dismiss public input.

"Civilians (I hate that term in this context) " need to give the cops a break, and the cops need to clean up their own house. We non-leos should not make judgements based on one incomplete, biased, and/or erroneous newspaper article, and the leo's should be ready and willing to come down hard on cops that make stupid mistakes or abuse their authority.

Here is a suggestion -- "no-knocks" only for hostage situations, barricaded subjects, and demonstrably violent offendors. For anything else, knock-and-announce. If they flush the junk down the toilet, that is good. Just that much less "on-the-streets". Get them the next time. Small price to pay, IMHO, to limit possible abuses.
 
Where's the Beef?

Show me the data that indicates that more no-knocks are being done, that there are "new" offenses that no-knocks are being done on now that they were not in the past, and that police are becoming more "militarized." In fact, may of us in the field would claim that the LE field in general are becoming less militarized. 50 years ago the norm was that every officer hired had been in the military, today many officers have not. The concepts of Community Oriented Policing, Problem Oriented Policing, COMPSTAT and all of the other things like mandated sensitivity training and diversity training were unheard of. American LE is arguably less "militarized" now than it has ever been.
 
Here is a suggestion -- "no-knocks" only for hostage situations, barricaded subjects, and demonstrably violent offendors. For anything else, knock-and-announce. If they flush the junk down the toilet, that is good. Just that much less "on-the-streets". Get them the next time. Small price to pay, IMHO, to limit possible abuses.

No way I am gonna risk evidence disposal to guard against being offensive. A search warrant is just that..SEARCH..not warn and let them dispose of the bad stuff...
 
As for Koresh, I noticed that none of the LEOs addressed the fact that Koresh was willingly allowing LEOs onto his property before the no-knock raid that led to so many deaths.
That's a BS lie Howell told during negotiations after the initial shootout. The truth is ATF had an undercover agent inside the compound, and Howell was never going to allow a search of the property.

Fact: Koresh's cult had not done anything with their alleged illegal arsenal.
Wrong, they assembled that arsenal in violation of Title 18 of the US Code. There were legal ways to obtain those weapons yet they didn't do it. I find it ironic that you say that hadn't done anything, yet acknowledge it as an "illegal arsenal."

Fact: The BATFE has no buisness doing anything about the alleged child abuse that was taking place.
ATF, or any other LE agency, doesn't just ignore other illegal acts when investigating crimes within their primary jurisdiction. The other crimes committed by Howell, showed he was dangerous, justifying even more concern about the illegal arsenal. That information was being gathered for possible prosecution by state authorities.

Fact: Any homeowner who is law-abiding and confronted with a no-knock situation would be justified in killing the home invaders.
Be careful drawing blanket statements. There are cases that have gone both ways in the courts.

Fact: A homeowner who killed someone because of a police department no-knock mix-up would likely end up dead, and if not, in prison.
Not even close to being a fact, just a wild assumption on your part. There is no proof that this is true - why? Because it's not.
 
Personal opinion:
If "no knock" raids are so rare, and "no knock" raids involving innocent people through faulty intel or simple mistakes are even more rare, and "no knock" raids which cause injury or death to innocents are somehow more rare yet, why is it so hard for police to say "If we screw up, we'll do our best to make things right."? Or "You've given us this powerful tool that we think makes our job safer, so if we abuse it we must be held responsible for our failure."?

I hate to see posts on here that say "Hey COPS! If you break into my home at 3AM, I'm going to blow you away!", but there's something to consider about that. If you accidentally break into an innocent person's home, and they shoot before you identify yourself as a police officer (or before their sleepy brain registers it, and maybe if they can't believe you due to police imposters), they have done nothing wrong in my opinion as you initiated the violence. If you kill them in self defense, you and/or the person who ordered you to go in are guilty of murder, in my eyes.

I know your primary goal is to go home to your family no matter what the cost to anyone else, but I have a similar survival goal. Respect mine and I'm more than happy to respect yours.

I carry a gun according to the laws of my state. If at any time I am neglient and harm an innocent with that powerful tool, I will be and should be held responsible.

Do it right, and you have my blessing. For what that's worth. Screw up, and at least be honorable enough to admit your mistake, go out of your way to make things right and accept the punishment that you would help mete out on others if they screwed up.

Simple as that.
 
JHC on a Crutch!!!!

Have you SEEN the size of payouts and awards that result from those cases? You wanna know why you never hear an apology? Ask a lawyer what happens when somebody apologizes, no matter how careful they were, regardless of whether the action was in good faith or properly motivated. Seriously, ask one of the Bar members here how much civil litigation erupts out of these cases. Ask'em if they want their client to "apologize".

Here's a fun little experiment to try - go out and get shot by a cop. Lawyers'll be lined up at the ER door waiting for your squad to arrive. Listen to the figures they toss out. The worse off you are, the better they like it. If they're luckly, you'll come with a trifecta, a pregnant wife and a toddler - jury's eat'em up

Your feelings hurt by the big bad pig? Toughen up, life is'nt perfect. You can do better, do it.
 
Your feelings hurt by the big bad pig? Toughen up, life is'nt perfect. You can do better, do it.
*laugh*
Fair enough. Of course, I was more concerned with the police responses on this forum as opposed to apologizing for personal failures (with the exception of the accepting punishment bit).

Read much Carnegie, do you?
 
liliysdad,

No way I am gonna risk evidence disposal to guard against being offensive. A search warrant is just that..SEARCH..not warn and let them dispose of the bad stuff...

I understand that there is a need to perserve evidence, but in the majority of these cases can the occupants really destroy much evidence in the short amount of time it takes to knock and properly announce the it's the police breaking in? If it takes 15, 20, or even 30 seconds to do that, how much evidence can they destroy?

Sure they can flush small quantities of drugs, but if they're dealing they aren't going to be able to dispose of a sizable stash quickly. Is a small stash really worth the risk that a no-knock warrant places people in?

The issue of officer safety seems more serious to me. Giving a dangerous criminal an oppertunity to arm themselves before you enter isn't a good thing. I'm sure there are cases where a no-knock warrant is needed. However, in those cases, maybe additional measures can be used to reduce the danger to everyone involved.

Flash-bangs can be used in some situations to stun occupants which can be safer for both officers and occupants. Tasers might be appropriate to disable a stunned occupant that is armed, though that does seem risky.

The problem with no-knock warrants is that both the occupant and the police can do everything right, and either can still end up dead.

If you want to push for using no-knock warrants, you have to recognize those risks, and understand that an officer may die from the innocent acts of a homeowner protecting themself. Officers may kill an innocent homeowner who is attempting to protect themself.

No-knock warrants need to be used with extreme care and should require strong evidence, because of what can happen when things go wrong.
 
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